BvS Henry Cavill IS Superman - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[Bren]

If I can't take someone to task for actually liking a morose, insecure doubtful Superman (and I shouldn't try), don't take me to task for not liking it.

 

[herolee10]

Assembling a team doesn't mean you can lead them or keep them together.

The thing is though, if Superman were to return midway into the film, then technically speaking, then why would he even be considered for the leadership in the first place? Superman will likely have no idea on who any of these individuals are, let alone what they're all capable of at first, whereas Batman would gotten to known them and become familiarized with them during Superman's absence, so it's kind of makes Batman the most obvious choice to become field/team leader in this incarnation.

So Superman isn't allowed any doubts or mistakes?

I don't think that's the case that some are trying to say. I think people just want to see more moments where Superman can enjoy being Superman, and where he's more of a vocal character.

 

[Brother Jack]

Superman was barely a character in this movie. More of a blank slate for the other characters to project their concerns onto. I never felt like I was getting into the character, like I understood and empathized with him. So when [blackout]he dies[/blackout] I couldn't feel anything. I get that Superman is a hard character to do well but I really feel like Snyder and Goyer don't know what to do with him or, maybe, just don't like him.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The psycho analyzing of film creators is... It's bit much, these conclusions people are making.

 

[Doc Samson]

Please no, don't throw that into the universe

these are comic book movies, he has to come back

Not sure how they'd explain away Clark Kent resurrecting though. And honestly, how Cavill plays him, they're one in the same anyway (and I feel that's by design by the way, not Cavill's inability to act or any deficiency with the script). I don't feel like I'd be missing out on a whole lot, I certainly didn't feel that way about MoS.

 

[sportjames23]

The psycho analyzing of film creators is... It's bit much, these conclusions people are making.

It's amazing, isn't it?

And it's one thing to think this movie isn't an all time great, but a 28% RT score? That **** is ridiculous.

 

[UltraSuperGuy]

Christopher Reeve's Superman is what made me fall in love with the character.

Snyder's version of Superman can and should stay dead for all I care. Raised by a pair of nihilistic, morose pricks, it's no wonder that this Superman viewed saving people as a grim and joyless chore, dragging an ocean liner like Atlas forced to keep the world on his shoulders. Couldn't care less about this Superman since he couldn't care less about me or anyone other than Lois Lane.

Using his own words: Superman is dead. Bury him.

 

[Logan0327]

i kinda agree i did not like what they did with superman in this film

Spoiler

- not showing any empathy towards the citizens
- looked like he was forced to go to the senate
- has his mom saying you dont owe the world anything
- saying i dont care what people think to Lois
- instead of super-speeding at the African criminal and taking away his gun he spears the human through a brick wall

 

[Baneis8feettall]

It's amazing, isn't it?

And it's one thing to think this movie isn't an all time great, but a 28% RT score? That **** is ridiculous.

It dropped down to 28% now?!

 

[InspecktahDeck]

I honestly think Snyder doesn't "get" Superman. The most telling aspect of it was that he didn't let Clark save Pa in Man of Steel.

However, Henry Cavill acted his ass off given the dialogue and scenes given, and you can always tell what he's thinking or getting ready to do.

Superman smiled plenty in this film, he had his doubts, but he comes around fully at the end.

The most Superman moments of all, were

Spoiler

the montage of him saving people,

and finally,

Spoiler

"THIS is my world. YOU'RE my world."

 

[herolee10]

You know, ironically enough, I can't believe that the one thing that Snyder did get right about Superman was the portrayal of his relationship with Lois. I thought that their relationship was nearly flawless in this film.

If I'm not mistaken, it's the best portrayal/interpretation of their iconic relationship out of all of the films that have come out previously.

But I do agree that, at the end of the day, Snyder seems to be more focus in the concepts and imagery of these characters than he is in their canon personalities.

And my opinion on translating comic book material to any form of media has always been like this...unless the character was already a small-time/one-dimensional like character int he comics, try to stick to the interpretation that made people fall in love with that character in the first place.

I'm not saying that Snyder was completely wrong. I do believe that he "understands" Superman better than what Tim Burton had interpreted out of the character when he was trying to make his own superman film.

At the end of the day, Snyder is both his own worst enemy and best ally.

 

[Doc Samson]

I guess I don't understand why this version of Superman is so far-fetched for some of you? As far as film goes, this is the first time his presence wasn't met with universal appeal. Sure, in SR they tried the whole "world moved on" from him, but in reality it was just Lois. And he was already loved prior.

Here, we have a Superman who never got that love, who's been questioned from the beginning. Who had to save the world...by destroying the remnants of his world. He already had doubts, not because of his parents, but because of humans and his experience with how we act towards a withdrawn kid with weird episodes. Or a soft spoken guy in a bar trying to defend a woman against drunks. Or how he was beaten up for apparently no reason, disrespected by different bosses on different jobs, etc.

