Justice League Henry Cavill IS Clark Kent/Superman - - - - - - - - - - Part 19

[KillerMcQueen]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. You said they treated Superman with nothing but respect. I asked you to answer how that was the case given the way they treated him at the end of the season.

What I'm saying is Flickchick answered that question:

In fact, HE was the one who came up with the solution Supergirl came to in the finale. HE was the one who provide her with wisdom and words of encouragement when she was doubting herself.

He also helped fight the Daxomites, and comforted Kara in the aftermath of the battle and was supportive of the difficult decision she had to make. He was humble, and supportive of his friends and family, and played a key role in stopping the Daxomites.

 

[MAN O STEEL]

Reposting on this page due to it being the last thing on the other.

Anyone who thinks that they've done honor to Superman at all on this show is out of their mind. Look, Supergirl is cool. She's a good character and a great role model for women and little girls but at the end of the season they have Superman tell Kara that she had made the sacrifice for the greater good of the world that he thinks he couldn't have made. That she's a better hero than him and stronger willed. People, c'mon. This is Superman were talking about. Superman is the ultimate hero who would give up everything he cares about for the entire world because he loves all the world. That abomination on Supergirl is not Superman. Say what you want about Cavills Superman but he willingly gave up his entire life for the world when he took out Doomsday. That's Superman. They brought Superman down to a second tier hero just to build up the woman power crap and they've done nothing but shove that agenda down our throats ever since.

 

[flickchick85]

How was the season finale to the second season doing justice to Superman?

Literally everything I wrote was in reference to that finale, NOT his first appearance. So yes, being the source of strength his cousin needed him to be, his lack of ego in being so proud of her that she beat him, providing the information about the Dakkam-Ur to use against Rhea, giving her guidance and teaching her moves before the fight, and providing words of encouragement when she was at her lowest emotional point in their last scene...that was all Superman. Not to mention the side characters were still fawning over him as they always do. And he wiped the floor with any Daxamites who faced him and casually took out 3 of their warships in 3-seconds like it was nothing. If you want to overlook all that because they had Supergirl beat him in a fight (on HER show) and had him acknowledge it with pride, well, that's your prerogative.

As for giving her villains to him, well, it makes more sense to me than giving Batman's storylines to Green Arrow. At least Supergirl's in Superman's family and shares those villains with him in the comics, and we aren't gonna be seeing Supes deal with most of those characters in a Superman show or movie anytime soon, so why not utilize them. And we know Supes in that show has had previous adventures with Batman, fought General Zod and Lex Luthor on multiple occasions, fought Mongul on Warworld, Reactron, Lobo, and likely countless others to have earned the reputation he has on that show. Just because Kara's gotten some of his smaller-scale villains first doesn't mean he's just been sitting around.

And Supergirl had a co-headlining title with the Legion in recent years in comics, so tying their origins more to her (especially with her romantic connection to Mon-El in the show), made a certain kind of sense in this case, imo. And they explained the lack of Superman as inspiration because Earth's history was lost to them. So it's not like they just found Supergirl more inspiring or something. Mon-El founded them and Kara was HIS inspiration because he loved her. Again, it's not like there's a Superman show out there that this is stealing from. This is a Supergirl-centric show, so it's only natural that elements of the established Super-verse have become more Supergirl-centric within it. Superman is still held in VERY high regard on the show, so they obviously respect him. Just look at the story Jimmy Olsen told about he first time he encountered Superman, and what he meant to him.

 

[heatvision38]

Exactly!!. Anyone who thinks that they've done honor to Superman at all on this show is out of their mind. Look, Supergirl is cool. She's a good character and a great role model for women and little girls but at the end of the season they have Superman tell Kara that she had made the sacrifice for the greater good of the world that he thinks he couldn't have made. That she's a better hero than him and stronger willed. People, c'mon. This is Superman were talking about. Superman is the ultimate hero who would give up everything he cares about for the entire world because he loves all the world. That abomination on Supergirl is not Superman. Say what you want about Cavills Superman but he willingly gave up his entire life for the world when he took out Doomsday. That's Superman. They brought Superman down to a second tier hero just to build up the woman power crap and they've done nothing but shove that agenda down our throats ever since.

Oh jeez, I forgot about that line, the one where he says, "You made the decision that I could never make." Something to that effect. Sure, that supported Kara, but what does it say about Superman? This isn't a more Kryptonian/emotionless Kara that just came to Earth. She's been around for a dozen years, spent half her life here, has human friends and family, and has shown to be pretty human herself.

 

[Micromind]

This thread. Unnecessary doom and gloom, if Cavill gets replaced, then he is also responsible for failed negotiations, maybe he wants to move on.. thing is, we don't know right now.

