Game of Thrones General (Non-Book Related) Discussion Thread - Part 1

That was just talk. The second example especially. She was trying to strong arm her way into Carth.

Talk is easy, but actually slaughter hundreds of thousands of civilians with dragon fire is a whole other level.[/quote]

Again, it turns out it wasn't. And I believe you've read the books. Did you really think it was just "talk" there where they don't have the sweeping heroic music and you see her having "visions" (or delusions) in the final book before deciding "Fire and blood" in her last chapter?

This is the woman that crucified thousands because of their treatment of the innocent. This is the woman that locked her babies up because of a single dead child. This is the woman that agonized over executing a single commoner for crimes so that she wouldnt appear partisan. This is the woman that stood up to a doth raki that was trying to rape a woman. This is the woman that freed thousands or millions in Essos and outlawed slavery everywhere she went. This is the woman that repeatedly refused to reopen the fighting pits because the fighting pits and what they represented were antithetical to her ideas. It took repeated pressure and threat before she caved. Prior to episode 5 she had a temper and strong morals and goals. But what she did in Episode five was so far beyond that that it only makes sense as a sudden acute mania brought on by emotional trauma and depression. Ir wasnt a bloodthirsty nature that naturally developed.

This is the woman who crucified hundreds because she assumed they were all guilty for the treatment of innocent. As it turned out at least one (so probably more than one) was opposed to slavery in the same way there were rich Americans who were abolitionists. She didn't care that much afterward and then burned another rich Meereen man alive who may or may not have been part of the conspiracy she burned him for.

She did lock up her children and fought the fighting pits. And after she was nearly assassinated for her troubles, she unleashed the Unsullied on Westeros, promising them the spoils of war, even as she knew what Dothraki spoils looked like. She'd clearly "evolved" in how wars and liberations should be fought. Hence why she started using dragons again.

I agree there is a big distance between that and "The Bells," and that season 8 rushed explaining that jump. But this side of her character was always there, and as sloppy as some of Season 8's writing is, it's very believable that when pushed out of her comfort zone--just as the Sons of the Harpy had in the past--that all those times it was "just talk" (except in Astapor and for the elite of Meereen), it became more than.
 
You keep mentioning the books. This thread is for non book readers. Some of us cannot speak to what characters do or how they act in the books. We can only speak to what is put in front of us on the screen. Her turn was horribly done in my opinion. Yes she had shown acts of violence in the past, but in no way did she show the level of brutality towards innocent people as she did in "the bells". And then thirty minutes later she was dead. It was rushed, lazy and sloppy. I have no issue with the mad queen plot line but it needed time to grow. Instead of starting and ending it within 30 minutes of screen time
 
Actually, I don't care for a lot of the violence too. And I hate the gratuitous violence on animals. Did we really need to see a horse's leg get chopped off in season 7? And I really don't care for the rape at all. No need for it. And the actual violence towards the kids as well. In the books, they were just mentioned, and not actually shown. It comes down to the fact that the show runners are some sick individuals.
I'm sorry but this just comes off as a rather silly atittude to have about these sort of things. If that's how you feel in all honesty it makes zero sense to have any interest in Martin's work or any adaptation therof. You say that the violence is more accepted because it's fake and yet are complaining about the fake violence against animals in the story?

Look, we all have our sensitivities and for sure this was a show that by its nature pushed a lot of buttons. It certainly pushed me out of my comfort zone more than a few times over the series' life to the point some things they did had a fair whiff of exploitation. Some things. But the point is this was always a raw look at how fantasy setting based upon the realties of our own history in the real world would be. That was Martin's mission staement from the giddyup.

Your complaints not only come off as silly but the moral judgement of the people making the show as "sick" is honestly obtusely self righteous. It begs why one would have sought out such entertainment in the first place, including apparently, reading the source material, something already rife with violence, torture, murder, incest and rape?

Are you a sicko for having consumed such entertainment out of choice? If the answer is no then maybe extend such consideration to the creators of the content you made a decision to consume.
 
Tell that to the people of Astapor, as much as they deserved it or not, she showed no mercy or quarter.

I have rewatched the early seasons ten times, the later seasons a half dozen each. After "The Bells" I rewatched ALL of Dany's scenes one after another back to back --there are Youtube playlists which compile them so one can do so easily.

An important point that many fail to consider (or one which gets downplayed along with every other red flag event in her history) is that Daenerys was raised by Viserys, not Mother Teresa. There was always a dichotomy to her character: the compassionate champion of the downtrodden with whom she could empathize because she herself was under Viserys' heel for years, and the ruthless, vengeful, angry side derived from her Targaryen heritage, from the other unfortunate effect of abuse from Viserys and totally lacking a nurturing mother and father during her formative youth.

