Henry Cavill IS Clark Kent/Superman - Part 10

[MydnightPhoenix]

Superman isn't a chatter box in his fights but the thought bubbles go deep into his process. He analyzes the situation and goes through the solutions. He's silent hero because he's busy thinking.

I don't want him being a chatty Cathy but apparently silent action isn't enough for the larger audience.
Clearly to get a better grasp on him as a person the audience needs something else and the best way to build connections is with words and interactions.

 

[_Superman_]

I don't want him being a chatty Cathy but apparently silent action isn't enough for the larger audience.
Clearly to get a better grasp on him as a person the audience needs something else and the best way to build connections is with words and interactions.

And for that you look at Clark Kent and you see where Superman's head and heart is. Look at his scenes in the Daily Planet or when he's talking to his mom or Lois and you see exactly who Superman is just like how you see who Batman is through Bruce.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I hope they have more happy Superman. We had the Mr. Grumpy "She was my World" Superman for a while now.

I love Henry Cavil as Superman. Always have. He does a great job.

My favorite, that gets me every damn time is when he saves Lois(Whats it been, 5 or 6 times now?). I don't know what it is, but he's so fantastic every time. It makes me feel so happy inside lol.

Oh man...What does that say about me? ha

You make some valid points. I don't consider Supes grumpy more just contemplative, but I'm willing to accept that 50% of the audience need more than that. I adore the scene of dream Papa Kent and I understand the story he was trying to say, but maybe it needed to be a dialogue instead of Clark just listening. He could toss back and forth the things that are going on in his head instead of just seeming to listen to his father. Maybe that's part of the problems Supes does too much listening and not enough engaging. IDK these are just ideas going around in my head.

Superman isn't a chatter box in his fights but the thought bubbles go deep into his process. He analyzes the situation and goes through the solutions. He's silent hero because he's busy thinking.

Unfortunately on film we can't have those thought bubbles but there has to be a way to better grasp his inner thoughts.

 

[Willi Berg]

Superman doesn't have to be a chatterbox but I would like him to be more forthright and to speak up about what he thinks and believes. Diana did this really well in the WW movie. She spoke her mind, she came forward about what she felt was right and what wasn't. Superman isn't exactly the same as her but he doesn't have to hold back either.

You make some valid points. I don't consider Supes grumpy more just contemplative, but I'm willing to accept that 50% of the audience need more than that. I adore the scene of dream Papa Kent and I understand the story he was trying to say, but maybe it needed to be a dialogue instead of Clark just listening. He could toss back and forth the things that are going on in his head instead of just seeming to listen to his father. Maybe that's part of the problems Supes does too much listening and not enough engaging. IDK these are just ideas going around in my head..

I agree that Superman isn't one to just stand back and put up with what ever comes his way. I agree that in BvS Superman did a lot of reacting. A lot of contemplating. Batman was the one getting riled up. Diana was very pro-active and spoke her mind.

Superman has to step forward. Tell the world about what he sees, what he doesn't like and what he's not going to put up with. And what needs to be done. Not always asking what Lois thinks, or his mom, or his dead dad/s. Not mired in guilt or regret.

 

[Herolee10]

Honestly, the Superman that I want to see more of is the one that we saw (albeit briefly) confronting the Military in MOS. The confidence and commanding presence that he had when talking with the likes of General Swanick during his interrogation and when he was explaining their plan with the PZ was pure Superman to me.

If we got that version in JL, then I think a lot of people will be happy. Superman may not be a chatterbox but he certainly isn't Blackbolt where silence is forced upon him.

 

[Micromind]

In BvS, Clark Kent did speak his mind a lot to Perry White about falling standards of journalism.

 

[Willi Berg]

In BvS, Clark Kent did speak his mind a lot to Perry White about falling standards of journalism.

Time for Superman to step up.

 

[metaphysician]

Superman isn't a chatter box in his fights but the thought bubbles go deep into his process. He analyzes the situation and goes through the solutions. He's silent hero because he's busy thinking.

Which is nice, and all. . . except that they don't have him say much of anything *outside* fights, either.