These situations are what color his perspective, so what does BvS do? Take it a step further, having his actions called into question yet again, then a Senate hearing divulging into an act of terrorism he's ultimately blamed for. How exactly is a still young Superman supposed to understand his purpose or not question what he's doing when this happens continuously?

 

[Tobias]

Superman was barely a character in this movie. More of a blank slate for the other characters to project their concerns onto. I never felt like I was getting into the character, like I understood and empathized with him. So when [blackout]he dies[/blackout] I couldn't feel anything. I get that Superman is a hard character to do well but I really feel like Snyder and Goyer don't know what to do with him or, maybe, just don't like him.

I absolutely agree about Superman not really being a character in the film. More a plot point. So the death had little emotional impact.

I felt that scene with Amy and Cavill was great but in the reviews I've read I have not seen a mention of it. That is revealing I think.

I disagree Superman is hard to write. To me that is an excuse. Every other superhero character can be written but Superman? That I don't buy.

 

[Golgo-13]

I'm not wellversed on Superman lore; how does he age? He seemed to age like a human between the time he was a baby til now. Does his aging slow down now that he's an adult…?

 

[kguillou]

Superman is not hard to write. Snyder and Cavill's Superman is 90% there. The template is there but they just need to take it all the way. With more dialogue and a little more confident charm injected into him, Cavill's Superman is the definitive modern Superman.

 

[sportjames23]

I'm not wellversed on Superman lore; how does he age? He seemed to age like a human between the time he was a baby til now. Does his aging slow down now that he's an adult…?

In general, in the comics, he's long-lived. Many times, he's shown to still look relatively young far into the future.

 

[Micromind]

I'm not wellversed on Superman lore; how does he age? He seemed to age like a human between the time he was a baby til now. Does his aging slow down now that he's an adult…?

Yeah, once becomes adult (reaches puberty), he ages very slowly.

 

[Tra-El]

Superman is not hard to write. Snyder and Cavill's Superman is 90% there. The template is there but they just need to take it all the way. With more dialogue and a little more confident charm injected into him, Cavill's Superman is the definitive modern Superman.

There's a longterm goal here with Snyder's Superman. From MoS to BvS, the character has already made HUGE strides in mindset that screams classic Superman, but the story and world he lives in doesn't allow him to be that yet. He wants to. You can tell he's breaking out, but there's still a wall that needs to be broken down. As a Superman fan, I'm completely fine with his arc as a character thus far. These are just TWO films that will be many, so to think this was the Superman they will conclude with, in my mind, is delusional. He's still going to shift and grow with visions of this DCEU. There's so much more to come. I'm willing to go along for the ride. I want to see Superman reach his classic persona. Unfortunately for some fans, they want it all and want it all now. I happen to like this route. He's underdeveloped in a good way IMO. I think we're on the right track.

 

[Tobias]

There's a longterm goal here with Snyder's Superman. From MoS to BvS, the character has already made HUGE strides in mindset that screams classic Superman, but the story and world he lives in doesn't allow him to be that yet. He wants to. You can tell he's breaking out, but there's still a wall that needs to be broken down. As a Superman fan, I'm completely fine with his arc as a character thus far. These are just TWO films that will be many, so to think this was the Superman they will conclude with, in my mind, is delusional. He's still going to shift and grow with visions of this DCEU. There's so much more to come. I'm willing to go along for the ride. I want to see Superman reach his classic persona. Unfortunately for some fans, they want it all and want it all now. I happen to like this route. He's underdeveloped in a good way IMO. I think we're on the right track.

Its hard seeing the growth from MOS to BvS. Thhis supposed character development I am not seeing.

In part its why to myself and to some others the death had no emotional gravitas. Totally out of place.

If JL1 is delayed several years because of issues around the BvS performance then this dark, brooding Superman becomes engrained in the GA. And the GA does not seem to like it.


Plus Snyder's JL comments indicate Superman may have a smallish role in JL1 and again be just a plot point as in BvS.

IMO MOS and BvS have more hurt than helped the franchise.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

I guess I don't understand why this version of Superman is so far-fetched for some of you? As far as film goes, this is the first time his presence wasn't met with universal appeal. Sure, in SR they tried the whole "world moved on" from him, but in reality it was just Lois. And he was already loved prior.

Here, we have a Superman who never got that love, who's been questioned from the beginning. Who had to save the world...by destroying the remnants of his world. He already had doubts, not because of his parents, but because of humans and his experience with how we act towards a withdrawn kid with weird episodes. Or a soft spoken guy in a bar trying to defend a woman against drunks. Or how he was beaten up for apparently no reason, disrespected by different bosses on different jobs, etc.

