Justice League Henry Cavill IS Clark Kent/Superman - - - - - - - - - - Part 19

[Micromind]

JJ's movies give you popcorn experience but not a satisfying popcorn experience.

 

[Predator jp]

tbh i welcome anything at this point, i just want to see Cavill in cape again.

 

[Tra-El]

tbh i welcome anything at this point, i just want to see Cavill in cape again.

Yes. In a weird way, this pandemic could help Henry. If things in Hollywood has halted, it buys him time for him and his Superman for the studio. I'd settle for the Snyder Cut and the Black Adam showdown. I just want to see him written well and play with great material before he officially hangs it up.

 

[STARMAN]

I expect Henry will make a guest appearance in the Garcia produced films. So we'll see him again in some capacity beyond the Snydercut. The Witcher is supposed to resume filming August 17.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

Isn't that exactly what Superman needs right now?
The general audience were divisive over Snyder's films - to get Superman back where he belongs, he needs a big audience pleasing blockbuster. Something that is liked by critics and audiences and restores his popularity.

You make a good point.

JJ's movies give you popcorn experience but not not a satisfying popcorn experience.

It depends. As a longtime Trekkie, I loved Star Trek 2009 when I first watched it. It seemed like a perfect popcorn distillation of the Star Trek experience. It was Star Trek Into Darkness where things started to go downhill for me.

Oh, I was entertained enough while I was sitting there watching it in the theatre. But by the time I was in the parking lot, the criticisms were already surfacing. Benedict Cumberbatch never seemed like Khan to me. The whole idea that they would go back to Khan when the reboot had supposedly wiped the slate clean and offered them a universe full of new creative possibilities was, in a word, lame.

Then, as is typical with Abrams's work, the more I thought about Into Darkness, the more I disliked it. I realized that Dr. McCoy effectively learned how to cure death with magic blood. I recognized how stupid and scientifically illiterate a lot of it was, like Spock saying that things need to be cold for "cold fusion". The fact that the writers were 9/11 Truthers became more and more obvious. The fact that they repeated dialogue literally word-for-word from Wrath of Khan as the climax of the movie showed me more than anything the creative bankruptcy of the entire project.

Star Trek Beyond may not have been directed by Abrams, but it was the logical culmination of the reboot for me in that it was instantly forgettable. In any case, Abrams's influence is all over it, e.g. the use of the Beastie Boys again. By this point, I was starting to recognize the flaws in the 2009 Star Trek. I began to see, as so many on the Internet had, that it was Star Trek redone as Star Wars: A New Hope. I also saw that so much of what I liked about Star Trek—the intelligent exploration of other worlds, learning how alien races organized their societies; in a word, a focus on ideas—was missing. Instead, Star Trek had become just another dumb action movie, with lots of explosions and characters running down corridors and pew-pew-pew. People can complain all they want about William Shatner overacting, but Chris Pine turned Kirk into a one-note horndog caricature. That's not Pine's fault; it's the writing.

Let me add a caveat to my last comment in this thread. I do not want to see J.J. Abrams as the director of a new Superman movie. But I would happy to see him as a producer, if only to get the movie made. However, I don't want a dumb movie that feels entertaining in the moment and then seems more awful the more you think about it. I would want someone like Christopher McQuarrie directing.

Maybe this is another reason why I tend to defend Zack Snyder despite all the obvious flaws of his movies. The man is a master of visuals, but a poor storyteller. Yet he at least swings for the fences. With a film like Batman v Superman, he made a flawed epic. But I appreciate someone who attempts to do something intelligent and different and fails over someone who is content to churn out product calculated to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

 

[STARMAN]

I would love McQuarrie but I'm not sure he would reconsider after the studio burned him last time. Anything is possible as we've seen with Snyder.

I enjoy most of Abrams' films. I love Mission Impossible III and Start Trek 2009. Both when I first saw them and upon repeated viewings.

A good film should hold up under scrutiny but I look to be entertained first. If I'm not enjoying myself then I'm not going to care about the deeper meanings lying beneath or reward a filmmaker's attempt at creating something mythical.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

A good film should hold up under scrutiny but I look to be entertained first. If I'm not enjoying myself then I'm not going to care about the deeper meanings lying beneath or reward a filmmaker's attempt at creating something mythical.

Maybe that's another reason I enjoy Snyder's films, because quite frankly, I am highly entertained while watching them. Is that because his films are just so beautiful to look at? That's part of it. I find they have a high rewatchability factor.

