Justice League Henry Cavill IS Clark Kent/Superman - - - - - - - - - - Part 19

Fans, and after so many false starts, Studio might be on same page. Fans have a checklist of features that a Superman movie should have, for example they want it to be light-hearted, uplifting, avoid dealing with controversial real world issues, which is equivalent to them imposing requirements.

Why can't a light-hearted, uplifting movie also deal with controversial real world issues?
 
Mark Waid did it the best, IMO. Honestly, my dream Superman origin movie is just a straight-up adaptation of Birthright, minus the "Clark and Lex were friends in Smallville" aspect, toning down the emphasis on the performance aspect of Metropolis Clark a bit (which only lasts for his first few scenes in that story really anyway), and adding the little bookends with the old lady in Metropolis from Secret Origin (which is a story I find to be basic as hell, but that one tiny part was super cute).

I liked Waid's birthright for the most part but he didn't exactly write his Superman to be intelligent "no pa, I just think fast, Lex was a real genius" and Intelligence was one of the hallmarks of the character until the Byrne reboot.
Birthright was excellent in parts but also overtly long IMO, I think the whole thing could've been done in 6 issues.
One thought I did have was the ending with the fake krpytonian army, if I were to do that on film I would turn that fake army into a Lex backed up ISIS-esque army of international fundamentalists who view Superman as god and themselves as his disciples and as such commit atrocities in Superman's name under the guise of "fighting evil", kinda like what's happening with the real ISIS and how they pervert the message of Islam. I think that would add a real world flavor to Superman's story and would present a real challenge to the character since how would Clark deal with a bunch of fanatic humans who sully his name, not exactly the type of problem that Superman can punch through.

By the way, I think JJ could write a good Supes movie on his own. He's a better writer than the ones who normally write his movies. His writing work on Lost & Alias (plus the later draft of his Superman: Flyby screenplay) were all better than the writing teams he had on M:I-3, Star Trek and Star Wars, imo. But I mean, if he actually got a good writer like McQuarrie or someone on board, instead of the likes of Chris Terrio, Orci or Kurtzman, I certainly wouldn't complain, either.

Agreed, while I hated some of the hocky crap he put into his script (Jor-el suicide, Jor-el evil, Lex a shoe salesman, lex kryptonian etc...) his Superman was the right mix of charm, awkwardness and optimism and if he makes Superman as smart as Morrison, Millar and even Strazensky (in the earth one series Clark's intelligence was "off the charts" according to his high school teacher) have in the past then that's a Superman that I can get behind because ultimately it's getting Superman's characterization right that is the key.
 
Fans, and after so many false starts, Studio might be on same page. Fans have a checklist of features that a Superman movie should have, for example they want it to be light-hearted, uplifting, avoid dealing with controversial real world issues, which is equivalent to them imposing requirements.
I've literally never heard anyone suggest it should avoid dealing with real world issues. "Uplifting, light-hearted" and those types of things are simply hallmarks of the character you can't blame people for expecting after he's been all about that stuff in comics and other media for 80 years. The only problems are the people who consider "fun" a bad word and equate "light-hearted" to "MCU wannabe." Most iconic blockbusters, from Superman to Star Wars to Indiana Jones to Mission: Impossible are light-hearted, and that's not a slight. It's a quality that's rightfully expected by most audiences from a character like Superman, considering of all heroes, he's the one MOST known for being a beacon of hope and positivity. Those qualities in movies usually engender a sense of light-heartedness naturally. That doesn't preclude heavy emotional moments or dealing with real-world issues. And thinking the two are somehow mutually exclusive is a narrow view, and not at all accurate to the reality of movies.
 
Why can't a light-hearted, uplifting movie also deal with controversial real world issues?
They can be but movies can be successful even without these (IM3, IW, TDK, Joker), it should not be about completing a check-list but story should be primary thing over everything else.
 
The most frustrating thing about discussing these movies has always been, and will likely always continue to be the way people on both sides boil it down to the tone and the stuff flickchick mentioned about "People just hated it because he wasn't smiling or cracking jokes!"

I think it's entirely possible to tell a Superman movie that is a fun crowd pleaser and huge hit while also dealing with weighty issues or having a more serious tone. Donner and Snyder are on opposite ends of the spectrum, but those are not by only means the only two ways to make a superhero movie.
 
