Kylo is the more interesting character, he is the real 5-star creation of this trilogy, and I really hope that they kill him off, or at least, not for good. It would be a real shame as I feel they still have a lot of story to tell with him.
To be fair though, Rey has a totally different starting point than Luke does as a character. Luke at least grew up with a family and friends. Rey literally had to raise herself under some pretty brutally harsh conditions. So by nature of her backstory, she's already been through a lot.
This happens off-screen though. We do not get to see her experience that as a character and how she reacts and evolves as a character when going through such adversity and hardships. We do not see her display the fortitude that i am sure she did, which is something that can endear her to or at least earn the respect of the audience. I am not saying that she is not loved and respected by the audience already, by the way, but by showing her go through more and coming out the other side stronger, it could have endeared her even more. Even though i love the character, i still feel she did not get anywhere near as much as she should have in TLJ.
This happens off-screen though. We do not get to see her experience that as a character and how she reacts and evolves as a character when going through such adversity and hardships. We do not see her display the fortitude that i am sure she did, which is something that can endear her to or at least earn the respect of the audience. I am not saying that she is not loved and respected by the audience already, by the way, but by showing her go through more and coming out the other side stronger, it could have endeared her even more. Even though i love the character, i still feel she did not get anywhere near as much as she should have in TLJ.
I definitely hear you there, but I think that's part of the trade-off of doing this yin/yang, dual protagonist thing they're doing with Rey and Kylo in this trilogy. They have to share the spotlight a bit, because this is a sort of new dynamic where you have protagonist and antagonist as parallel younger, developing heroes/villains in-progress.
But I think especially due to the nature of the way Rey's past was setup as a mystery, it means that we're going to get to the REAL juicy stuff with her character in the final chapter when we can finally uncover those mysteries once and for all. Which I'm very okay with.
A bit off topic, but I'm SOOOOO excited to hear Reys theme again. I love all the renditions of it, from both TFA and TLJ. Every time I hear these, especially That GIrl With The Staff, it just makes me think of how fast the past few years went by. John Williams, you are a god
To be fair though, Rey has a totally different starting point than Luke does as a character. Luke at least grew up with a family and friends. Rey literally had to raise herself under some pretty brutally harsh conditions. So by nature of her backstory, she's already been through a lot but also very strong and reslient. That introduction to her in TFA spoke volumes.
As far as her great internal dark side struggle though...yes, the films have held out on us for now. But if the leaks are true, I think we'll see there is a pretty good reason for that and she's set up to have a really big, epic arc in this final chapter.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. No one said that she didn't have a different starting point than Luke did. My point (and seemingly what Slade W was agreeing with, unless I'm misinterpreting) was that I don't think she's been sufficiently challenged in her own way and brought to the point she should be at. Her being resilient and different than Luke doesn't mean she can't still face meaningful hardships. Typically in these sorts of trilogies, the second film is the one that puts our hero through a much bigger challenge, and uses stronger opposition to illuminate more about them, testing their convictions. And I don't feel like Rey got that. I feel like her storyline in Last Jedi failed to offer insights into her character, and didn't give her sufficient and logical obstacles and difficulties. So I'm left hoping TROS manages to give her a meaningful emotional storyline this time around.
Sorry, that probably seemed like a non sequitur. Let me clarify. I'm saying that because she had a very different starting point, not only in terms of her starting out as a stronger/tougher character than Luke ever was, but in the fact that her whole past is set up as a mystery, that her trajectory wasn't necessarily always supposed to mirror Luke's from the OT. He can't wait to get off his planet, she keeps wanting to go back to hers. It's a very different archetype. Especially when you factor in that she and Kylo are portrayed as dual light side/dark side developing characters, and the implications that has on the shape of the story as a whole. And I'm betting that once we get the full picture of what she will have to go through in TROS, her overall arc in the 3 films is going to be a lot clearer.
While I don't think TLJ quite put her through the ringer in the way we might've expected, it did dig into some important things. I think it firmly established her flaws and weak points that she will have to overcome in the final chapter.
She ultimately refused the call to action in TFA and was choosing to go home. The only reason her adventure continued was because Kylo captured her...then when she's put in a survival situation, she discovered she's strong in the Force. In TLJ, we see the effect that has on her. She's confused by it, she feels alone, she needs guidance. She ends up looking for it in the wrong places. I think the thing with Rey, is she is still struggling to even view herself as the hero of her own story. Whether she is clinging to the idea of who her family might be and using that as an excuse to avoid the call to action. Or the idea that Luke is the hero the galaxy needs, and she just needs to bring him back. Or when that fails, that Kylo just needs to be turned, and THEN the Resistance has a chance. Rey is struggling to figure out where she fits into all of this, and every step of the way she's leaning on the past, in one way or another.