Unfortunately, Henry's Superman was not well served by those films as a whole. I appreciated that MOS took Superman seriously. BvS was an interesting exploration of the meaning of Superman, but too much good material in that regard was left for the Ultimate Edition. That's partly why I see the UE as the only real version of the movie. In the end, it was hard to avoid the suspicion that Snyder just doesn't really understand the character of Superman.

When I found out that Snyder was a big fan of Ayn Rand, that was my big "aha" moment. It explains so much about his take on Superman. And in that regard, his Superman is not my Superman. But I still like the fact that he tried to go somewhere different with the character. Henry Cavill was a great Superman in any case and played it to the best of his ability.

 

[Micromind]

I dunno, Superman is not shown as a selfish person or someone whose actions follow radian philosophy.

Also anyone liking fountainhead doesn't make him Randian.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

The things that his parents (both natural and foster) say to him seem more Randian.

Almost all of their dialogue to Kal-El is telling him how important he is, how he can lead them, be an example humanity will look up to. My own view of Superman is that he is one of us, but the best of us. Snyder's interpretation seems to lean more on the idea that he's the best of us. He turns Superman into a Dr. Manhattan-style figure who is alienated from humanity.

 

[heatvision38]

The things that his parents (both natural and foster) say to him seem more Randian.

Almost all of their dialogue to Kal-El is telling him how important he is, how he can lead them, be an example humanity will look up to. My own view of Superman is that he is one of us, but the best of us. Snyder's interpretation seems to lean more on the idea that he's the best of us. He turns Superman into a Dr. Manhattan-style figure who is alienated from humanity.

But this isn't new in Superman lore. Pa Kent in Superman the Movie talks about how he knows he's here for a reason, and it's not to score touchdowns. That speaks to Jonathan telling Clark he has a special role to play in this world.



Same goes for Smallville where his father often talks about the good Clark can do in the world.

It's only natural that in a more realistic setting, this is the advice Clark would be getting. One major difference that can alienate Clark a bit is that he doesn't really find out where he comes from until his 30's, unlike other versions. He does find out he's an alien as a young teenager in MOS, but that's it. So he goes exploring the world for a long time trying to find his place, where he comes from, what that key is supposed to be for. In doing so, it does also serve to distance himself somewhat. I don't agree that he is turned into a Dr. Manhattan figure at all. If anything, this Clark is very human. He's also just unsure of his place, and he knows he's so different from everybody. It's a lot for anyone to try to process from that young and age and forward, so he's not the most social person. He seems to be more patient, deliberate, thoughtful, observant.

 

[Micromind]

So telling a gifted person that he's special and he should help others and set some examples for others to follow is Randian ?

What's the other alternative ? Should his Earth parents let him live an ordinary life ?

 

[SVSuperman]

I Hope HBO Max make sequels to the Snydecut so Henry Cavill can stay as Kal-El for many years to come!

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

But this isn't new in Superman lore. Pa Kent in Superman the Movie talks about how he knows he's here for a reason, and it's not to score touchdowns. That speaks to Jonathan telling Clark he has a special role to play in this world.



Same goes for Smallville where his father often talks about the good Clark can do in the world.

It's only natural that in a more realistic setting, this is the advice Clark would be getting. One major difference that can alienate Clark a bit is that he doesn't really find out where he comes from until his 30's, unlike other versions. He does find out he's an alien as a young teenager in MOS, but that's it. So he goes exploring the world for a long time trying to find his place, where he comes from, what that key is supposed to be for. In doing so, it does also serve to distance himself somewhat. I don't agree that he is turned into a Dr. Manhattan figure at all. If anything, this Clark is very human. He's also just unsure of his place, and he knows he's so different from everybody. It's a lot for anyone to try to process from that young and age and forward, so he's not the most social person. He seems to be more patient, deliberate, thoughtful, observant.

Good post. I think I need to refine a bit what I'm trying to say.

Both Donner and Snyder portray Superman as an exceptional person, because obviously he is. But I feel Snyder leans into it a bit more: the dialogue between Jor-El and Lara at the beginning where Jor-El says "He'll be a god to them", for example.

Ultimately, I think the reason I get this impression is more because of the third act of MOS, as well as Superman's demeanor throughout much of BvS. Where Christopher Reeve's Superman expressed concern for innocent civilians during his battle with the Kryptonians in Superman II, Henry Cavill's Superman destroyed whole buildings in his battle with Zod, doubtless leading to the deaths of countless people, and yet doesn't seem fazed by it at all. The moment where he kills Zod to save the family at the end is a weak attempt to compensate for his seeming indifference to human life that categorized the rest of the climax.