 

[misslane38]

There was a purpose to Superman's few words in BvS. Diana ends her movie having concluded that gods shouldn't interfere in the choices humanity makes; she doesn't think she, as a god, should influence them. So she takes a step back from her ideological crusade and becomes a watchful protector. Superman approaches his role as Superman similarly, albeit he's more public, which is why his most significant ideological statements come from him as Clark in the role of reporter.

Why is he concerned about speaking up as Superman? You can see how much the public worries about Superman imposing his will on them. They worry about every act, which would include every word, being construed as political. It's a difficult choice he makes to come forward and speak at Finch's hearing. But he does do it in part because he is asked, welcomed, invited. Then, the only reason we don't get to see him speak is because Lex is determined to silence him and use his decision to engage against him so that trust in Superman can be undermined in the public and in Superman himself.

In fact, the whole film has a thread about the importance of communication or "conversation" as Finch put it, and it suggests that trouble happens when communication breaks down, because communication or conversation isn't unilateral and it's a non-violent way to get at the truth and resolve differences. Clark and Lois both want to report on wrongdoing from Batman and Lex respectively, Perry stymies them because he questions their bias and their evidence. Superman tries to speak at the Capitol, tragedy ensues. Superman tries to talk to Batman, but Bruce is so single-minded that he won't listen and silences Superman with several attacks. He was advised by a victim of Batman's that he only listens to fists, so he even tries a show of strength to get him to stand down and listen. It doesn't work.

Ultimately, it's getting the message of "Save Martha...You're letting him kill Martha," Superman's sacrifice, and Lois' expose on Lex's crimes that turn the tide. In other words, one act of conversation, one action that spoke volumes, and one act of truth through research make the difference sort of like how logos, pathos, and ethos are all valuable tools in persuasive communication.

Given this context and given my affection for the character, I'm definitely excited to see how Superman's speaking evolves going forward.

 

[Tra-El]

There was a purpose to Superman's few words in BvS. Diana ends her movie having concluded that gods shouldn't interfere in the choices humanity makes; she doesn't think she, as a god, should influence them. So she takes a step back from her ideological crusade and becomes a watchful protector. Superman approaches his role as Superman similarly, albeit he's more public, which is why his most significant ideological statements come from him as Clark in the role of reporter.

Why is he concerned about speaking up as Superman? You can see how much the public worries about Superman imposing his will on them. They worry about every act, which would include every word, being construed as political. It's a difficult choice he makes to come forward and speak at Finch's hearing. But he does do it in part because he is asked, welcomed, invited. Then, the only reason we don't get to see him speak is because Lex is determined to silence him and use his decision to engage against him so that trust in Superman can be undermined in the public and in Superman himself.

In fact, the whole film has a thread about the importance of communication or "conversation" as Finch put it, and it suggests that trouble happens when communication breaks down, because communication or conversation isn't unilateral and it's a non-violent way to get at the truth and resolve differences. Clark and Lois both want to report on wrongdoing from Batman and Lex respectively, Perry stymies them because he questions their bias and their evidence. Superman tries to speak at the Capitol, tragedy ensues. Superman tries to talk to Batman, but Bruce is so single-minded that he won't listen and silences Superman with several attacks. He was advised by a victim of Batman's that he only listens to fists, so he even tries a show of strength to get him to stand down and listen. It doesn't work.

Ultimately, it's getting the message of "Save Martha...You're letting him kill Martha," Superman's sacrifice, and Lois' expose on Lex's crimes that turn the tide. In other words, one act of conversation, one action that spoke volumes, and one act of truth through research make the difference sort of like how logos, pathos, and ethos are all valuable tools in persuasive communication.

Given this context and given my affection for the character, I'm definitely excited to see how Superman's speaking evolves going forward.

Beautifully put. Every time I read your posts I get a rush of appreciation from the element posters like you bring to forums. When I'm on the same wavelength with like-minded members reminds me why I come back. Good stuff, misslane and I agree with your sentiments.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I agree that Superman isn't one to just stand back and put up with what ever comes his way. I agree that in BvS Superman did a lot of reacting. A lot of contemplating. Batman was the one getting riled up. Diana was very pro-active and spoke her mind.