And personally, I think while we're left hanging in terms of her emotional arc in TLJ, I still think she's set up perfectly for an amazing arc in TROS
when who she REALLY is reframes her entire journey
and we can really dig into the juicy dark side stuff.
First of all, I love BR 2049 and no arguments here about it being a fantastic example of a legacy sequel. That said, it's totally apples and oranges to Star Wars. You're not dealing with iconic heroes, you're not continuing this massive cyclical mythology. There's nothing that leads me to believe Denis might not have taken a similar approach and portrayed the OT characters in some challenging ways. Especially given how dark and 'adult' his material tends to be.
I didn't mean to put words in your mouth about the EU thing, that's fine if you didn't like it and just wanted something different than what we got. But one thing to consider. When you start flinging around phrases like "Jake Skywalker", "Mary Rey", etc. you instantly blend in with the herd of bashers out there, with the "edgy" slurs they constantly use when bashing/sh**posting about the ST. And many of those people love the EU and are bitter about it being turned into Legends. So whenever I hear someone start to use those terms, it disengages me from the discussion and I end up responding more to the "idea" of a basher vs. whoever the person I'm actually talking to may be.
I've never had a problem with someone being critical of the ST, but I think a lot of people do themselves a disservice by trying to sound like some of the most toxic of fans.
I have no problems with challenging portrayals, I just have problems with bad ones. I don't think it's challenging to revert Han so he can have go through the same arc again, that's rather letting the viewers ride the bike with training wheels. I'm not against Luke having been broken, but having him be broken because he is written directly contrary to his character in a very minor version of the exact same challenge that he went through with his father is downright pathetic to me. People have come up with many different ways in putting Luke in the situation we find him in TLJ that are far more faithful and respectful to the OT.
I think we also disagree on what "toxic fans" mean. To me that's the fans that go out and abuse the people making the movies and making people feel bad. I'm not even bashing any people (which would probably be irrelevant since I doubt any of them reads this thread) but just the movie, and if you make public works you will have to accept that people will voice their opinions about it. If you don't like those words that's up to you, but I think they nicely point to problems in a short and concise way. Mark Hamill himself coined the first because it's not Luke Skywalker, or what a Jedi is, so I guess he's a toxic person as well then.
Sorry, that probably seemed like a non sequitur. Let me clarify. I'm saying that because she had a very different starting point, not only in terms of her starting out as a stronger/tougher character than Luke ever was, but in the fact that her whole past is set up as a mystery, that her trajectory wasn't necessarily always supposed to mirror Luke's from the OT. He can't wait to get off his planet, she keeps wanting to go back to hers. It's a very different archetype. Especially when you factor in that she and Kylo are portrayed as dual light side/dark side developing characters, and the implications that has on the shape of the story as a whole. And I'm betting that once we get the full picture of what she will have to go through in TROS, her overall arc in the 3 films is going to be a lot clearer.
While I don't think TLJ quite put her through the ringer in the way we might've expected, it did dig into some important things. I think it firmly established her flaws and weak points that she will have to overcome in the final chapter.
She ultimately refused the call to action in TFA and was choosing to go home. The only reason her adventure continued was because Kylo captured her...then when she's put in a survival situation, she discovered she's strong in the Force. In TLJ, we see the effect that has on her. She's confused by it, she feels alone, she needs guidance. She ends up looking for it in the wrong places. I think the thing with Rey, is she is still struggling to even view herself as the hero of her own story. Whether she is clinging to the idea of who her family might be and using that as an excuse to avoid the call to action. Or the idea that Luke is the hero the galaxy needs, and she just needs to bring him back. Or when that fails, that Kylo just needs to be turned, and THEN the Resistance has a chance. Rey is struggling to figure out where she fits into all of this, and every step of the way she's leaning on the past, in one way or another.
And personally, I think while we're left hanging in terms of her emotional arc in TLJ, I still think she's set up perfectly for an amazing arc in TROS
when who she REALLY is reframes her entire journey
and we can really dig into the juicy dark side stuff.
I completely disagree on what you say about Last Jedi here, and I still don't feel like this is a matter of mirroring Luke so much as not giving her much of her own, but I get how you're trying to connect this now.