In BvS, Superman appears to help people out of some sense of grim obligation. He rarely seems happy when he's saving people, unlike Reeve's upbeat demeanor when he saves Lois during his debut in STM. Then you have Snyder's direction reinforcing the image of Superman as this distant god-like figure. That moment in the montage when the woman in the flooded area reaches out to Superman, who appears in silhouette hovering above the family like he's in no rush to save them, is a good example.

Another example of how Snyder's Superman comes off as more Randian than Donner's is in the scene when Martha Kent tells him, "You don't owe this world a thing. You never did." With Donner's Superman there seemed to be some indication that he should use his great gifts for the benefit of humanity; to use a motto from another superhero, "with great power comes great responsibility." But with Snyder's Superman, his parents are basically telling him to look out for number one.

Remember the scene in MOS when Jonathan suggested that Clark should have let a bus full of schoolkids die in order to protect his secret? That's what I mean.

So telling a gifted person that he's special and he should help others and set some examples for others to follow is Randian ?

What's the other alternative ? Should his Earth parents let him live an ordinary life ?

See above. But his Earth parents did suggest in MOS that he should live an ordinary life, when Jonathan tells Clark that maybe he could become a farmer.

 

[heatvision38]

Good post. I think I need to refine a bit what I'm trying to say.

Both Donner and Snyder portray Superman as an exceptional person, because obviously he is. But I feel Snyder leans into it a bit more: the dialogue between Jor-El and Lara at the beginning where Jor-El says "He'll be a god to them", for example.

Ultimately, I think the reason I get this impression is more because of the third act of MOS, as well as Superman's demeanor throughout much of BvS. Where Christopher Reeve's Superman expressed concern for innocent civilians during his battle with the Kryptonians in Superman II, Henry Cavill's Superman destroyed whole buildings in his battle with Zod, doubtless leading to the deaths of countless people, and yet doesn't seem fazed by it at all. The moment where he kills Zod to save the family at the end is a weak attempt to compensate for his seeming indifference to human life that categorized the rest of the climax.

In BvS, Superman appears to help people out of some sense of grim obligation. He rarely seems happy when he's saving people, unlike Reeve's upbeat demeanor when he saves Lois during his debut in STM. Then you have Snyder's direction reinforcing the image of Superman as this distant god-like figure. That moment in the montage when the woman in the flooded area reaches out to Superman, who appears in silhouette hovering above the family like he's in no rush to save them, is a good example.

Another example of how Snyder's Superman comes off as more Randian than Donner's is in the scene when Martha Kent tells him, "You don't owe this world a thing. You never did." With Donner's Superman there seemed to be some indication that he should use his great gifts for the benefit of humanity; to use a motto from another superhero, "with great power comes great responsibility." But with Snyder's Superman, his parents are basically telling him to look out for number one.

Remember the scene in MOS when Jonathan suggested that Clark should have let a bus full of schoolkids die in order to protect his secret? That's what I mean.



See above. But his Earth parents did suggest in MOS that he should live an ordinary life, when Jonathan tells Clark that maybe he could become a farmer.

I hear what you're saying, but I think it's just a different take on how Clark views himself in the world. The Martha dialogue is more realistic than fantasy imo. So I'm not so sure it's about any philosophy on Snyder's part so much as trying to really ask the tough questions. How would these parents handle this extraordinary circumstance. What would a loving mother say to her son who felt the weight of the world on his shoulders and was starting to get criticized for everything he does. Would that mother say, "Clark, now, now, you have to do what's right, you know that," and thus put even more pressure on him, or would she she say something like, "Clark, honey, it's up to you, it has to be your decision to help, not because you have to, but because you believe in it. I know your heart, and I'm proud of you no matter what, but it's up to you."

The second response seems more realistic, more human, more motherly.

With Superman II (and to be clear, I absolutely adore the first 2 Christopher Reeve movies and they played a huge role in my childhood), Superman does call out Zod right there in the middle of Metropolis. He doesn't try to get them to chase him away from the city until AFTER he sees all the destruction. A main difference is that Donner took a more fantastic, safer approach to directing this sequence so not as much destruction is shown. But with beings of this power, what we saw in MOS is more realistic. So it's less about the choices Clark made (because he did the same thing in both movies), but rather how realistically the battle was depicted by their respective directors.

