The Rise of Skywalker General Star Wars Episode IX News/Speculation Thread - Part 1

[Donner]

You must be kidding. Smoke merely pulled her closer to him. Which is nothing compared to Kylo Ren poking around her brain with force powers.

If you understand Smoke’s action as torturing her, then you must concede the same of Kylo Ren’s more brutal methods.

not to mention the movie makes it extra obvious that it’s violent torture when he does the same thing to Poe earlier.

...

You watched that scene with Snoke right? He had her in the air and she was screaming.



3:53

Kylo tortured Poe. That looked a hell of a lot different than Rey. It looked like a battle of wills with Rey, not torture or abuse.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

Yes that was torture. He used his force powers to violently lift her and pull her closer to him. Just as Kylo used the force to violate her mind. If the first qualifies so does the latter.

Kylo had her bound from toe to neck. Not abuse? Are you kidding us? Is this an elaborate joke?

battle of wills? She was restrained!

 

[Donner]

Yes that was torture. He used his force powers to violently life her and pull her closer to her. Just as Kylo used the force to violate her mind. If the first qualifies so does the latter.

Poe had her bound from toe to neck. Not abuse? Are you kidding us? Is this an elaborate joke?

battle of wills? She was restrained!

It's not an elaborate joke. You don't even remember the throne scene properly.

People interpret the interrogation scene differently. Just let it go.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

You still didn’t explain how the torture scene wasn’t torture.

 

[Donner]

You still didn’t explain how the torture scene wasn’t torture.

I did. I didn't see her in pain. She wasn't crying out like Poe did or like she did with Snoke. She was scared and resisting, but not in pain (at least to me). That's not torture to me.

It was clear to me Kylo was being more gentle with her than Poe.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

Just because he was more “gentle” than with Poe doesn’t mean it’s not torture. He was seriously poking around her mind. She looked very, very uncomfortable. The series has already established the force as being very powerful.

Forcing people to follow their command is already a total violation of the mind. Poking through their thoughts and memories must be agony. Not to mention she was physically restrained.

 

[Donner]

Just because he was more “gentle” than with Poe doesn’t mean it’s not torture. He was seriously poking around her mind. She looked very, very uncomfortable. The series has already established the force as being very powerful.

Forcing people to follow their command is already a total violation of the mind. Poking through their thoughts and memories must be agony. Not to mention she was physically restrained.

The Jedi poke around all the time. I think it can be done in a gentle way.

She was uncomfortable and scared. But again, I didn't see torture or abuse.

 

[Sian]

You must be kidding. Smoke merely pulled her closer to him. Which is nothing compared to Kylo Ren poking around her brain with force powers.

If you understand Smoke’s action as torturing her, then you must concede the same of Kylo Ren’s more brutal methods.

not to mention the movie makes it extra obvious that it’s violent torture when he does the same thing to Poe earlier.

Wow. Now who's kidding?
What about how he literally ripped Luke's location out of her mind, causing her to scream in agony?
I know you don't like Kylo, but I'm genuinely stunned that you think he's worse than Snoke. Andy Serkis himself described him as a 'predator.' He was the closest thing family friendly Disney had to a child molester.

 

[Donner]

The Rise of Kylo Ren comic really threw Snoke's predatory behaviour in the limelight. There was even a panel where he was playing with Ben's hair.

Creeeepy.

 

[henzINNIT]

Next issue Snoke is going to strap Ben to a torture chair and rummage through his mind, while telling the young lad that he could do anything he wants with him. Ben will make some noises and look incredibly pained and stressed, but don't worry, he for sure won't have been the victim of anything abusive.

By extension, playing with Ben's hair is certainly not an issue. It's a sign of affection. You're being too hard on Snoke. I bet he had a rough childhood. No childhood really. Born fully grown and deformed, and a puppet for the most evil man in the galaxy. Snoke is the real victim here. Can't believe Kylo savagely cut him in half.