I'll give you the Jake Skywalker one, since that one is Hamill's fault...but you can't tell me that saying "Ruin Johnson" is just a quick and concise way to make any sort of intellectual argument. It's just spiteful and nasty for the sake of it, and that sh**posting tone characterizes much of the discourse from that side of the fence. So those are just among all the certain buzzwords that just make it it all seem like one big, angry, single-minded mob.
The fans who actually attack the people making the films are obviously toxic, and in some cases like with Kelly Marie Tran, those are actual alt-right trolls, who go in a whole separate category of disgusting behavior.
But I still think subreddits like R/saltierthancrait are toxic too in their own way. It's this scorched-earth approach to not liking something that just takes it all way too far. They can't fathom that anyone could actually be genuinely enjoying aspects of these films that they hate. If you like the films, you're either a mindless idiot or a Disney shill. That's toxic.
I'll give you the Jake Skywalker one, since that one is Hamill's fault...but you can't tell me that saying "Ruin Johnson" is just a quick and concise way to make any sort of intellectual argument. It's just spiteful and nasty for the sake of it, and that sh**posting tone characterizes much of the discourse from that side of the fence. So those are just among all the certain buzzwords that just make it it all seem like one big, angry, single-minded mob.
The fans who actually attack the people making the films are obviously toxic, and in some cases like with Kelly Marie Tran, those are actual alt-right trolls, who go in a whole separate category of disgusting behavior.
But I still think subreddits like R/saltierthancrait are toxic too in their own way. It's this scorched-earth approach to not liking something that just takes it all way too far. They can't fathom that anyone could actually be genuinely enjoying aspects of these films that they hate. If you like the films, you're either a mindless idiot or a Disney shill. That's toxic.
"Ruin Johnson" doesn't add much no, but as said I haven't said anything about any person. When I talk about toxicity and attacking other people I do include attacking people that have different opinions as well. Criticizing characters is completely fair game to me though so I can't put what I said in the same category.
I think Rian Johnson made a really bad movie with TLJ, and not just with the handling of the old characters, but I don't judge him as a director solely by that. I still think Looper was pretty good and I'm interested in Knives Out.
Fair enough. The name-calling thing is just a pet peeve of mine, including the whole Mary Sue thing. It just feels like a cheap dig, and I think it gets really old.
But I appreciate that you at least draw a line somewhere.
I like TLJ quite a bit, but the one choice Johnson made that I consider a mistake is separating Finn and Poe. He considered them too similar to pair up, which in turn led to some of the most patchy and questionable sub-plots. I think you could have made those scenes work. The pair worked great together in TFA. Poe is a dynamic character who really suffered from being essentially benched.
The Gillen run. It does a great job with its supporting cast and helps believably bridge the gap between Vader as the Emperor's lap dog to "Hey, son, let's ditch this guy and take over."
Sorry, that probably seemed like a non sequitur. Let me clarify. I'm saying that because she had a very different starting point, not only in terms of her starting out as a stronger/tougher character than Luke ever was, but in the fact that her whole past is set up as a mystery, that her trajectory wasn't necessarily always supposed to mirror Luke's from the OT. He can't wait to get off his planet, she keeps wanting to go back to hers. It's a very different archetype. Especially when you factor in that she and Kylo are portrayed as dual light side/dark side developing characters, and the implications that has on the shape of the story as a whole. And I'm betting that once we get the full picture of what she will have to go through in TROS, her overall arc in the 3 films is going to be a lot clearer.
While I don't think TLJ quite put her through the ringer in the way we might've expected, it did dig into some important things. I think it firmly established her flaws and weak points that she will have to overcome in the final chapter.
She ultimately refused the call to action in TFA and was choosing to go home. The only reason her adventure continued was because Kylo captured her...then when she's put in a survival situation, she discovered she's strong in the Force. In TLJ, we see the effect that has on her. She's confused by it, she feels alone, she needs guidance. She ends up looking for it in the wrong places. I think the thing with Rey, is she is still struggling to even view herself as the hero of her own story. Whether she is clinging to the idea of who her family might be and using that as an excuse to avoid the call to action. Or the idea that Luke is the hero the galaxy needs, and she just needs to bring him back. Or when that fails, that Kylo just needs to be turned, and THEN the Resistance has a chance. Rey is struggling to figure out where she fits into all of this, and every step of the way she's leaning on the past, in one way or another.
And personally, I think while we're left hanging in terms of her emotional arc in TLJ, I still think she's set up perfectly for an amazing arc in TROS
when who she REALLY is reframes her entire journey
and we can really dig into the juicy dark side stuff.