With respect to BvS and Superman being grim about saving people, I think that has more to do with Clark feeling the weight of the world. Remember, Luthor has been working behind the scenes to foment negative feelings against Superman. It's not unlike what's going on in the US today. There is already two different countries within one, two very different ways of viewing one's role in this country, but now we have a president that stokes the worst qualities in some people, that inflames the fears and anger and bigotry that was already there. Luthor is doing the same, but surreptitiously. The more things go wrong for Superman, the more that division comes out, the more Clark, who is still relatively new to this Superman role, is struggling with what his role is, how best to be Superman. He rescues the girl in Mexico, and he does have a kind smile on his face as he brings her to the ground:



It isn't until they all swarm him and treat him like a god that he begins to get uncomfortable. From his perspective, he's just a guy from Kansas who can do amazing things. The difference between Donner's Superman and Snyder's is Snyder is interested in showing Superman in a complex world, our world. What if people were in danger in another country that the US wasn't allowed in, should Superman just allow it to happen? Clark, who knows how fragile life is given that his whole race was wiped out, who has seen the planet from a perspective only astronauts have, doesn't see the borders and divisions like everyone else does, yet he also is becoming aware that every act is a political one and comes with controversy. How does such a being square away trying to do good in the world with the likelihood of overstepping boundaries, and what are those boundaries, when does he cross them and when doesn't he?

To me, BvS is exploring how he tries to figure all this out, but it's also exacerbated by Luthor behind the scenes. By the end of BvS, he has gone through his dark night of the soul (pun intended), and has, once and for all, made the declaration, "This is my world." He has come out the other side with renewed commitment and even sacrifices himself for it. Snyder never intended for Superman to always struggle with being Superman. He just presented to us the inevitable complexity of what such a being would mean to this world and how we would all struggle with how we feel about it. "They will stumble, they will fall, but in time, they will join you in the sun." We are seeing that play out, and I've always taken the line a step further (especially in light of BvS), that it also meant that Clark himself would stumble and fall, but in time, he would rise to the Superman we all know and love. Snyder's plan was/is to then show Superman AS Superman through the JL story. So it's no longer just Clark sort of playing at Superman, but Clark truly BEING Superman (or at least finding that balance in his life where he loves being both Clark and Superman). Snyder is just showing us the journey in getting there. It's not unlike what Smallville does except that in MOS we see it with adult Clark once he becomes Superman rather than the teenage/young adult years of Clark as he works his way towards growing up in the role BEFORE he becomes Superman.

That's my view anyway. Good discussion.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

I hear what you're saying, but I think it's just a different take on how Clark views himself in the world. The Martha dialogue is more realistic than fantasy imo. So I'm not so sure it's about any philosophy on Snyder's part so much as trying to really ask the tough questions. How would these parents handle this extraordinary circumstance. What would a loving mother say to her son who felt the weight of the world on his shoulders and was starting to get criticized for everything he does. Would that mother say, "Clark, now, now, you have to do what's right, you know that," and thus put even more pressure on him, or would she she say something like, "Clark, honey, it's up to you, it has to be your decision to help, not because you have to, but because you believe in it. I know your heart, and I'm proud of you no matter what, but it's up to you."

The second response seems more realistic, more human, more motherly.

Personally, I feel more like this is an indication of how values have changed over the last few decades. Even as late as 1978, there was a perception that one had to do certain things out of a sense of duty, for the greater good. Now, everything comes down to "What's good for me, personally?"

I don't feel like the latter is more "realistic". I feel that the latter expresses better the dominant ideology of 21st century America, for better or for worse. But let's not forget that even in the 1970s, there were similar attitudes of pessimism and cynicism in the wake of the Vietnam War, Nixon's resignation and so forth. The whole appeal of Reeve's Superman was that he represented an antidote to that. When he says he stands for "truth, justice and the American way", Margot Kidder's Lois laughs and responds with "You're gonna end up fighting every elected official in this country!"

With Cavill's Superman, rather than representing a bright light in a sea of darkness, it seems they tried to bring him down to our level. I always think of that line in BvS where he says "No one stays good in this world", because to me it is the most un-Superman line the character could utter.

You can make an argument that Snyder is trying to do something different, and I get that. But it doesn't mean this makes for a more successful interpretation of the character in the end.

With Superman II (and to be clear, I absolutely adore the first 2 Christopher Reeve movies and they played a huge role in my childhood), Superman does call out Zod right there in the middle of Metropolis. He doesn't try to get them to chase him away from the city until AFTER he sees all the destruction. A main difference is that Donner took a more fantastic, safer approach to directing this sequence so not as much destruction is shown. But with beings of this power, what we saw in MOS is more realistic. So it's less about the choices Clark made (because he did the same thing in both movies), but rather how realistically the battle was depicted by their respective directors.