Had she possessed a mature dragon back then, she would have probably burned Qarth.
MMp7xJi.gif

Of course, a mature dragon might have gained her a more hospitable and cooperative reception too! :D

When she chose to crucify the masters indiscriminately, Selmy advised against that and counseled her to "answer injustice with mercy" instead, but the ruthless side of her chose to "answer injustice with (so-called) justice" which in the Targaryen book is the Law of Retaliation (e.g. "an eye for an eye"). After Selmy was (foolishly) slain in battle with the Sons of the Harpy, she retaliated by rashly imprisoning the Mereenese nobles and intimidating them by burning/feeding one of them to her dragons:



She had a fascinated look on her face as she witnessed this execution.

Varys proved these nobles' innocence in the following season when he discovered that the Sons of the Harpy were supported by leaders outside of Mereen --whoops! :eek:

And had Tyrion not been present in Mereen, she would have used her dragons to return Yunkai, Astapor and Volantis "to the dirt" as well.
r1EzFyg.gif


All that was required to unleash this darker side more fully was the right set of conditions --which the writers created, but they clumsily threw them all together in a rushed sequence which made the turn feel sudden and unearned to many viewers.

The solutions:

1. If Dany must intentionally burn all of King's Landing, I would have lengthened the seasons to let her dark descent "breathe" a little and/or (barring that) included additional scenes of morally-questionable judgement and behavior from her gradually and regularly throughout Seasons 7 and 8.

2. Without the above, I would have approached Season 8 differently, killing Rhaegal at King's Landing instead (perhaps from a less prominent, centrally-located scorpion just as the bells started ringing) and used this as the pivotal catalyst for her turn. After that, she would have directed her fiery ire against the Lannister soldiers only and on the Red Keep itself (so as to fulfill the vision of the wrecked hall from the House of the Undying). The civilians that die are collateral damage from the reckless rage of her attacks. Buildings in King's Landing are set alight when she burns the soldiers in the thoroughfares and fire spreads to, and engulfs the rest of the city naturally, worsening dramatically as Aerys' hidden caches of wildfire go off too.

3. No matter what, even without the alternative approaches above, Dany needed to see some of the results of the devastation --the burnt children, feel some remorse and shed some tears as the other, more compassionate side of her nature attempts to resurface, but also some lashing out when her actions are condemned by Tyrion and Jon. I wanted to see her get upset and speak irrationally as she attempts to reconcile and justify this damage to herself and others, which better reflects the turbulent internal conflict of her dichotomous nature and the onset of madness.

Of course, all this would have been way beyond the skills (or interest) of D&D.
 
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Still weird that people would have no problem watching extreme violence with their parents, but draw the line with simulated sex and ****, but ok I guess. Look everyone has their "line", fine i get it. But it's still weird as **** to me, and always has been. Also they could up the Male nudity but I feel we would still be debating the issue.
Reminds me of the debates around MK11 and what Jeremy Jahns said about it. This will always be a point of contention because America still have hang ups over sex and nudity, and probably always will. People are prudes when it comes to sex and nudity and won't admit it lol.
 
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The books arent PG. Every bit of violence in the show is true to the books.

And no the showrunners arent sick individuals for showing the realities of this world. It comes down to the fact that this is a medieval world based heavily on the real medieval era. Sorry to say, but horses routinely got hurt in war. Children had difficult and deadly lives due to violence, starvation, and sickness. Rape and assault against women and even men was common and not seen as some great crime. Hell, rape was an accepted part of warfare and seen as a legitimate spoils of war.

This type of society doesnt operate on your 21st century morality.
Funny you say that.

https://www.avclub.com/the-middle-ages-weren-t-as-sexist-as-game-of-thrones-wo-1834980838

To me it is quite interesting that a lot of the sexism on the show does come from the showrunners, and really goes beyond the violence.
 
I have rewatched the early seasons ten times, the later seasons a half dozen each. After "The Bells" I rewatched ALL of Dany's scenes one after another back to back --there are Youtube playlists which compile them so one can do so easily.

An important point that many fail to consider (or one which gets downplayed along with every other red flag event in her history) is that Daenerys was raised by Viserys, not Mother Teresa. There was always a dichotomy to her character: the compassionate champion of the downtrodden with whom she could empathize because she herself was under Viserys' heel for years, and the ruthless, vengeful, angry side derived from her Targaryen heritage, from the other unfortunate effect of abuse from Viserys and totally lacking a nurturing mother and father during her formative youth.