 

[Donner]

Next issue Snoke is going to strap Ben to a torture chair and rummage through his mind, while telling the young lad that he could do anything he wants with him. Ben will make some noises and look incredibly pained and stressed, but don't worry, he for sure won't have been the victim of anything abusive.

By extension, playing with Ben's hair is certainly not an issue. It's a sign of affection. You're being too hard on Snoke. I bet he had a rough childhood. No childhood really. Born fully grown and deformed, and a puppet for the most evil man in the galaxy. Snoke is the real victim here. Can't believe Kylo savagely cut him in half.

You're so clever.

The argument was that people interpret that scene differently. You have no authority to say anyone is wrong. I reiterate, get over it. Jesus.

 

[henzINNIT]

It was low hanging fruit but I took it. You're downplaying the anguish of force-enhanced interrogation in one breath and shuddering at sinister hair brushing in another. Seems like a massive double-standard.

 

[Donner]

It was low hanging fruit but I took it. You're downplaying the anguish of force-enhanced interrogation in one breath and shuddering at sinister hair brushing in another. Seems like a massive double-standard.

It's really not. One was an older man grooming a young boy (for years) and the other is an interrogation in a war. Completely different situations.

Also, I don't know how many times I have to say it, I didn't see Rey in pain. Scared and uncomfortable, but not in pain. Much like any interrogation would be.

 

[Sian]

The Rise of Kylo Ren comic really threw Snoke's predatory behaviour in the limelight. There was even a panel where he was playing with Ben's hair.

Creeeepy.

Yes, that bit made my flesh creep. Ugh!

 

[Sian]

Next issue Snoke is going to strap Ben to a torture chair and rummage through his mind, while telling the young lad that he could do anything he wants with him. Ben will make some noises and look incredibly pained and stressed, but don't worry, he for sure won't have been the victim of anything abusive.

By extension, playing with Ben's hair is certainly not an issue. It's a sign of affection. You're being too hard on Snoke. I bet he had a rough childhood. No childhood really. Born fully grown and deformed, and a puppet for the most evil man in the galaxy. Snoke is the real victim here. Can't believe Kylo savagely cut him in half.

Okay, now you are taking the -

 

[Blade Hoarder]

Wow. Now who's kidding?
What about how he literally ripped Luke's location out of her mind, causing her to scream in agony?
I know you don't like Kylo, but I'm genuinely stunned that you think he's worse than Snoke. Andy Serkis himself described him as a 'predator.' He was the closest thing family friendly Disney had to a child molester.

what’s your point? Both of them are torturers. If him ripping Luke’s location out of his mind is torture, then so is Kylo trying to do the same in TFA. So you finally admit it then?

and of course Kylo is worse than Snoke. That was the entire point of Last Jedi. Him surpassing Snoke and becoming the biggest bastard in the galaxy.

 

[Donner]

I don't know how many times it has to be said that mind probes can be as painful or gentle as the person doing it before people finally get it. I mean, it's that obvious in the reactions of the people getting their mind probed. Sometimes it's so painful the person cries out and sometimes it's not.

It's so effing obvious that Snoke's mind probe and Kylo's were incredibly different.

I don't see mind probing itself as abuse or torture.

 

[Mani-Man]

Shippers or fans in general tend to overlook a lot to make a ship or character work.

There are people who literally think what the Joker did to Harley Quinn, never was abuse.
The fact that the Rebellion killed millions of possibly innocent who just worked for the Empire because there was no other way, is never brought up anywhere...they are all just faceless evil people.

To some extent its neccessary to move the line a bit, because if we have stuff like "magical mind probing" and only have one rule for it, it causes a lot of trouble down the line.
Because then you have to stay the line.

That is why in Star wars we have canon wise the explenation that the force the jedi and sith use, even if its pretty much the same way, has different results.
Force pull for the Jedi, Force Choke for the Sith.
The Jedi mind trick doesnt hurt, the Sith one is like someone drilling a hot knife into someones head.

Which is a problem in this case because Kylo is not fully a sith, to that they never committed.
He was a confused middle thing, which makes his use of the force a bit of a wonky thing.