They can be but movies can be successful even without these (IM3, IW, TDK, Joker), it should not be about completing a chck-list but story should be primary thing over everything else.
IM3, IW and TDK (to a lesser extent) absolutely had those qualities. Joker was movie about a famous fictional psychopath. Superman never needs a movie like that. It's not what he's about. When you're dealing with an existing character not of your own creation that lives in the hearts and minds of millions already, then your primary goal as a temporary custodian for that character (because make no mistake, that's what you are), should be to do right by them and capture the spirit of said character, imo. It's not about a checklist, it's about telling a fresh, relevant story while maintaining the very basic foundational qualities that make that character, that character. No one's asking for specific plot points or aesthetics - that would be the kind of unnecessary checklist you're talking about. You wouldn't want a Han Solo movie where Han acts like Anakin Skywalker, right? Of course not. Audiences want to at least be able to recognize those characters they already know.
 
I liked Waid's birthright for the most part but he didn't exactly write his Superman to be intelligent "no pa, I just think fast, Lex was a real genius" and Intelligence was one of the hallmarks of the character until the Byrne reboot.
Birthright was excellent in parts but also overtly long IMO, I think the whole thing could've been done in 6 issues.
One thought I did have was the ending with the fake krpytonian army, if I were to do that on film I would turn that fake army into a Lex backed up ISIS-esque army of international fundamentalists who view Superman as god and themselves as his disciples and as such commit atrocities in Superman's name under the guise of "fighting evil", kinda like what's happening with the real ISIS and how they pervert the message of Islam. I think that would add a real world flavor to Superman's story and would present a real challenge to the character since how would Clark deal with a bunch of fanatic humans who sully his name, not exactly the type of problem that Superman can punch through.

I thought he was portrayed as intelligent. One scene I recall was how he used radio waves to track Lex down. There were other examples. I also think that while Superman is very intelligent, using said intelligence is another matter and this was still a young Superman. He didn't have that experience yet on that stage.
 
The most frustrating thing about discussing these movies has always been, and will likely always continue to be the way people on both sides boil it down to the tone and the stuff flickchick mentioned about "People just hated it because he wasn't smiling or cracking jokes!"

I think it's entirely possible to tell a Superman movie that is a fun crowd pleaser and huge hit while also dealing with weighty issues or having a more serious tone. Donner and Snyder are on opposite ends of the spectrum, but those are not by only means the only two ways to make a superhero movie.
Exactly. What most fans are asking for is just something more in the middle of that spectrum. Emotions and tones aren't binary, so there's no reason to think in extremes. A character can be funny and light-hearted in one moment and emotional and serious in another, and still ultimately leave people feeling uplifted in the end. To suggest otherwise is a blatant rejection of what movies are all about, imo.

I don't remember the old lady.
The old lady I mentioned was from Secret Origin. Early on in the story, when he first gets to Metropolis, Clark (looking for his new apartment or the Daily Planet or something) accidentally bumps into her on the crowded sidewalk. And he of course immediately apologizes, but she reams him out, telling him to watch where he's going, and is generally just rude and unpleasant. Then, at the end of the story, Superman's flying by up above, and we see some other poor new-in-town sap bump into the same old lady, but this time her demeanor's totally different, much friendlier, and she's all (paraphrasing), "oh don't worry about it young man, you'll fit right in here, we're all always watching the sky for him." It's just a nice little touch I've always loved from an otherwise very bland take on the origin, imo.
 
I thought he was portrayed as intelligent. One scene I recall was how he used radio waves to track Lex down. There were other examples. I also think that while Superman is very intelligent, using said intelligence is another matter and this was still a young Superman. He didn't have that experience yet on that stage.

Using one's abilities correctly can be considered a form of intelligence but there were also bits when Clark looked clueless, like when Lex mentioned Krypton and clark said something to the effect of "what's krypton? Is that some form of a weapon".
People always talk about how Superman vs Lex is brawn vs brain but in the silver age it's always been a chess match between the 2 of 'em because Superman was just as smart as lex and Brainiac. I miss that Superman.
Examples of Superman being intelligent is in Adventures of superman #590 when Superman figured out lex's plan to set him and embarrass politically and turned the tables on him or in Superman unchained when got the upper hand on the more powerful WRAITH by taking him to the center of the earth where the high electromagnetic interference disrupted the villain's abilities etc.......
Superman beating Zod in superman II or various examples in STAS (getting free from his imprisonment in the main man part II) is the kind of stuff I would like to see.

