Game of Thrones General (Non-Book Related) Discussion Thread - Part 1

[JimThompson]

Watching it again, I'm realizing that one of the more blatant mistakes in how the episode was written is Sam presenting Tyrion with the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book. I get that Tyrion not being mentioned in the book was supposed to be a "ha ha" moment but logically it makes no sense. Tywin Lannister's death is a major focal point in the events that happened from Robert's death until then, and why wouldn't it be mentioned that he was murdered by Tyrion? To a slightly lesser degree, Tyrion would have also been mentioned quite a bit in regards to Joffrey's death, even though he had no involvement.

One of the things that really bothered me about the last couple of seasons of this show was that, while it was often visually spectacular to look at, it just as often had plot elements that made no sense. GoT, to me, became an example of style over substance.

 

[FTCBIRDMAN]

If you honestly believe this, you haven't been paying attention. Which is my biggest problem with a lot the criticism that's been thrown. People either haven't been paying attention or they think they're own headcanon is fact. Dany was ALWAYS going to burn King's Landing to the ground.

I'm getting extra tired of people telling other people they haven't been paying attention. Lots of people didn't see Dany's turn coming. At least not the way it played out. People need to stop insulting people just because they think they saw something different than the other people saw. It's getting beyond ridiculous

 

[Donner]

I'm getting extra tired of people telling other people they haven't been paying attention. Lots of people didn't see Dany's turn coming. At least not the way it played out. People need to stop insulting people just because they think they saw something different than the other people saw. It's getting beyond ridiculous

I agree. Emilia Clarke didn't even see it coming and she is Dany.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I mean, if it was Eva Braun killing Hitler in that exact same way Jon killed Dany after his first big act of genocide I don’t think anyone in their right mind would condemn her for that. Gender should not factor into tyrannicide.

 

[Donner]

I mean, if it was Eva Braun killing Hitler in that exact same way Jon killed Dany after his first big act of genocide I don’t think anyone in their right mind would condemn her for that. Gender should not factor into tyrannicide.

Dany and Hitler are not even remotely the same.

It's just a reoccurring problem with D&D's writing. They wrote one of the actresses (Ros) off the show because she didn't want to do sex scenes anymore (and had Joffrey kill her with his crossbow), they made the scene between Jaime and Cersei a rape scene even though it was meant to be consensual, Dany and Drogo's wedding night was supposed to be consensual and not rape, they admitted to having Ramsay rape Sansa to "show off" Sophie Turner's talents, and so on.

Jon embracing Dany and then killing her is just another cringy moment that the writers came up with. And it sounds like it was meant to be a scene for Jaime and Cersei. It's ****ed.

 

[ludovica]

I mean, if it was Eva Braun killing Hitler in that exact same way Jon killed Dany after his first big act of genocide I don’t think anyone in their right mind would condemn her for that. Gender should not factor into tyrannicide.

I may concede her that there is a preexisting problematic iconography, but this instance is not one of those cases.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
...
Oh, there again we go with the phallic iconography. [jk]

 

[ludovica]

Dany and Hitler are not even remotely the same.

It's just a reoccurring problem with D&D's writing. They wrote one of the actresses (Ros) off the show because she didn't want to do sex scenes anymore (and had Joffrey kill her with his crossbow), they made the scene between Jaime and Cersei a rape scene even though it was meant to be consensual, Dany and Drogo's wedding night was supposed to be consensual and not rape, they admitted to having Ramsay rape Sansa to "show off" Sophie Turner's talents, and so on.

Jon embracing Dany and then killing her is just another cringy moment that the writers came up with. And it sounds like it was meant to be a scene for Jaime and Cersei. It's ****ed.

I agree with your criticism of some of their previous choices, some quite worse and more alarming than others.
That said, I think you are projecting way more questionable and intentional meaning on that scene than was intended on their part.

And that's why IMO you overreacted to whoever appreciated that scene, which instead, again IMO of course, is one of the more agreeable choices made with Dany.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Dany and Hitler are not even remotely the same.

It's just a reoccurring problem with D&D's writing. They wrote one of the actresses (Ros) off the show because she didn't want to do sex scenes anymore (and had Joffrey kill her with his crossbow), they made the scene between Jaime and Cersei a rape scene even though it was meant to be consensual, Dany and Drogo's wedding night was supposed to be consensual and not rape, they admitted to having Ramsay rape Sansa to "show off" Sophie Turner's talents, and so on.