Had she possessed a mature dragon back then, she would have probably burned Qarth.
MMp7xJi.gif

Of course, a mature dragon might have gained her a more hospitable and cooperative reception too! :D

When she chose to crucify the masters indiscriminately, Selmy advised against that and counseled her to "answer injustice with mercy" instead, but the ruthless side of her chose to "answer injustice with (so-called) justice" which in the Targaryen book is the Law of Retaliation (e.g. "an eye for an eye"). After Selmy was (foolishly) slain in battle with the Sons of the Harpy, she retaliated by rashly imprisoning the Mereenese nobles and intimidating them by burning/feeding one of them to her dragons:



She had a fascinated look on her face as she witnessed this execution.

Varys proved these nobles' innocence in the following season when he discovered that the Sons of the Harpy were supported by leaders outside of Mereen --whoops! :eek:

And had Tyrion not been present in Mereen, she would have used her dragons to return Yunkai, Astapor and Volantis "to the dirt" as well.
r1EzFyg.gif


All that was required to unleash this darker side more fully was the right set of conditions --which the writers created, but they clumsily threw them all together in a rushed sequence which made the turn feel sudden and unearned to many viewers.

The solutions:

1. If Dany must intentionally burn all of King's Landing, I would have lengthened the seasons to let her dark descent "breathe" a little and/or (barring that) included additional scenes of morally-questionable judgement and behavior from her gradually and regularly throughout Seasons 7 and 8.

2. Without the above, I would have approached Season 8 differently, killing Rhaegal at King's Landing instead (perhaps from a less prominent, centrally-located scorpion just as the bells started ringing) and used this as the pivotal catalyst for her turn. After that, she would have directed her fiery ire against the Lannister soldiers only and on the Red Keep itself (so as to fulfill the vision of the wrecked hall from the House of the Undying). The civilians that die are collateral damage from the reckless rage of her attacks. Buildings in King's Landing are set alight when she burns the soldiers in the thoroughfares and fire spreads to, and engulfs the rest of the city naturally, worsening dramatically as Aerys' hidden caches of wildfire go off too.

3. No matter what, even without the alternative approaches above, Dany needed to see some of the results of the devastation --the burnt children, feel some remorse and shed some tears as the other, more compassionate side of her nature attempts to resurface, but also some lashing out when her actions are condemned by Tyrion and Jon. I wanted to see her get upset and speak irrationally as she attempts to reconcile and justify this damage to herself and others, which better reflects the turbulent internal conflict of her dichotomous nature and the onset of madness.

Of course, all this would have been way beyond the skills (or interest) of D&D.

Dany was not raised by Viserys. They lived together, he treated her like trash, but he didn't "raise" her to any real degree.
 
Dany was not raised by Viserys. They lived together, he treated her like trash, but he didn't "raise" her to any real degree.

Okay raising or rearing may imply nurturing which was absent, but my point stands that he was the only familiar person around her consistently while she grew up, she was heavily influenced by him, even programmed with Targaryen attitudes and his obsessive ambition to reclaim the Iron Throne.
 
Okay raising or rearing may imply nurturing which was absent, but my point stands that he was the only familiar person around her consistently while she grew up, she was heavily influenced by him, even programmed with Targaryen attitudes and his obsessive ambition to reclaim the Iron Throne.
The funny thing is, before Drogo, that was never Dany's ambition. But once she got her dragons, she saw herself a bit of the divine, like Viserys did.
 
The funny thing is, before Drogo, that was never Dany's ambition. But once she got her dragons, she saw herself a bit of the divine, like Viserys did.

There wasn't much before Drogo in this series, he got her in the first episode. She beseeched Drogo to win the "Iron Chair" for her and he blew that off until the assassination attempt by the wine merchant:

Season 1 Ep 7:


That ambition was was already in her mind. One of her final lines before she died in front of the Iron Throne:

"When I was a girl, my brother told me it was made with 1000 swords from Aegon's fallen enemies.
What do 1000 swords look like in the mind of a little girl who can't count to 20? I imagined a mountain of swords too high to climb. So many fallen enemies, you could only see the soles of Aegon's feet."
 
I think if the show wanted to use Viserys as a foreshadowing factor for Dany’s fate they went about it the wrong way. In the show there’s really not much there in regards to Viserys being anything more than another Aerys, but in the books that’s not really the case. GRRM makes a point that Viserys wasn’t always like that, and that he was actually a very sweet child who adored his mother and big brother and who mostly did in fact look after Dany during their first few years of life on the run together.

