BvS Henry Cavill IS Superman - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[Tra-El]

Sure. And it's not an abomination. But there are many things they could've had him say there that would not only be more interesting, but more in line with where the character should be after actively being superman for 2 years.

Good to hear from you Mrs.Kent, and all valid points

 

[MrsKent26]

But he (Supes) is being forced to do something that goes against what he truly believes. I think was he's saying at that point with Lois is that the world is corruptive, is corrupting him. He's tired of his good works not being enough.

But then Bats shows a change of heart, and WW comes to help him and he realizes that this world doesn't corrupt everyone. And that's why he can die for it.

He's having a crisis of faith and that's okay with me. His faith is later restored and it's temporary. I see no problem with this introspection. It just shouldn't last forever and be done by JL.

I guess it just comes down to my preference. I wanted a superman that is more sure of himself than that. I wanted the one who is incorruptible and knows it.

reads reads and reads this thread. and reads some more.

*thinks of what to add*



shirtless Clark huzzah!!

I was trying to be a lady and not mention that, but...damn, son! Hottest Clark...ever.

I loved how domesticated he was too. Cooking for Lois and all that. Cute.

 

[Saint]

But it is. His central struggle, his personal struggle, is about whether to live his life with Lois or do his duty to the world.

That's one of his struggles, yes, but not the one I'm focusing on. I'm talking about question of whether it's possible to be a hero.

 

[Rapunzel]

That's one of his struggles, yes, but not the one I'm focusing on. I'm talking about question of whether it's possible to be a hero.

Dude.... that question is answered. Anyone good can be a hero, in their own way. If they believe and make that choice.

 

[MrsKent26]

Good to hear from you Mrs.Kent, and all valid points

Thanks. Sorry that it seems I'm so negative, but I really did like a lot about the movie. I just felt superman's characterization was a bit weak.

 

[The Guard]

That was never going to be resolved in a single film. There's no right answer to that conflict. And...that angle is exolored through both Batman and Superman. It's not about just being a hero. It's about inspiring others to join us in doing so.

 

[Rapunzel]

I agree Mrs. K, that the movie could have provided a stronger characterization for Supes, but I'm okay with what I got...

To me, it's no worse a characterization than Superman Returns, Superman 2, or Superman 4. In fact, I think it's miles better.

 

[MrsKent26]

^ It is better than those, but that's not hard to do, lol.

 

[Tra-El]

Superman's character is under heavy scrutiny in this film. It's been two years and people are still in fear of him. Maybe it's because of guys like Lex Luthor and our government undercover to frame Superman to the public. Superman is trying to be the Superman we want him to be, but we're not allowing him. There's still too much fear and manipulative things happening in this world.

I have no doubts Supes is goin to be his classic self and I didn't expect him to be in this. No way, there's way too much inner struggle. Even the question of "If your child could be saved by Superman , do we really want him to? Must there be a Superman?"

Those things are scathing to him, but he showed enough of an arc to where he's feeling more and more like Superman to me. I can't wait until we get there too and I'm excited to see how they're goin going to do it.

If this self loathing stuff is STILL going on after JL1? Consider me in the same boat. It shouldn't last too much longer or then I'd start to lose it.

BvS's Superman arc was fine by me. I quite enjoyed it, but it's becoming about time we should see classic elements that need to start appearing. Even Terrio said MOS-JL1 is one saga. I have the faith.

 

[Saint]

That was never going to be resolved in a single film. There's no right answer to that conflict. And...that angle is exolored through both Batman and Superman. It's not about just being a hero. It's about inspiring others to join us in doing so.

I don't need it to be tied up with a nice bow on top, I need it to be addressed and articulated in a way that is satisfying and compelling.

Instead, Superman has a pretty poignant discussion with his Ghost Dad about how the right thing to do isn't always obvious, and trying to do the right thing can have consequences--but in the third act, the right thing to do is obvious (punch up the big grey monster) and has no consequences.

Perhaps it would have been different if Batman and Superman's opposing viewpoints ultimately gelled in some meaningful way to allow them to have a more complete understanding of justice, but that didn't really happen either.

 

[Rapunzel]

I concur, Tra-El. A lot of things are riding on JL and how Supes is when he comes back. MoS had his struggle with the world. BvS had the world's struggle with him. Any more struggling and it's gonna weigh the character down in an too much.

 

[Rapunzel]

Saint- but the consequence was his life. Any other solution/consequence just keeps things muddy for him.

 

[Tra-El]

Thanks. Sorry that it seems I'm so negative, but I really did like a lot about the movie. I just felt superman's characterization was a bit weak.

Please don't apologize Mrs.Kent What you say is NOT wrong. Hell, I agree in some degree and trust me when I say that I don't think this is the best they can do. Not by a long shot. It's flawed, but I forgive it and have welcomed the story and his representation. My heart felt those strings being softy played and I finally felt the kind of satisfaction I craved. Not because it was perfect, but because I believe we're on the right track. There's so much more to come and it was a proper launching pad.

 

[The Guard]

I don't need it to be tied up with a nice bow on top, I need it to be addressed and articulated in a way that is satisfying and compelling.