The old lady I mentioned was from Secret Origin. Early on in the story, when he first gets to Metropolis, Clark (looking for his new apartment or the Daily Planet or something) accidentally bumps into her on the crowded sidewalk. And he of course immediately apologizes, but she reams him out, telling him to watch where he's going, and is generally just rude and unpleasant. Then, at the end of the story, Superman's flying by up above, and we see some other poor new-in-town sap bump into the same old lady, but this time her demeanor's totally different, much friendlier, and she's all (paraphrasing), "oh don't worry about it young man, you'll fit right in here, we're all always watching the sky for him." It's just a nice little touch I've always loved from an otherwise very bland take on the origin, imo.

Yeah I liked that part also (in addition to the part where Clark stands up to Corben when they hand shake and impresses Lois). The old lady was used to show that Superman didn't just save the day from the big baddie but he also started inspiring people to become better, a nice touch in an otherwise yet another Superman origin type of story that I could've done without.
 
I didn't mean to focus on light heartedness specifically, more the idea that chasing the dollar could lead down a bad path. It could be too dark, or turn it into a cgi action extravaganza at the expense of story, or focus on a love triangle with Clark and Luthor fighting over Lois, or...

I just worry that someone will say "hey X is popular, let's use that" without considering if it's right for Superman.
 
I didn't mean to focus on light heartedness specifically, more the idea that chasing the dollar could lead down a bad path. It could be too dark, or turn it into a cgi action extravaganza at the expense of story, or focus on a love triangle with Clark and Luthor fighting over Lois, or...

I just worry that someone will say "hey X is popular, let's use that" without considering if it's right for Superman.
I hear you there. That’s always a concern. But I think Abrams is pretty much the least likely filmmaker we’d have to worry about going there, because unlike most of the others discussed here, he has a long-time passionate love for the character and has already demonstrated that he knows exactly what makes Superman, Superman, and appreciates him on those merits, instead of wanting to change him to fit some other mold/story.
 
I hear you there. That’s always a concern. But I think Abrams is pretty much the least likely filmmaker we’d have to worry about going there, because unlike most of the others discussed here, he has a long-time passionate love for the character and has already demonstrated that he knows exactly what makes Superman, Superman, and appreciates him on those merits, instead of wanting to change him to fit some other mold/story.

I hope you're right (assuming it is Abrams).
My main fear with him is what he did to Star Trek. His James Kirk was a caricature based of popular misconceptions of the character, that in many ways was the opposite of who he was in the original series.
Freshly Remember'd: Kirk Drift

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, it's just that he's disappointed me before.
 
Story, levity, familiarity, creativity and crowd acceptance are the ingredients of a movie, especially a superhero movie, crossing that platform of studio expectations.

I just can't stand the fact that it's the Superman character himself that's always blamed for the characters box office short commings when almost every hero that came after him are carbon copies. It comes down to the job of the studio, director and screen writers to present a good story, a good script and an ending that hooks and connects with the audience. If the next Superman film can inspire, then Superman easily shoots back up to the top. In many ways, if the studio can pull that off, Superman is their secret weapon in many ways. They just have to utilize it!
 
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The problem has never been the character or the fans. It's been the filmmakers and to an extent the studio. There is a tendency to mistake seriousness for sophistication. In recent times, they've made him inward, emotionally detached, with the burden of being a hero motif dominating the majority of his movie. There is no joy in what he is doing. No enjoyment of his own life. Rather than inspiring us to rise above our own cynicism, he partakes in it.
 
There is no joy in what he is doing. No enjoyment of his own life. Rather than inspiring us to rise above our own cynicism, he partakes in it.

One of the most enjoyable scenes of MOS for me was Superman taking flight for the first time, and his glee as he does so. He actually enjoys his power of flight, and is as amazed by it as we would be.

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Sadly that was replaced by an utterly downcast and morose Superman in BvS with the weight of the world on his shoulders.
 

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