It was the fact that he was constantly running for his life from Robert’s assassins, that he was openly mocked by the Essosi nobles and that he was forced to sell most of his mother’s family heirlooms (including her crown as Queen) to provide for himself and Dany whilst still being little more than a child himself. They also imply that he had a pretty bad case of bipolar disorder, swinging from laughing to crying quite frequently. All of that culminated in him becoming the cruel POS that he eventually was at the end.

That could have been a reasonable road map for Dany; that she didn’t start out as some deranged lunatic, but years of oppressive hardship, grief and some form of inherent mental illness leads her to finally snapping.
 
Honestly, I think the most obvious route they should have taken to get here (And my personal bet is that this is Martin's plan, it just makes sense the way he writes his story) is for Dany to come to believe she is Azor Ahai. They set that up and then dropped it when the endgame for her could so naturally have flown from there, with her Savior Complex kicking into overload. It would have made both the rejection by the people far harsher and her conviction to justify any action she took far clearer.
 
Her first five years seem to have been all right, when they lived with kindly Ser Willem in Braavos until he died. That must have been the period when Dany was crawling into bed with Viserys and listening to his stories. Perhaps the show called back to that when Dany cited Viserys' description of the Iron Throne at a time when she couldn't even count to twenty?
 
While the documentary isn't something you'd need to rush out to see, it had some fun moments. I wish we'd gotten more wrap scenes from actors beyond Emilia Clarke and Kit Harrington, though. The Location Manager swearing up a storm was probably the best part.

Next to Conleth Hill slowly putting his script away when he read Varys' fate.

giphy.gif

I didn't realize that their table readings were like this. For some reason, I thought they acted them out. This has a guy narrating what happens. It's interesting.
 
Honestly, I think the most obvious route they should have taken to get here (And my personal bet is that this is Martin's plan, it just makes sense the way he writes his story) is for Dany to come to believe she is Azor Ahai. They set that up and then dropped it when the endgame for her could so naturally have flown from there, with her Savior Complex kicking into overload. It would have made both the rejection by the people far harsher and her conviction to justify any action she took far clearer.

Yep, they could have gone this route, there's even a little set up for it:

tumblr_pjva24XK901r3i2gwo2_400.gif

"From the fire she was reborn to remake the world.
Her dragons are fire made flesh, a gift from the Lord of Light.
The dragons will purify nonbelievers by the thousands, burning their sins and flesh away."


tumblr_inline_prhv2pEqwk1ufeb46_540.gif
 
I think if the show wanted to use Viserys as a foreshadowing factor for Dany’s fate they went about it the wrong way. In the show there’s really not much there in regards to Viserys being anything more than another Aerys, but in the books that’s not really the case. GRRM makes a point that Viserys wasn’t always like that, and that he was actually a very sweet child who adored his mother and big brother and who mostly did in fact look after Dany during their first few years of life on the run together.

It was the fact that he was constantly running for his life from Robert’s assassins, that he was openly mocked by the Essosi nobles and that he was forced to sell most of his mother’s family heirlooms (including her crown as Queen) to provide for himself and Dany whilst still being little more than a child himself. They also imply that he had a pretty bad case of bipolar disorder, swinging from laughing to crying quite frequently. All of that culminated in him becoming the cruel POS that he eventually was at the end.

That could have been a reasonable road map for Dany; that she didn’t start out as some deranged lunatic, but years of oppressive hardship, grief and some form of inherent mental illness leads her to finally snapping.
I mean Dany grew up thinking she was going to be his wife, and if I remember correctly, completely good with that. I do like the bits we get about them as kids. When they were clearly close. Still Dany at the start of both the book and the show is that young girl who just wants to live in that dream house, away from all his ****.
 
Actually, I don't care for a lot of the violence too. And I hate the gratuitous violence on animals. Did we really need to see a horse's leg get chopped off in season 7? And I really don't care for the rape at all. No need for it. And the actual violence towards the kids as well. In the books, they were just mentioned, and not actually shown. It comes down to the fact that the show runners are some sick individuals.
Just because a show *portrays* misogyny, sexism, homophobia, and racism doesn't mean it *is* misogynistic, sexist, homophobic, and racist. But I know, critical analysis of art can be subjective.
 
They thought they hit that homerun for them to pimp out this documentary a week after that finale I tuned in thinking the Deadwood movie was premiering but it did not so no need to visit anything from this season at all

I'm in the losing position of waiting for GRRM to finish his story
 

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