As for Superman, they will re-cast and make another movie, it may take some time but WB are not going to sit on the property for long time, remember, they have "Special Arrangement with the Jerry Siegel Family".

Siegel Estate have a part of Superman rights with them, as per the deal, WB have to pay them or make a Superman movie after few years (I don't know exactly how many years gap is permitted between two Superman movies.)

So, we will get a Superman movie, only question is Cavill's involvement, but that's also upto Cavill himself..

 

[KillerMcQueen]

So I guess the plan is to ignore literally everything about that episode but a couple lines and a single fight scene, and to also talk about said lines out of context.

 

[flickchick85]

Oh jeez, I forgot about that line, the one where he says, "You made the decision that I could never make." Something to that effect. Sure, that supported Kara, but what does it say about Superman?

It says he believes he could never sacrifice Lois. Which sounds like something Superman would say to me. Kara's generally the more pragmatic one in the comics due to her Kryptonian upbringing (and even on the show, she was raised there for 13 years), so that was entirely in character to me.

 

[heatvision38]

What I'm saying is Flickchick answered that question:


He also helped fight the Daxomites, and comforted Kara in the aftermath of the battle and was supportive of the difficult decision she had to make. He was humble, and supportive of his friends and family, and played a key role in stopping the Daxomites.

He came up with what solution? That Kara should fight Mon-El's mother? If that's the solution you are referring to, that's part of the problem. They set that up so that it would be Kara and only Kara who could fight her. And in doing so, they nerfed Superman. They could have easily gone with the "silver kryptonite weakened Superman and that he was still weakned" rationale, but they purposely did just the opposite. Why do you think that is?

He fought Daxamites, yes, he did this. So did J'onn, Alex, Jimmy, and others. That's a given. And the words of encouragement he gave Kara, while nice, also makes it seem that Superman is not capable of making such a tough decision himself and that, if I recall correctly, has him stating Kara is a better hero than he is.

Now, I ask you this: did this show bring on Superman because it would be fun, or to prop up the show and the character of Supergirl? Before answering, also consider the show's tendency to force social issues at the expense of other characters. It is certainly not beyond the show writers to do the same with Superman, to use him to get people to view the show on the new channel, and in the season finale, to make it clear who the more powerful hero is. Now, on Supergirl, whenever there is a world-ending threat, instead of "Where is Superman?", it's "Superman is not needed. Supergirl is the better hero." That's what they did with the season 2 finale, that's what they established. I again remind of the quote from Supergirl regarding her first fight with Reign: "I can beat Superman whenever I need to, I can beat her."

 

[heatvision38]

Literally everything I wrote was in reference to that finale, NOT his first appearance. So yes, being the source of strength his cousin needed him to be, his lack of ego in being so proud of her that she beat him, providing the information about the Dakkam-Ur to use against Rhea, giving her guidance and teaching her moves before the fight, and providing words of encouragement when she was at her lowest emotional point in their last scene...that was all Superman. Not to mention the side characters were still fawning over him as they always do. And he wiped the floor with any Daxamites who faced him and casually took out 3 of their warships in 3-seconds like it was nothing. If you want to overlook all that because they had Supergirl beat him in a fight (on HER show) and had him acknowledge it with pride, well, that's your prerogative.

As for giving her villains to him, well, it makes more sense to me than giving Batman's storylines to Green Arrow. At least Supergirl's in Superman's family and shares those villains with him in the comics, and we aren't gonna be seeing Supes deal with most of those characters in a Superman show or movie anytime soon, so why not utilize them. And we know Supes in that show has had previous adventures with Batman, fought General Zod and Lex Luthor on multiple occasions, fought Mongul on Warworld, Reactron, Lobo, and likely countless others to have earned the reputation he has on that show. Just because Kara's gotten some of his smaller-scale villains first doesn't mean he's just been sitting around.

And Supergirl had a co-headlining title with the Legion in recent years in comics, so tying their origins more to her (especially with her romantic connection to Mon-El in the show), made a certain kind of sense in this case, imo. And they explained the lack of Superman as inspiration because Earth's history was lost to them. So it's not like they just found Supergirl more inspiring or something. Mon-El founded them and Kara was HIS inspiration because he loved her. Again, it's not like there's a Superman show out there that this is stealing from. This is a Supergirl-centric show, so it's only natural that elements of the established Super-verse have become more Supergirl-centric within it. Superman is still held in VERY high regard on the show, so they obviously respect him. Just look at the story Jimmy Olsen told about he first time he encountered Superman, and what he meant to him.