The Last Jedi does not build on the characters from TFA. It throws them out, with the exception of Kylo, to start with characters that approximate those characters, but basically allow Rian to start over. The only characters not really effected by this are Kylo, Maz and Leia. And that is because Rian seems to relate to the creepy young white dude, Maz has one scene and Leia is basically unconscious for the vast majority. The reason this seems to be is that Rian didn't have much interest in telling the story of anyone but Kylo. Why Poe and Finn have poorly written subplots, with generic characterizations used to tell generic subplots that simply take up run time. Oh and in Finn's case, takes him out of the Rey sweepstakes for hunky Kylo.
One of the reasons IX reads the way it does is because it is basically being forced to act as the second and third act of Rey's story. A story that was all but stalled in TLJ. It isn't that Rey can't be afraid of her power. Confused. But we only get that in general strokes, as so much of the movie is chopped up and has one major idea in mind. Kylo. I mean the dude cut out arguably the most important Rey and Luke scene. The scene that added something to both characters and actually gave Rey a reason to talk to Kylo and go down into the cave.
One of the most interesting aspects of IX is it is starting to feel a lot like Revenge of the Sith. Not in that they will tell the same story or be of similar quality. But that it is now being put in the position to tell a lot of the story that the previous movie neglected.
Rey's "journey" in TLJ or lack there of is emphasized in that she plays the Han/Chewie/Lando/Leia role in the finale. She is removed from the actual climax of the film. Now this didn't have to be all bad of course. It could work if Rian actually wrote a story where her and Luke have a connection. The issue is... he didn't. Rey barely reacts to his death and not in an overtly emotional way. Because she does not really hold any emotions for Luke Skywalker which means our main hero has no relevant tie to the big emotional moment of the film. It's like if when Vader goes to Luke to tell him who his father is, he actually says, "No, I am Ezra Bridger's father". How does that effect Luke? It doesn't. Just like how what happens with Kylo and Luke has nothing to do with Rey.
IX's leaks, if true tell a story that happens after JJ rewrites VIII and fixes a lot of the general issues. Rey's story emphasizes this a lot. But I do like that you keep on wanting to give Rian some sort of credit for what JJ may or may not be doing with IX. It's... fun.
The Last Jedi does not build on the characters from TFA. It throws them out, with the exception of Kylo, to start with characters that approximate those characters, but basically allow Rian to start over. The only characters not really effected by this are Kylo, Maz and Leia. And that is because Rian seems to relate to the creepy young white dude, Maz has one scene and Leia is basically unconscious for the vast majority. The reason this seems to be is that Rian didn't have much interest in telling the story of anyone but Kylo. Why Poe and Finn have poorly written subplots, with generic characterizations used to tell generic subplots that simply take up run time. Oh and in Finn's case, takes him out of the Rey sweepstakes for hunky Kylo.
I want to jump on the Poe and Finn thing for a moment. I feel like I've said quite a bit in the past on here regarding Rey, the shortcomings of her storyline and the way I feel it's honestly kinda sexist, but I don't want to let those two slide away. Especially Poe, because I hate what they do with Poe in Last Jedi. Poe is a super thin character in Force Awakens, no argument there. But the most refreshing thing about him is what a genuinely good guy he is. He's like if the classic hotshot pilot archetype didn't have all the toxic masculinity attached. But Rian wanted to make a point about toxic masculinity, so it's grafted back onto him, and he has issues with Holdo because he's sexist. It doesn't even make much sense with his backstory. The guy who became a pilot because his hero is his mother and who followed Leia for years suddenly is a sexist who can't handle women in authority well? Way to regress the character. You know what was genuinely progressive and subversive? Just ditching the toxicity attached to the archetype.
This is the Poe Dameron I cared about. Someone who gave a damn about those around him.
And then there's Finn. I feel like Finn's the plotline that's the sloppiest. While the others I feel like at least try to integrate their ideas into something cohesive as an arc, Finn feels like he's just there so Rose can say some themes he didn't know how else to fit into the movie. Slavery bad. Animal abuse bad. Self-sacrifice that blatantly won't work anyway and he should know better because he was the one who knew what the tech was bad. Save what you love, don't fight what you hate, even those those concepts aren't mutually exclusive.