He should step up but he also shouldn't go all Quest For Peace either; there has to be a balance so the audience can relate to him while at the same time not wanting to roll their eyes at him. I don't recall who said it but someone a few posts mentioned that the perfect Superman moment was in MoS when he was talking to the military about defeating the Kryptonians. He took charge and was optimistic making everyone feel that this plan could work with just his authority; and even if it was a dire situation he still had time to tease Lois.
Something similar could have been done in the senate scene with him addressing at least some concerns and trying to get across what his purpose is and then the bombing could still happen.
Or as I said earlier, a dialogue between him and ghost JK where he doesn't just listen but also expresses himself so the audience can relate to him more. I love this Supes but even I can accept they need to allow him and Clark to speak more and when he does speak not have it be pessimistic.

 

[Polux]

He should step up but he also shouldn't go all Quest For Peace either; there has to be a balance so the audience can relate to him while at the same time not wanting to roll their eyes at him. I don't recall who said it but someone a few posts mentioned that the perfect Superman moment was in MoS when he was talking to the military about defeating the Kryptonians. He took charge and was optimistic making everyone feel that this plan could work with just his authority; and even if it was a dire situation he still had time to tease Lois.
Something similar could have been done in the senate scene with him addressing at least some concerns and trying to get across what his purpose is and then the bombing could still happen.
Or as I said earlier, a dialogue between him and ghost JK where he doesn't just listen but also expresses himself so the audience can relate to him more. I love this Supes but even I can accept they need to allow him and Clark to speak more and when he does speak not have it be pessimistic.

It would have been nice to see, yeah, but it wouldn't have worked for the story; one of main themes of the movie is that of lack of communication leading to conflict, by allowing him to talk at the senate, everyone's doubts about Superman would've been dissipated, including Bruce's (remember, the hearing was being televised) the conflict and the movie would've ended right there, the minute Superman explain himself.

Regarding the Jonathan Kent scene, a conversation wouldn't be possible simply because Clark is remembering a story his dad told him, so yeah, no convo possible there either.

 

[moviefreak]

Superman caught on BBC camera at Wimbledon today --

 

[misslane38]

Beautifully put. Every time I read your posts I get a rush of appreciation from the element posters like you bring to forums. When I'm on the same wavelength with like-minded members reminds me why I come back. Good stuff, misslane and I agree with your sentiments.

Thank you!

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

It would have been nice to see, yeah, but it wouldn't have worked for the story; one of main themes of the movie is that of lack of communication leading to conflict, by allowing him to talk at the senate, everyone's doubts about Superman would've been dissipated, including Bruce's (remember, the hearing was being televised) the conflict and the movie would've ended right there, the minute Superman explain himself.

Regarding the Jonathan Kent scene, a conversation wouldn't be possible simply because Clark is remembering a story his dad told him, so yeah, no convo possible there either.

Clark is remembering a story but he is also visualizing his father actually being there when he isn't. He is not just having a flashback, the entire thing is taking place in his head and it is like one of those thought bubbles that was mentioned earlier. Therefore it wouldn't hurt for him to do more speaking than he does in the scene so the audience can get a good grasp on what exactly is going on in his head. In addition it is possibly this moment that gives him strength to go back to being Superman so it could have been productive to see him express that strength returning to him.

Again I am trying to see this from the POV of the 40% of the audience who did not embrace this Superman and trying to come up with ways that he could have been received better.

Superman caught on BBC camera at Wimbledon today --

Looks like a nice outfit, though he could be wearing brown shoes which would just ruin it.

 

[Polux]

Clark is remembering a story but he is also visualizing his father actually being there when he isn't. He is not just having a flashback, the entire thing is taking place in his head and it is like one of those thought bubbles that was mentioned earlier. Therefore it wouldn't hurt for him to do more speaking than he does in the scene so the audience can get a good grasp on what exactly is going on in his head. In addition it is possibly this moment that gives him strength to go back to being Superman so it could have been productive to see him express that strength returning to him.

Again I am trying to see this from the POV of the 40% of the audience who did not embrace this Superman and trying to come up with ways that he could have been received better.


Looks like a nice outfit, though he could be wearing brown shoes which would just ruin it.