These situations are what color his perspective, so what does BvS do? Take it a step further, having his actions called into question yet again, then a Senate hearing divulging into an act of terrorism he's ultimately blamed for. How exactly is a still young Superman supposed to understand his purpose or not question what he's doing when this happens continuously?

Hit the nail on the head. But even if you're right it doesn't mean I have to like Supes not getting enough "personal" limelight in BvS. This movie unmistakably plays from Batman's perspective. And Superman is just getting beaten on by the news and the world at large. Now that he's sacrificed himself and saved the world again, I hope that it's bought him a lot of good will and that the people of Earth see him as one of us instead of "Superman: The Alien". Now he can be the Superman we all know and love as per Cavill's word.

 

[Tra-El]

Its hard seeing the growth from MOS to BvS. Thhis supposed character development I am not seeing.

I felt it immediately. What Cavill brought to the character and what he was allowed to do felt different. He was way more genuine and full of heart, especially with his scenes with Lois. That's the Superman beneath all of the crap he has to endure to what is thrown at him. When the story itself asks "Does there need to be a Superman?" then givin' the context of Man of Steel and BvS playing off of those same rules when it comes to world building, then yeah, he's not allowed to breakout yet, but the signs are there that Superman's story clearly isn't close to being over.

That's not to say this Superman is perfect. He clearly isn't and there are some issues, but that's the point in all of it right now. For those expecting the 100% nostalgia; classic Superman that is dear to them clearly doesn't get what a Universe is. It needs to continue to build.

I'll give Superman's arc the benefit of the doubt! I was happy and content from the continuation of Man of Steel. Are we there yet? NO, but I'm along for the ride and understand to tell the bigger story, we're not going to get it all in one film that's only a snippet of the larger story.

 

[lukebrodyg]

There's a longterm goal here with Snyder's Superman. From MoS to BvS, the character has already made HUGE strides in mindset that screams classic Superman, but the story and world he lives in doesn't allow him to be that yet. He wants to. You can tell he's breaking out, but there's still a wall that needs to be broken down. As a Superman fan, I'm completely fine with his arc as a character thus far. These are just TWO films that will be many, so to think this was the Superman they will conclude with, in my mind, is delusional. He's still going to shift and grow with visions of this DCEU. There's so much more to come. I'm willing to go along for the ride. I want to see Superman reach his classic persona. Unfortunately for some fans, they want it all and want it all now. I happen to like this route. He's underdeveloped in a good way IMO. I think we're on the right track.

Right on. This is precisely how I feel.

Having this Superman be peak Superman would be rushed and cheapened IMO.

 

[AnneFan]

In general, in the comics, he's long-lived. Many times, he's shown to still look relatively young far into the future.

Yeah. I like the tragedy of the character. That he's likely going to be the last person alive on Earth in a very far flung future, having seen everyone come and go. Lois and all his friends. Sad stuff, but it's likely going to happen to the guy. Supes is far more interesting than he's given credit for. It's not all smiles and giggles.

 

[Tra-El]

Right on. This is precisely how I feel.

Having this Superman be peak Superman would be rushed and cheapened IMO.

I'll raise you a right on with another right on, haha. In my eyes, if we would have got a Superman in BvS that was all of a sudden fully developed into the classic Superman with no more room to grow, then that would tell me the vision for the longterm Superman story has been givin' up on and that Superman's arc as a character and mindset would have been settled on.

I would have been upset about that. It would have gave me nothing to look forward to. Seeing that dirt rise shows me Superman's arc is FAR from over and I'm excited to see where this could be going. Some people act like they are all in on a wider Universe, but refuse to believe that there are rules into building the story. These aren't solo movies in one self contained universe. We must allow the story to develop and Superman shouldn't be the exception. If he was the exception? That means they have NO plans for him.

The ending told me otherwise. They have a plan with Supes. That's all I can ask for. Talk to me when the DCEU is over; not 2 films in.

 

[Tobias]

. That's not to say this Superman is perfect. He clearly isn't and there are some issues, but that's the point in all of it right now. For those expecting the 100% nostalgia; classic Superman that is dear to them clearly doesn't get what a Universe is. It needs to continue to build.

I'll give Superman's arc the benefit of the doubt! I was happy and content from the continuation of Man of Steel. Are we there yet? NO, but I'm along for the ride and understand to tell the bigger story, we're not going to get it all in one film that's only a snippet of the larger story.

IMO its a red herring to say we are not going back to a nostalgic Donner Superman. Of course we are not. The Donner Superman and the Snyder Superman are just two options on either extreme of a scale. The answer IMO is somewhere in between he two.

The arc theory is fine but how long do we have to wait to "get there" with Superman.

If Snyder's comments are true Superman may have a relatively small role in JL1. We may not get to see much of the finished Superman product in JL1. So still not there.

Cavill talked about not getting the Superman we love in BvS. I am sure he wants the chance to play that Superman as much as many of us do to see him play that Superman.,