I want to jump on the Poe and Finn thing for a moment. I feel like I've said quite a bit in the past on here regarding Rey, the shortcomings of her storyline and the way I feel it's honestly kinda sexist, but I don't want to let those two slide away. Especially Poe, because I hate what they do with Poe in Last Jedi. Poe is a super thin character in Force Awakens, no argument there. But the most refreshing thing about him is what a genuinely good guy he is. He's like if the classic hotshot pilot archetype didn't have all the toxic masculinity attached. But Rian wanted to make a point about toxic masculinity, so it's grafted back onto him, and he has issues with Holdo because he's sexist. It doesn't even make much sense with his backstory. The guy who became a pilot because his hero is his mother and who followed Leia for years suddenly is a sexist who can't handle women in authority well? Way to regress the character. You know what was genuinely progressive and subversive? Just ditching the toxicity attached to the archetype.
This is the Poe Dameron I cared about. Someone who gave a damn about those around him.
And then there's Finn. I feel like Finn's the plotline that's the sloppiest. While the others I feel like at least try to integrate their ideas into something cohesive as an arc, Finn feels like he's just there so Rose can say some themes he didn't know how else to fit into the movie. Slavery bad. Animal abuse bad. Self-sacrifice that blatantly won't work anyway and he should know better because he was the one who knew what the tech was bad. Save what you love, don't fight what you hate, even those those concepts aren't mutually exclusive.
Poe doesn't have a grand arc in TFA. But everything he does serves his character and plot very well. Poe was the star quarterback you expect to be a real jerk, but is instead is a real leader. One who understands that listening to others and building them up, is far more effective then yelling and tearing them down. His interactions with Finn are perfect imo. He doesn't attack Finn. He treats him as a equal right away and never looks down on him. He even givens him his Letterman jacket. I was always impressed by how much Oscar and JJ were able to get out of a character with so little screen time.
And then Rian happened... and Poe is a complete ******* who gets his squad basically wiped out. Think about how many pilots there are in the opening scene and how many there are by the time Kylo attacks. And why does he do this? Some weird form of masculine arrogance. The idea that Poe wouldn't listen to Leia is bad. That he won't listen to Leia and Holdo because they don't have penis is way worse. And to top it all off, the dumbest bit is when those two grown ass women, who have been through countless battles and war just smile about it later. Like yeah, but he means well. I am sure Rian isn't a misogynist. But TLJ didn't help me think that.
Poe doesn't have a grand arc in TFA. But everything he does serves his character and plot very well. Poe was the star quarterback you expect to be a real jerk, but is instead is a real leader. One who understands that listening to others and building them up, is far more effective then yelling and tearing them down. His interactions with Finn are perfect imo. He doesn't attack Finn. He treats him as a equal right away and never looks down on him. He even givens him his Letterman jacket. I was always impressed by how much Oscar and JJ were able to get out of a character with so little screen time.
I've always loved Poe and theres something very calming about the character. I really admire how JJ managed to create such compelling characters that you get attached to in one film. By the end of TFA, I loved everybody including Poe, with him and Finn becoming an awesome duo. I can't wait to see more of that in TROS.
I'm won't go down the TLJ rabbit hole with you as I don't want to hijack this thread with rehashed points. I already did my mega-post where I tried my best to explain where I disagreed with you on what the film was saying, but I accept that you and I, just like many, many other SW fans simply get different things out of certain SW films. In other news, water = wet. But hey, that's the beauty of art sometimes.
IX's leaks, if true tell a story that happens after JJ rewrites VIII and fixes a lot of the general issues. Rey's story emphasizes this a lot. But I do like that you keep on wanting to give Rian some sort of credit for what JJ may or may not be doing with IX. It's... fun.
I have repeatedly praised JJ (and Chris Terrio) for taking this thing in a direction that really excites me. The minute I heard Sheev's laugh in that teaser, I was sold on this thing being right up my alley. SOLD. Hook, line and sinker. If this movie pulls everything off, it will easily be my favorite film of the ST and I'll be heaping all the praise in the world onto JJ. The fact that TLJ was a bit more narrow in focus and leaves a lot for the last film to wrap up isn't a problem at all for me. I LOVE the idea of a meaty, pushing-3 hour epic for the final film in the saga. That sounds heavenly, are you kidding me? That's not giving Rian credit for whatever IX is, it's just taking note of the tremendous opportunity that's there. And it's also to refute all the people saying "tEh sToRy iZ dEaD, sTar WaRz Iz rUiNeD!" In fact I'll go a step further and say I'm glad JJ is doing the final film and not Rian. After introducing these characters, he absolutely deserves to have the final say on where they end up. And he brings that sense of wonder and adventure that's perfect for SW. But I think both directors were "well cast" for their respective spots in the trilogy.