Yeah I get it, but I think if anything him interacting with his dad would have made that moment confusing, Jonathan monologuing an Clark's reaction make it obvious early on that it's a memory that's been replayed in Clark's mind, of course since he's visualizing his dad and it's all playing in his head, he could interact with him and talk, but that would make Jonathan's reactions to Clark actually just Clark's imagination, so then becomes a matter of "what's an actual memory? What's Clark just talking to himself?" and that would also dilute the lesson about consequences that Clark learned through Jonathan own personal experience.

Also the whole idea of presenting Superman in an almost monolithic, god-like figure was to emphasize how the world sees him, which I guess is what a lot of people didn't like, but I'm pretty sure next time we see him, with him being now accepted as a hero by most people, he'll be presented more as a "man" than a "god", if that makes any sense.

And what's wrong with brown shoes...??

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I've seen many people say they were already confused by the Jonathan scene. Don't ask me how because I thought it was obvious what was going on. It's possible that having him have a convo with his father would have further confused people but it's also possible that it might not have; so having a dialogue could potentially kill 2 birds with one stone. ..possibly.

And it looks like he is wearing black and apparently it's a faux pas to wear brown and black together. Idk I'm not Joan Rivers.

 

[misslane38]

I smiled to myself when I saw that in Moana, Moana speaks to the memory of her mentor and grandmother when she is at her lowest point, ready to give up.

I realize that the story itself allows for magical occurrences, so it might seem more organic that way. But, still, it seems that what Snyder did with the Jonathan/Clark scene was actually a very conventional thing to do and suited the other Hamlet allusions the film has.

 

[Polux]

I've seen many people say they were already confused by the Jonathan scene. Don't ask me how because I thought it was obvious what was going on. It's possible that having him have a convo with his father would have further confused people but it's also possible that it might not have; so having a dialogue could potentially kill 2 birds with one stone. ..possibly.

And it looks like he is wearing black and apparently it's a faux pas to wear brown and black together. Idk I'm not Joan Rivers.

Huh...how bout that?? I wouldn't really know and I never cared about that colors you "can/can't" combine, hell, I'll wear red and purple together because TRY AND STOP ME!!!


t:

 

[Polux]

I smiled to myself when I saw that in Moana, Moana speaks to the memory of her mentor and grandmother when she is at her lowest point, ready to give up.

I realize that the story itself allows for magical occurrences, so it might seem more organic that way. But, still, it seems that what Snyder did with the Jonathan/Clark scene was actually a very conventional thing to do and suited the other Hamlet allusions the film has.

Is actually funny that it didn't remind me of Clark/Jonathan when I saw it recently...I guess I just kinda tap out with Pixar movies because I feel like they're all the exact same movie...but whatever, it was a nice one anyways

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Huh...how bout that?? I wouldn't really know and I never cared about that colors you "can/can't" combine, hell, I'll wear red and purple together because TRY AND STOP ME!!!


t:

You're not supposed to wear red and purple together? You see I know nothing.

 

[Polux]

You're not supposed to wear red and purple together? You see I know nothing.

That's what everybody keeps telling me.

 

[misslane38]

Is actually funny that it didn't remind me of Clark/Jonathan when I saw it recently...I guess I just kinda tap out with Pixar movies because I feel like they're all the exact same movie...but whatever, it was a nice one anyways

How about the scene between Simba and his father in The Lion King? That film is actually based on Hamlet. In fact, Simba watched his father die like Clark did, and Simba later communes with his father's spirit who tells him to remember who he is.

 

[Herolee10]

How about the scene between Simba and his father in The Lion King? That film is actually based on Hamlet. In fact, Simba watched his father die like Clark did, and Simba later communes with his father's spirit who tells him to remember who he is.

So which deceased father would you prefer for Clark to encounter in that matter? Jonathan Kent or Jor-el?

 

[Polux]

How about the scene between Simba and his father in The Lion King? That film is actually based on Hamlet. In fact, Simba watched his father die like Clark did, and Simba later communes with his father's spirit who tells him to remember who he is.

Well, in that case it would be the other way around, with BvS reminding me of The Lion King since I saw the latter one first and it just happens to be one of the best movies ever

But honestly, even to this day, every time I watch BvS I get completely immersed and don't really think about anything else, which is something I cannot really say about most movies/shows, so that's another thing I appreciate about these movies.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that The Lion King answered the question of "How could you possibly improve Hamlet?" - "With lions, DUH!!"