But, the movie showed us that him going into the mind of people, hurts.
Its not uncomfortable or so, it is literal pain he inflicts.
No matter to who, the only difference is that they needed a dialogue scene and therefore had Rey be more resilient to the pain Kylo inflicted on her.

 

[Sian]

what’s your point? Both of them are torturers. If him ripping Luke’s location out of his mind is torture, then so is Kylo trying to do the same in TFA. So you finally admit it then?

and of course Kylo is worse than Snoke. That was the entire point of Last Jedi. Him surpassing Snoke and becoming the biggest bastard in the galaxy.

I admit nothing - especially to you.
Kylo tortured Poe. He DID NOT torture Rey. Kylo was a powerful Force sensitive - more powerful than Snoke, as shown by how he managed to conceal his intent to kill him in the throne room scene.
If he had wanted to hurt Rey, he would have. For all her own Force power she was unable to prevent Snoke ripping her mind open. He tried to extract the information he wanted without causing her pain, which was why she found she could slip so easily into his mind.

The fact is you hate this character. Fine. But you're allowing your dislike to colour your judgement. I love Kylo, but I still concede he tortured Poe and murdered his father.

He did not however, assault Rey, either physically or sexually. I'm pretty sure that the only reason some individuals are seeing it as such is because she's female. Ironic, as DLF wanted to create a 'strong female lead', yet all her apparent fans want to do is see her as a victim.

 

[henzINNIT]

Can we please stop defending Kylo like he's a real person? This isn't a bunch of people that hate him. We're talking about a character and his function predominantly as an antagonist in the story.

It's really not. One was an older man grooming a young boy (for years) and the other is an interrogation in a war. Completely different situations.

Also, I don't know how many times I have to say it, I didn't see Rey in pain. Scared and uncomfortable, but not in pain. Much like any interrogation would be.

1.) It's entirely possible that Snoke is younger than Kylo, as he emerges from the pickle jar looking that way. We know through his use as a proxy for Palpatine that Snoke is only useful after ROTJ. He's certainly not older than Kylo by much if at all.
2.) You can't use "time of war" as an excuse for several reasons. Torture is never accepted behavior in civilized society, even during wars. Perpetrators would be regarded as war criminals. Also this war you refer to was a genocidal hostile takeover by an evil terrorist organization, and Kylo was the number 2 guy. He isn't granted leeway 'because of war'.

I'm less interested in whether you infer Rey to be in actual, physical pain and more confused as to why this red line has to exist in your reasoning. It seems like a strange qualifier to begin with, trying to categorize the extent of Rey's suffering in a scene where she suffers. Kylo tortures. We all agree on Poe at least right? If the point was to show Kylo not harming Rey, it seems kind of moot when he hurls her into a tree later on, knocking her out cold.

Shippers or fans in general tend to overlook a lot to make a ship or character work.

There are people who literally think what the Joker did to Harley Quinn, never was abuse.
The fact that the Rebellion killed millions of possibly innocent who just worked for the Empire because there was no other way, is never brought up anywhere...they are all just faceless evil people.

To some extent its neccessary to move the line a bit, because if we have stuff like "magical mind probing" and only have one rule for it, it causes a lot of trouble down the line.
Because then you have to stay the line.

That is why in Star wars we have canon wise the explenation that the force the jedi and sith use, even if its pretty much the same way, has different results.
Force pull for the Jedi, Force Choke for the Sith.
The Jedi mind trick doesnt hurt, the Sith one is like someone drilling a hot knife into someones head.

Which is a problem in this case because Kylo is not fully a sith, to that they never committed.
He was a confused middle thing, which makes his use of the force a bit of a wonky thing.

But, the movie showed us that him going into the mind of people, hurts.
Its not uncomfortable or so, it is literal pain he inflicts.
No matter to who, the only difference is that they needed a dialogue scene and therefore had Rey be more resilient to the pain Kylo inflicted on her.