The only difference between me and you (and fans who agree with you), is I do believe that TLJ will benefit from more context. While you seem to think it's just going to be some oopsie, and JJ is going to be the guy who rebooted and saved Star Wars twice. Which, okay. That's fine. I see plenty of things in the leaks that feel like totally natural expansions of the threads and ideas from both TFA and TLJ. It's exactly the type of stuff I was hoping to see. Ultimately it doesn't matter who wrote and directed what. In the future, nobody's gonna care. It's just gonna be the Star Wars saga. A big ol' space opera that's greater than the sum of its parts.
Answer me this though. Why was Rey's identity mystery boxed? If we were just going to be getting a story about Vader's grandkids, we could've easily established that in TFA. Why leave that as a loose thread in the first place?
But truly, the thought of
Rey Palpatine
instantly makes this whole story click into place for me in a way that I find incredibly rich and satisfying. And I'm finding it increasingly hard to believe that this wasn't something that was being considered from the very beginning. It just makes too much sense in so many ways. Heck, just the mere fact that
they introduced Sheev as his first name in canon, clarifying for the first time that Palpatine was a family name.
All the canon stuff about his contingency plans, the resurrection ceremony for him. I mean it seems blindingly obvious now that they were quietly laying track for this. I really do believe Kathy when she says this was always in the cards for Episode IX.
So, yeah. One day maybe we'll have a clearer picture of the development of this trilogy. If there was an epic disagreement between JJ and Rian, I'd be fascinated to learn more about it, and where Kathy fit into all that. But I tend to doubt that's the case. I think it was obviously developed in a way where they could be fluid and were encouraged to follow their creative instincts, but that there were also some broad strokes that everyone was "read in" on that they've had to stay silent on- for obvious reasons.
I'm won't go down the TLJ rabbit hole with you as I don't want to hijack this thread with rehashed points. I already did my mega-post where I tried my best to explain where I disagreed with you on what the film was saying, but I accept that you and I, just like many, many other SW fans simply get different things out of certain SW films. In other news, water = wet. But hey, that's the beauty of art sometimes.
That said, there's one thing I'd like to address.
I have repeatedly praised JJ (and Chris Terrio) for taking this thing in a direction that really excites me. The minute I heard Sheev's laugh in that teaser, I was sold on this thing being right up my alley. SOLD. Hook, line and sinker. If this movie pulls everything off, it will easily be my favorite film of the ST and I'll be heaping all the praise in the world onto JJ. The fact that TLJ was a bit more narrow in focus and leaves a lot for the last film to wrap up isn't a problem at all for me. I LOVE the idea of a meaty, pushing-3 hour epic for the final film in the saga. That sounds heavenly, are you kidding me? That's not giving Rian credit for whatever IX is, it's just taking note of the tremendous opportunity that's there. And it's also to refute all the people saying "tEh sToRy iZ dEaD, sTar WaRz Iz rUiNeD!" In fact I'll go a step further and say I'm glad JJ is doing the final film and not Rian. After introducing these characters, he absolutely deserves to have the final say on where they end up. And he brings that sense of wonder and adventure that's perfect for SW. But I think both directors were "well cast" for their respective spots in the trilogy.
The only difference between me and you (and fans who agree with you), is I do believe that TLJ will benefit from more context. While you seem to think it's just going to be some oopsie, and JJ is going to be the guy who rebooted and saved Star Wars twice. Which, okay. That's fine. I see plenty of things in the leaks that feel like totally natural expansions of the threads and ideas from both TFA and TLJ. It's exactly the type of stuff I was hoping to see. Ultimately it doesn't matter who wrote and directed what. In the future, nobody's gonna care. It's just gonna be the Star Wars saga. A big ol' space opera that's greater than the sum of its parts.
Answer me this though. Why was Rey's identity mystery boxed? If we were just going to be getting a story about Vader's grandkids, we could've easily established that in TFA. Why leave that as a loose thread in the first place?
But truly, the thought of
Rey Palpatine
instantly makes this whole story click into place for me in a way that I find incredibly rich and satisfying. And I'm finding it increasingly hard to believe that this wasn't something that was being considered from the very beginning. It just makes too much sense in so many ways. Heck, just the mere fact that
they introduced Sheev as his first name in canon, clarifying for the first time that Palpatine was a family name.
All the canon stuff about his contingency plans, the resurrection ceremony for him. I mean it seems blindingly obvious now that they were quietly laying track for this. I really do believe Kathy when she says this was always in the cards for Episode IX.