Supergirl having adventures with the Legion is very different than being the inspiration for it. If Supergirl is the inspiration 1,000 years from now, then what is Superman? Is he remembered? Is he forgotten? As for Arrow, true, he has used a few of Batman's villains, but they have also used many of his own enemies. Other than Ra's, I don't recall a major Batman villain they used. Prometheus debuted in JL and was created by Morrison, and he also faced Green Arrow in the comics. Merlyn is an GA villain. Damian Darkh isn't particular to one hero that I can recall. Richard Dragon, also, I don't recall him being specifically a Batman villain. He was more of a neutral character throughout his history in the comics. They have taken a lot of inspiration from Batman, no question. But the difference is, in this world, Batman, at least as we know it, does not exist. It would be more akin to a Nightwing show that used Hush and bunch of other Batman-centric characters who had not existed prior to them facing Nightwing, making you wonder who Batman ever fought.

As for the S2 finale, I don't dispute that Superman didn't do nice things, that he was written entirely poorly. What I am saying is that that is overshadowed by how they treated him with respect to propping up Kara by using him to show she is the most powerful hero on the planet then and going forward. Given the show's history of hamfisting storylines to fit an agenda, it just makes it all the worse. I could be more fine with how they treated Superman if they weren't so obvious with their social issues approach. Or how they treated gender, etc, etc. Or how they have taken from so much of Superman's mythos. But I can't ignore all of these things. They add up.

 

[heatvision38]

So I guess the plan is to ignore literally everything about that episode but a couple lines and a single fight scene, and to also talk about said lines out of context.

I could argue you are doing the same. It's just a question of what level of importance you want to put on the things I am mentioning. It doesn't mean much to you. It does to me.

I also would like you to answer my question: Why do you think they brought in Superman to the show?

 

[KillerMcQueen]

Maybe the don't want to portray their own title character as second rate, as the backup because Superman is weakened? Maybe, just maybe that's why they went that route with why Kara had to fight Rhea? That word of encouragement he gave her also happens to show how deeply he cares about Lois, it highlights his humanity and gives some very human fallibility to his character, which is not an inherently bad thing. The message they want to give isn't that "Superman is not needed", the message is that Supergirl can stand on her own, do they go overboard at times? Yes, but that's not enough for me to condemn his portrayal on the show as a whole, at worst it's a nitpick.

And they brought Superman in because they clearly love the character, and knew it would be a lot of fun for the viewers, that and he's an important part of her life, they were always going to show him at some point. It was not just so they could put him down to prop Kara up, because that is not what they did.

 

[flickchick85]

Taking my response to the Supergirl board because this has officially derailed the Henry Cavill thread.

Suffice it to say, Greenlite, if you ever want to watch it for yourself, be prepared for a mega-dose of cheese, lol. But their portrayal of Superman has its merits.

 

[heatvision38]

It says he believes he could never sacrifice Lois. Which sounds like something Superman would say to me. Kara's generally the more pragmatic one in the comics due to her Kryptonian upbringing (and even on the show, she was raised there for 13 years), so that was entirely in character to me.

By itself, I think I would have been fine with that part of the conversation. But adding in that they had Superman lose the fight to her made it worse. And not just losing, but taking away the option that he could have been depowered when that option was specifically brought up in the Fortress only to be shut down when Clark said he gave it his all. Why even do that? What's the purpose of that? What is it the show writers are trying to achieve? You've acknowledged that they can be heavy handed with their themes, that they lack subtlety with social issues. What I am saying is that the same group that that either lacks the self-awareness to not be so heavy-handed, or simply does not care, is also the same group that would use Superman to make Supergirl look good at the expense of Superman. There is very little subtlety with this writing team.

 

[heatvision38]

Maybe the don't want to portray their own title character as second rate, as the backup because Superman is weakened? Maybe, just maybe that's why they went that route with why Kara had to fight Rhea? That word of encouragement he gave her also happens to show how deeply he cares about Lois, it highlights his humanity and gives some very human fallibility to his character, which is not an inherently bad thing. The message they want to give isn't that "Superman is not needed", the message is that Supergirl can stand on her own, do they go overboard at times? Yes, but that's not enough for me to condemn his portrayal on the show as a whole, at worst it's a nitpick.

And they brought Superman in because they clearly love the character, and knew it would be a lot of fun for the viewers, that and he's an important part of her life, they were always going to show him at some point. It was not just so they could put him down to prop Kara up, because that is not what they did.

It's one thing to have Kara second to just some other character, but this is Superman, a far more experienced Superman. Again, lazy writing just to serve a function.

Taking my response to the Supergirl board because this has officially derailed the Henry Cavill thread.

You're right.