Jon embracing Dany and then killing her is just another cringy moment that the writers came up with. And it sounds like it was meant to be a scene for Jaime and Cersei. It's ****ed.

I would argue that the show very much intends for Dany to evoke Hitler and other European fascists by that point. You might argue that it happened way too fast or was too on the nose (it was) but that at least seems to be the narrative intent.

And yes, D&D are terrible in their treatment of women. I also wouldn’t be surprised if they’re more than a little bit racist given the Confederate project. I won’t dispute how problematic they are (I’ve been banging this drum since season 5), but that scene with Jon/Dany in a bubble doesn’t strike me as sexist or misogynistic. Embracing a loved one as you kill them is a pretty old trope, and I’m not sure that it’s unrealistic to what a person would do in that kind of ****ed up situation.

 

[TheVileOne]

Dany's big speech moment was clearly meant to be reminiscent of a Nazi/nuremberg speech.

 

[Donner]

I would hope it's unrealistic. I have always hated the idea of telling someone you love them and then killing them and being a hero for it. Logan and Dark Phoenix, Buffy and Angel, now this. It means that you have the right to kill as long as you personally believe it's for the best. I'm not a fan.

 

[ludovica]

I would hope it's unrealistic. I have always hated the idea of telling someone you love them and then killing them and being a hero for it. Logan and Dark Phoenix, Buffy and Angel, now this. It means that you have the right to kill as long as you personally believe it's for the best. I'm not a fan.

Wait.
The point of the scene we are talking about is exactly the opposite.
Jon kills Dany to stop her from continuing to murder people(s) in the name of knowing best.
Jon tries to dissuade her but she explicitly confirms to him that his fears are not just ideas in his head but surely upcoming events if he does not act.
So he does not act based on what he believes but based on what amounts to more or less fact at that point.

This has no bearing on your opinion of how the scene is realized or its quality, or the trope, I am talking about the explicit content of the audiovisual text. It is quite heavy handed at that.

 

[ludovica]

Dany's big speech moment was clearly meant to be reminiscent of a Nazi/nuremberg speech.

Yep, whatever one thinks of the choice, I think it is not really possible to overlook the purposeful way in which the scene is staged and blocked by the camera.
Again, it may be a poor choice, a forced parallel, overtly heavy handed, but it is there.
Personally I found it fitting and enough within reason and taste, but it is always a field to navigate with tact.

 

[Joe Von Zombie]

It's a question of what they were foreshadowing. Obviously, they've hinted at Dany being harsh with her enemies. But massacring thousands of unarmed men, women, and children? That is very out of character for Dany, and it was presented in such a way that she literally went crazy, because the city had surrendered. There was no tactical advantage here, where there had always been one before. Obviously it came off this way because it was so rushed. If it had been given time, and she transformed into an evil Dragon Queen after taking the crown... that'd be another story.

So IMO, you saying...' oh it's been highly hinted that Dany would become a Mad Queen'.... I say....ehhh sort of. It hinted that Dany would be a tyrannical ruler... not a homicidal maniac for absolutely no reason. Being quick to anger or having a large temper is one thing.... indiscriminately killing whoever you see is something else.

If anything, they went out of their way to present Dany as a hero as deliberate misdirection to this moment. Dany is a liberator... a champion of the common man. She fought tirelessly to take King's Landing without causing unnecessary death, only to turn at the flip of a hat... and deliberately kill innocent people, for no other reason than pure blood lust. Was that foreshadowed? If so... they did a poor job of it, IMO.

I think I've found the disconnect. I've never viewed Dany as a heroic character. For a time she was the least terrible option, but her ruthlessness was apparent fairly early on and it only got worse as the show went on. I personally feel that they played their hand really early with where they were going to go with her. It was what I was expecting to happen in the end. Was it rushed? Absolutely. Was it excuted as well as it should have been? Absolutely not. That's where the missing 20 or so episodes come into play.

 

[ludovica]

I think I've found the disconnect. I've never viewed Dany as a heroic character. For a time she was the least terrible option, but her ruthlessness was apparent fairly early on and it only got worse as the show went on. I personally feel that they played their hand really early with where they were going to go with her. It was what I was expecting to happen in the end. Was it rushed? Absolutely. Was it excuted as well as it should have been? Absolutely not. That's where the missing 20 or so episodes come into play.