So, yeah. One day maybe we'll have a clearer picture of the development of this trilogy. If there was an epic disagreement between JJ and Rian, I'd be fascinated to learn more about it, and where Kathy fit into all that. But I tend to doubt that's the case. I think it was obviously developed in a way where they could be fluid and were encouraged to follow their creative instincts, but that there were also some broad strokes that everyone was "read in" on that they've had to stay silent on- for obvious reasons.
I hope you realize that your wrote a lot of words to point out that the thing you are so excited about, goes directly against Rian's intentions and the vast majority of defenses of what he did with TLJ. Again, this may have been JJ's plan from the start. Considering what the likes of JJ and Pegg have said on the subject, it is very possible. But it most certainly wasn't Rian's plan. And you don't have to guess. He said it himself...
“I went through all the possibilities of who her parents could be,” Johnson said. “I made a list, with the upsides and downsides” (a list that was probably promptly destroyed by a harried Lucasfilm intern). He landed where he did because he was fond of “breaking out from the notion that the Force is this genetic thing that you have to be tied to somebody to have. It’s the ‘anybody can be president’ idea, which I liked introducing. The foremost thing, though, was just dramatically, storytelling-wise.”
This particular detail brings an egalitarian touch to a series often concerned with grand destinies, a point emphasized at the end of the film when viewers got a glimpse of a Force-sensitive stable boy on Canto Bight. (He has a name now, by the way: Temiri Blagg.) Johnson compared his decision to the Darth Vader revelation in The Empire Strikes Back. The reason the “I am your father” line resonates so strongly, he explained, is not just because it’s a surprise—but because it’s the “hardest possible thing that Luke, and hence the audience, could hear at that moment.”
“You’ve had a bad guy that you can hate, that you can project your shadow on to just cleanly—and he’s evil . . . With that one line, ‘I am your father,’ suddenly that easy answer gets taken away from you, and he’s something that our protagonist has a relationship to,” Johnson said.
By comparison, Rey learning that she was related to someone like Luke Skywalker would have been “the easiest thing she could possibly hear.”
“The hardest thing to hear is, ‘Nope, this is not gonna define you,’” Johnson added. “And, in fact, Kylo is gonna use this to try and undercut your confidence so you’ll feel you have to lean on him for your identity . . . you’re gonna have to make the choice to find your own identity in this story.”
Johnson has also made it very clear he has nothing to do with IX and has no idea what is going to happen with Rey. He has had no input and will find out along with everyone else.
But...my whole point there is that if Rian was told by JJ/Kathy/Story Group
"So we may be building towards a reveal that Rey is connected to the Emperor, but we wouldn't want to reveal that until Episode IX, when he will actually come back in some capacity."
There is just NO way Rian would come out and say "Yeah, so I thought this non-reveal was great from a thematic and dramatic perspective for this middle chapter, but don't you worry guys- JJ told me who she's supposed to be, and OMG WAIT TILL YOU FIND OUT!"
Same deal for Snoke. "I know people are upset about me killing the big baddie...but wait till you learn who the REAL mastermind is gonna be!"
Not gonna happen. Certainly not when the job is to be promoting his film.
I mean, if we want to do quotes, there's this one from JJ:
Rian has asked for a couple of things here and there that he needs for his story. He is an incredibly accomplished filmmaker and an incredibly strong writer. So the story he told took what we were doing and went in the direction that he felt was best but that is very much in line with what we were thinking as well. But you’re right—that will be his movie; he’s going to do it in the way he sees fit. He’s neither asking for nor does he need me to oversee the process.
Now, you could just discount this as PR-speak and JJ playing the game. Ok. But I'll do the same for what Rian said, taking into account that he was never going to reveal top-level information he might've been privy to. I'm not even sure that is something JJ would've been fully transparent with Daisy Ridley about, even taking into account that he supposedly told her the answer. After all, Mark Hamill didn't find out he was going to be Vader's son until moments before he shot the moment. And that was 30 years before the age of Twitter.
But...my whole point there is that if Rian was told by JJ/Kathy/Story Group
"So we may be building towards a reveal that Rey is connected to the Emperor, but we wouldn't want to reveal that until Episode IX, when he will actually come back in some capacity."
There is just NO way Rian would come out and say "Yeah, so I thought this non-reveal was great from a thematic and dramatic perspective for this middle chapter, but don't you worry guys- JJ told me who she's supposed to be, and OMG WAIT TILL YOU FIND OUT!"