 

[BH/HHH]

Tyler Hoechlin is Superman thread

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=36917355#post36917355

 

[Greenlite]

Taking my response to the Supergirl board because this has officially derailed the Henry Cavill thread.

Suffice it to say, Greenlite, if you ever want to watch it for yourself, be prepared for a mega-dose of cheese, lol. But their portrayal of Superman has its merits.

Cheers

 

[BH/HHH]

Taking my response to the Supergirl board because this has officially derailed the Henry Cavill thread.

Suffice it to say, Greenlite, if you ever want to watch it for yourself, be prepared for a mega-dose of cheese, lol. But their portrayal of Superman has its merits.

Having only just read all this this morning I have responded in that thread. I apologise about the length of my post.

Don’t know if others want to read it but I have gone into detail on what I love about Hoechlin’s Superman but what I don’t like about the shows treatment of the character on the whole.

 

[Superchan]

This thread. Unnecessary doom and gloom, if Cavill gets replaced, then he is also responsible for failed negotiations, maybe he wants to move on.. thing is, we don't know right now.

As for Superman, they will re-cast and make another movie, it may take some time but WB are not going to sit on the property for long time, remember, they have "Special Arrangement with the Jerry Siegel Family".

Siegel Estate have a part of Superman rights with them, as per the deal, WB have to pay them or make a Superman movie after few years (I don't know exactly how many years gap is permitted between two Superman movies.)

So, we will get a Superman movie, only question is Cavill's involvement, but that's also upto Cavill himself..

You sure about this? I thought the who thing was settled in 2013 and the rights are now completely in the hands of WB, but ofcourse they still have to pay the Siegel family royalties and the such.

 

[Micromind]

Sure about what ? They (WB) won the legal rights case, WB own the rights to Superman except what was in Action Comics #1. For that, WB settled with matter with Joe Shuster Estate. But Jerry Siegel family wanted a separate arrangement, so WB had to agree with their terms (They have half of the rights to Action Comics #1 and characters in that.), which is why that term appears in everything related to Superman.


According to rumor at that time, it was reported that WB had to pay them some amount if they failed to make a Superman movie after every "n" number of years. (Don't know how many years.) You are free to do some research in this matter.

 

[Superchan]

Sure about what ? They (WB) won the legal rights case, WB own the rights to Superman except what was in Action Comics #1. For that, WB settled with matter with Joe Shuster Estate. But Jerry Siegel family wanted a separate arrangement, so WB had to agree with their terms (They have half of the rights to Action Comics #1 and characters in that.), which is why that term appears in everything related to Superman.


According to rumor at that time, it was reported that WB had to pay them some amount if they failed to make a Superman movie after every "n" number of years. (Don't know how many years.) You are free to do some research in this matter.

Sure about the fact that a superman has to be made every 8 yrs or so otherwise WB has to pay the siegels large sums of money?
I thought that stipulation is no more and WB pays the family a percentage of any profit made from a superman project.

 

[Micromind]

The issue was in regards to ownership rights and as I have said, the part of rights to what was published in Action Comics #1 rests with Seigel's family. WB has made some separate "arrangement with the family".

I thought that stipulation is no more and WB pays the family a percentage of any profit made from a superman project.

That stipulation was given by Court when attorney Toberoff was fighting the case on behalf of Seigel and Shuster families. After the case was over, they settled the remaining matter of rights usage them with some conditions, which could have been the source of such rumors.

 

[BH/HHH]

Sure about the fact that a superman has to be made every 8 yrs or so otherwise WB has to pay the siegels large sums of money?
I thought that stipulation is no more and WB pays the family a percentage of any profit made from a superman project.

I think that’s correct and apparently Justice League doesn’t count towards that quota. So the last Superman movie that would effect that deal is BvS which was released in 2016 so by this logic they should have to have a Superman film in production by 2024.

 

[Greenlite]

Only 6 more years to go folks!

 

[Micromind]

They can make a movie before that, if they want to.

 

[_Superman_]

The issue was in regards to ownership rights and as I have said, the part of rights to what was published in Action Comics #1 rests with Seigel's family. WB has made some separate "arrangement with the family".

That stipulation was given by Court when attorney Toberoff was fighting the case on behalf of Seigel and Shuster families. After the case was over, they settled the remaining matter of rights usage them with some conditions, which could have been the source of such rumors.

DC owns half the rights to everything from Action Comics #1 because they brought the Shuster's family half back in the 90's. So really the judge told them to work things out because DC also produced proof that they owned the Seigel's half as well. So to end the whole lawsuit they came do an agreement with the Seigel family but in reality the Seigel family was also stuck between a rock and a hard place anyways with DC owning Shuster's half.