Maybe the issue is that superhero comics, movies and TV shows in the end are about wish fulfillment. We don't want to see these heroes as flawed, as making mistakes.

A lot of the defenders of the third act of MOS will say that Superman couldn't do anything other than what he did, because he was struggling to beat a Kryptonian of equal power and he had no experience of this kind of battle. I do find that a compelling argument.

It isn't until they all swarm him and treat him like a god that he begins to get uncomfortable. From his perspective, he's just a guy from Kansas who can do amazing things.

That's the philosophy behind one of my favourite lines from BvS: "Maybe he's just a guy trying to do the right thing." It summarizes so much of what I love about Superman. Rather than this god-like Dr. Manhattan figure, I view him as an ordinary dude gifted with incredible abilities who just wants to do what's right.

Chris Evans actually embodied this type of character perfectly as Captain America. But in that case they could lean on the idea that he was from the past and therefore embodied "old-fashioned" virtues. Yet I feel the more positive reaction to Evan's Cap than Cavill's Superman is in part because people want to have that kind of solid, archetypal heroic figure. By trying to "update" Superman through making him gritty, self-serious and plagued by doubt, filmmakers have diluted much of what makes Superman so appealing to begin with.

In any case, I agree, great discussion.

 

[Tra-El]

I Hope HBO Max make sequels to the Snydecut so Henry Cavill can stay as Kal-El for many years to come!

 

[Tra-El]

AT&T getting in the HYPE today. Multiple Superman gifs. One of them was "We are preparing for the excitment as well" with a Henry Cavill gif.

 

[SupermanFan]

AT&T getting in the HYPE today. Multiple Superman gifs. One of them was "We are preparing for the excitment as well" with a Henry Cavill gif.

This one?

 

[Arachnerd]

Tra-El looking particularly like Henry Cavill in that new avatar.

 

[Tra-El]

Tra-El looking particularly like Henry Cavill in that new avatar.

I look more like Henry in person. My LCS always bring it up. Everyone knows I love the guy. I feel like he's my long lost brother. I took to his Superman instantly and it's why I make it clear how the dude is my Superman. Even reading his IG stories and his nerdiness, he reminds me of me. That may sound weird, but it's true. Got a quick funny story:

Back in August 2016 for my wife and I's one year wedding anniversary, we decided to travel and do this big wine tasting event. Took an entire weekend. You meet up with different couples and whomever else and go on this bus ride through the grapevines. You basically wine-hop from city to city.

By stop #4, I was feeling pretty tipsy and this one dude who was sitting next to me leans over and says "You look like that new Batman versus Superman guy". Me (knowing basically all behind the scenes stuff) start telling him how I was Henry Cavill's stand-in on the set of BvS in Detroit and how it was my job to set Henry's scenes up for his shots. The dude went out of his mind. I just kept feeding him stuff and my wife kept hitting my arm the entire time..super embarrassed. When we got up to leave, I shook his hand and when I turned to look back, he was just staring wide-eyed with his jaw dropped to the floor. I laughed my ass off the entire way back with my wife shaking her head lol.

 

[Arachnerd]

Well, we already know who WB should call in case Cavill doesn't come back to play the role.

 

[Tra-El]

Well, we already know who WB should call in case Cavill doesn't come back to play the role.

Hah! If WB called me I'd be all like "Dude, what the hell are you guys doing calling a nobody. Call Henry back right now. RIGHT NOW!" *click* lol.

There is a big budget fan-made movie being made (not sure if Covid axed it) called Superman vs Doomsday and they wanted anyone and everyone to send in information. I actually got through and their people wanted multiple head shots from different specific angles, etc. Then life kept happening and I forgot all about it until they cast (I actually think it was a Cosplayer). It's all in good fun on my end and just for my love of the character, nothing else. I shared my headshots with only one Hypster (who is my go-to)

 

[Greenlite]

WB need to make an Elseworld movie starring Tra-El as Kal-El, written by Black Narcissus, and directed by herolee, it's gonna be like, the superman movie of our generation

 

[Micromind]

Would definitely check a Superman fan film by Tra-El, with him as Supes.

 

[Da-Scribe]

WB need to make an Elseworld movie starring Tra-El as Kal-El, written by Black Narcissus, and directed by herolee, it's gonna be like, the superman movie of our generation

Just take me straight to the BTS documentary.