Same deal for Snoke. "I know people are upset about me killing the big baddie...but wait till you learn who the REAL mastermind is gonna be!"
Not gonna happen. Certainly not when the job is to be promoting his film.
I mean, if we want to do quotes, there's this one from JJ:
Now, you could just discount this as PR-speak and JJ playing the game. Ok. But I'll do the same for what Rian said, taking into account that he was never going to reveal top-level information he might've been privy to. I'm not even sure that is something JJ would've been fully transparent with Daisy Ridley about, even taking into account that he supposedly told her the answer. After all, Mark Hamill didn't find out he was going to be Vader's son until moments before he shot the moment. And that was 30 years before the age of Twitter.
That isn't what he said. He specifically said what Rey's origin is to him, and compares it to the truth told by Vader. It's "right" because it is the worst thing that could happen to her. She's a nobody. Rian changed it, we know Rian changed it, we know what Rian's answer was, and Rian has no idea what they will do with IX. Rian has said that himself. I want you to tell me how you read that Variety quote as anything other then him telling the truth. Because beyond there being no hint of what you speak in TLJ itself, Rian has made it abundantly clear what his idea was and why he did it.
You are literally making up a scenario you have no idea to be true and flies in the face of everything said so far. You are basically calling everyone, including Rian liars, and in a very odd manner. Because one of the big issues with this trilogy is people saying they continue to make it up as they go along. And Kennedy's only attempt to push back against that, is with JJ coming back in.
Remember three things before reading this. Rian was signed on to direct VIII and write both VIII and IX. Second, he was the first person Kennedy went to direct IX. He decided against it. JJ then came in, and had to come up with a plan to not only finish the trilogy, but the entire saga. His co-writer isn't Rian, its Terrio.
Finally let's not forget how defensive Rian was to criticism over his decisions with VIII. Because the idea that he was "lying" while getting so upset about the reaction just doesn't make sense. Especially when it comes to Rey.
While speaking to Johnson at CinemaCon 2019, MTV asked the writer and director of The Last Jedi if he’d be bothered if Star Wars: Episode IX co-writer and director J.J. Abrams retconned the revelation that Rey’s parents were no one. Johnson immediately shook his head and replied, “Like I said, man, I want to let go of all my expectations. I want to sit back. I want to be entertained. I want to be surprised. I want to be thrilled. I want him to do stuff I wasn’t expecting him to do and just go along for the ride.”
"Rian Johnson and J. J. Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didn’t keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII.”
I know what J.J. kind of intended or at least was being chucked around. I think that’s kind of been undone slightly by the last one. There was some talk of a relevant lineage for her.
But without getting in the weeds on episode eight, that was a story that Rian wrote and was telling based on seven before we met. So he was taking the thing in another direction. So we also had to respond to Episode VIII. So our movie was not just following what we had started, it was following what we had started and then had been advanced by someone else. So there was that, and, finally, it was resolving nine movies. While there are some threads of larger ideas and some big picture things that had been conceived decades ago and a lot of ideas that Lawrence Kasdan and I had when we were doing Episode VII, the lack of absolute inevitability, the lack of a complete structure for this thing, given the way it was being run was an enormous challenge.
However, to answer your question—truly, finally—now that I’m back, the difference is I feel like we might’ve done it. Like, I actually feel like this crazy challenge that could have been a wildly uncomfortable contortion of ideas, and a kind of shoving-in of answers and Band-Aids and bridges and things that would have felt messy. Strangely, we were sort of relentless and almost unbearably disciplined about the story and forcing ourselves to question and answer some fundamental things that at the beginning, I absolutely had no clue how we would begin to address. I feel like we’ve gotten to a place—without jinxing anything or sounding more confident than I deserve to be—I feel like we’re in a place where we might have something incredibly special. So I feel relief being home, and I feel gratitude that I got to do it. And more than anything, I’m excited about what I think we might have.
“The story that we’re telling, the story that we started to conceive when we did ‘The Force Awakens’ was allowed to continue,” Abrams said. “Episode VIII didn’t really derail anything that we were thinking about.”
Everyone is telling you Rian isn't in on this, including Rian. And you still act like Rian is in on it. Why? Do you think it will help the fandom like TLJ? Because it won't. So much of the issues people have with VIII are execution on Rian's part. It is very early drafty, has poor characterization and forgot who the main character was. JJ can't fix that with an awesome IX that fulfills the promise of TFA. If IX is awesome, all it will do is have everyone who doesn't like TLJ wish JJ had just done it all, like he should have.
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