Agreed on this. I find it all quite curious. I thought people would ship Kylo because he's a thicc emo bad boy. I don't see the benefit of sanding off all his edges and trying to explain away his deeds.

 

[Bobber]

Invading someone's mind against their will seems pretty abusive.
I think the only reason Poe seemed to be in more pain than Rey is because she was actually able to fight back. Poe struggled but had no chance.

 

[Donner]

Can we please stop defending Kylo like he's a real person? This isn't a bunch of people that hate him. We're talking about a character and his function predominantly as an antagonist in the story.



1.) It's entirely possible that Snoke is younger than Kylo, as he emerges from the pickle jar looking that way. We know through his use as a proxy for Palpatine that Snoke is only useful after ROTJ. He's certainly not older than Kylo by much if at all.
2.) You can't use "time of war" as an excuse for several reasons. Torture is never accepted behavior in civilized society, even during wars. Perpetrators would be regarded as war criminals. Also this war you refer to was a genocidal hostile takeover by an evil terrorist organization, and Kylo was the number 2 guy. He isn't granted leeway 'because of war'.

I'm less interested in whether you infer Rey to be in actual, physical pain and more confused as to why this red line has to exist in your reasoning. It seems like a strange qualifier to begin with, trying to categorize the extent of Rey's suffering in a scene where she suffers. Kylo tortures. We all agree on Poe at least right? If the point was to show Kylo not harming Rey, it seems kind of moot when he hurls her into a tree later on, knocking her out cold.



Agreed on this. I find it all quite curious. I thought people would ship Kylo because he's a thicc emo bad boy. I don't see the benefit of sanding off all his edges and trying to explain away his deeds.

This is the last time I'm going to say this. I didn't see that scene as abuse or torture and I've stated my reasons for interpreting it that way. You don't accept it and I don't care, because it doesn't matter. Your opinion doesn't negate mine or make it wrong. I'm not trying to make Kylo less bad in order to feel better about the ship. And to suggest a thing is pretty misogynistic.

You guys need to let things go. People are different and Star Wars is for everyone and they're allowed to interpret the movies as they see fit. You have no authority to say their interpretations are wrong or to imply that people will forgive abuse and torture so two characters can get together.

For the record, I've perused other Star Wars forums and male fans have made arguments the same as mine. Not that that should be good enough to leave this alone, but maybe you'll accept the opinions of men over women. Who knows. Either way, just accept that there are differences in opinion.

 

[henzINNIT]

This is the last time I'm going to say this. I didn't see that scene as abuse or torture and I've stated my reasons for interpreting it that way. You don't accept it and I don't care, because it doesn't matter. Your opinion doesn't negate mine or make it wrong. I'm not trying to make Kylo less bad in order to feel better about the ship. And to suggest a thing is pretty misogynistic.

You guys need to let things go. People are different and Star Wars is for everyone and they're allowed to interpret the movies as they see fit. You have no authority to say their interpretations are wrong or to imply that people will forgive abuse and torture so two characters can get together.

For the record, I've perused other Star Wars forums and male fans have made arguments the same as mine. Not that that should be good enough to leave this alone, but maybe you'll accept the opinions of men over women. Who knows. Either way, just accept that there are differences in opinion.

I never assumed your gender or based any of my argument on that assumption. I genuinely never considered it until this post. It didn't matter to me then and doesn't now. Naturally, I don't care if men have agreed with you elsewhere, I am not that pathetically prejudiced. Please don't take this conversation in that direction.

I hope you aren't taking this too personally. I'm not trying to shame you or anything. I just like to debate about Star Wars. And I think your take on this particular scene is junk. But that is all, I assure you.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

While healthy debate over some controversial topics is encouraged, this unfettered name calling and insults will NOT be tolerated! Everyone has said their piece so I suggest posters drop it and calm down before further action becomes necessary.

 

[Sian]

It's funny but the only members of the original characters who survived the ST are the inhuman ones. Chewie, See Threepio, Artoo Detto. Kind of sad, isn't it?