20 missing episodes seems too much, it would have been boring. But a couple, or half a dozen, more episodes would have done wonders.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Emilia Clarke watched video of Hitler to prepare for Daenerys’ big speeches

 

[Mani-Man]

Emilia Clarke watched video of Hitler to prepare for Daenerys’ big speeches

You have to admit, the speech was chilling...its one of the few things i thought were really strong in the finale.
Because the mood and all, if they would have done more to work towards this then it would have been so incredible.
That they pretty much flung **** at the wall and hoped it would stick doesnt change how strong the scene was.

And i find the idea really interesting where she looked for getting the feeling for such a scene.

 

[ludovica]

Emilia Clarke's comments there should put an end to any misconstruction of her other remark that she stands by Daenerys' choices until the very end: she obviously meant that she thought the throughline of her character was consistent from start to finish, she never intended to interpret Dany as a martyr, it should be quite self evident now.

 

[Greens]

I would hope it's unrealistic. I have always hated the idea of telling someone you love them and then killing them and being a hero for it. Logan and Dark Phoenix, Buffy and Angel, now this. It means that you have the right to kill as long as you personally believe it's for the best. I'm not a fan.

Uhh... have you seen what world this show takes place in? People ain't got no time for 2019 morals like that in Westeros. Jon was a hero in this case, yes. He killed a mass murderer.

 

[jolldan]

 

[lime]

Mark my words, in a year people will start to appriciate the final season and will miss GOT.

In my mind there is no doubt this will go down in history as the greatest TV series of all time.

PS: Now I look for July and the Emmy nominations. Emillia has never been more deserving of a nominations. And Peter Dinklage MUST win with that finale as his tape.

 

[BatLand]

Even if this is the end GRRM intented, the journey on how to get there is vastly different.

It's like George and D&D all have the same destination to go to, but GRRM has a paper map, drives around getting lost and distracted by every little thing along the way and taking different routes which lead him nowhere near his destination.

Whereas D&D just hopped on a tank and drove straight through buildings and any other obstacles to get there as fast as they could, blowing s*** up on the way 'cause it's cool.

 

[JimThompson]

Whereas D&D just hopped on a tank and drove straight through buildings and any other obstacles to get there as fast as they could, blowing s*** up on the way 'cause it's cool.

Some of that, but you have to admit some of the destruction was quite artful. I mean, just consider how precise the building falling on Jamie and Cersei actually was. If they move just a couple of meters to the left, they would have survived.

 

[BatLand]

Some of that, but you have to admit some of the destruction was quite artful. I mean, just consider how precise the building falling on Jamie and Cersei actually was. If they move just a couple of meters to the left, they would have survived.

It's like they really needed Tyrion to find them easily or something.

 

[Mani-Man]

Even if this is the end GRRM intented, the journey on how to get there is vastly different.

It's like George and D&D all have the same destination to go to, but GRRM has a paper map, drives around getting lost and distracted by every little thing along the way and taking different routes which lead him nowhere near his destination.

Whereas D&D just hopped on a tank and drove straight through buildings and any other obstacles to get there as fast as they could, blowing s*** up on the way 'cause it's cool.

Pretty much yeah.
I mean Mad Queen Daenerys is the most likely outcome in general, but the journey towards it will be different i think.
More importantly is the difference in the approach.
Yeah Martin has put himself a limit on how many books he wants to make, just like D&D decided that season 8 is the last.
But Martin still doesnt rush through it and forces anything, he lets the characters tell the story and not the story tell how the characters behave and need to be.

The difference is that Martins storytelling is "organic" while D&Ds is forced by the plot.
Which is not even unique because often Book writers or comic writers give it all more time to put the characters in the driver seat.
Tv shows dont have the luxury too often, there the plot needs to stand and the characters need to be built around it.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Guys, stop with the bickering and throwing out labels like they're candy. We can argue about whether what Jon did was right without demeaning women or labeling people as sexist blindly. There are more constructive, and frankly more intelligent ways to convey your points than mudslinging and condescension. Find other tactics. Next time, I won't just go on a deletion spree and call it a day. Points will be awarded next time.

Thank you