Instead, Superman has a pretty poignant discussion with his Ghost Dad about how the right thing to do isn't always obvious, and trying to do the right thing can have consequences--but in the third act, the right thing to do is obvious (punch up the big grey monster) and has no consequences.

Perhaps it would have been different if Batman and Superman's opposing viewpoints ultimately gelled in some meaningful way to allow them to have a more complete understanding of justice, but that didn't really happen either.

I think the talk with his dad was more about that there's a cost to doing what's right. At the end of the film, he realizes and accepts this in grand fashion.

 

[Tra-El]

I think the talk with his dad was more about that there's a cost to doing what's right. At the end of the film, he realizes and accepts this in grand fashion.

Yep. Jonathan ' s story took him in the right place. He and his dad worked on the farm for hours to the point of exhaustion to save the farm. It worked until the next morning where the stream killed everything he worked for. Though he did good, it was inevitable that bad things happen to good people or doing the right thing. He had nightmares and found love again with Martha. She taught him how to love again regardless of all the bad things that happened. He was telling Clark to find what truly makes him happy. That was Lois. That's why he came back. Lois is Superman's true happiness.

 

[MrsKent26]

Please don't apologize Mrs.Kent What you say is NOT wrong. Hell, I agree in some degree and trust me when I say that I don't think this is the best they can do. Not by a long shot. It's flawed, but I forgive it and have welcomed the story and his representation. My heart felt those strings being softy played and I finally felt the kind of satisfaction I craved. Not because it was perfect, but because I believe we're on the right track. There's so much more to come and it was a proper launching pad.

I can agree with that. I don't hate what was done, but had hoped for something more. I think we just needed a touch of this:

Just a little bit of peace and confidence for superman amongst all the crap he takes from Lex and Co.

 

[Steelsheen]

I guess it just comes down to my preference. I wanted a superman that is more sure of himself than that. I wanted the one who is incorruptible and knows it.

he'll get there. filmmakers just need to add more pathos because it makes for better storytelling. or audience acceptance (becoz h8terz). but yeah he'll get there soon enough.

i just want to make sure that they dont pull an XMen and shaft Supes for Bats as leader of the Justice League. i mean look they already killed him and gave the hunting gathering job to Bats so.... *eyes WB and Affleck suspiciously*

I was trying to be a lady and not mention that, but...damn, son! Hottest Clark...ever.

I loved how domesticated he was too. Cooking for Lois and all that. Cute.

i can only say "Henry did a splendid job as Supes" so many times. also many of the points i wanted to say have been discussed here already so... lets appreciate those long gym hours and cringeworthy diet Henry has been putting up with eh? t:

for some reason i wasnt really too surprised that he does the domestics in that partnership with Lois. i mean other than the fact that he's faster in everything, Lois doesnt really strike me as the other half that will cook and clean. argue with government staff on income tax and stuff? yeah thats her turf t:

 

[The Guard]

Yep. Jonathan ' s story took him in the right place. He and his dad worked on the farm for hours to the point of exhaustion to save the farm. It worked until the next morning where the stream killed everything he worked for. Though he did good, it was inevitable that bad things happen to good people or doing the right thing. He had nightmares and found love again with Martha. She taught him how to love again regardless of all the bad things that happened. He was telling Clark to find what truly makes him happy. That was Lois. That's why he came back. Lois is Superman's true happiness.

It's also related to him as a Christ Figure. Turn the other cheek and all that.

 

[Tra-El]

I can agree with that. I don't hate what was done, but had hoped for something more. I think we just needed a touch of this:

Just a little bit of peace and confidence for superman amongst all the crap he takes from Lex and Co.

I agree. It would be a downright travesty if this never happens. It really would. I really hope Snyder and company are going to allow more happier things in the coming DCEU. The mood was appropriate in MoS and BvS. Though I like the grounded and more serious approach, I hope they can work towards a much more happier viewing experience and not have the stories be so sorrow. I love that now, but eventually, if we can't move on from that, especially Superman, then yeah, this vision will FAIL. I just think Snyder never worked in a shared universe. His movies were all contained, so this is his chance to give a bigger picture and show us that he can give us something lighter and not so angsty. 2 movies aren't going to convince me this is all it will ever be. I'm trusting in their plan and I'm trusting in Superman in this process.

 

[Saint]

I think the talk with his dad was more about that there's a cost to doing what's right.

At the end of the film, he realizes and accepts this in grand fashion.

I can see that we're definitely focusing on different messages in Jonathan's story, which is interesting and speaks to why I think the story was one of the few really effective Superman moments in the film. One side of it is that Jonathan is telling a story where he had to choose (even if he wasn't aware he was making the choice) between saving his farm at the cost of another, or sacrificing his farm for the sake of someone else's. Superman's actions at the end of the film are certainly his answer to this part of the story, sacrificing his life with Lois for the sake of the world.

However, the side of the story that I focused on was the challenge of understanding the right thing to do in the context of the larger world, and the consequences of one's actions within it. That's the conflict that spoke to me most in the film so it makes sense that it's what I would focus on in Ghost Dad's story. That's the facet of this conflict that "punch the big grey monster to save the world" was not equipped to articulate.

I think that's my biggest problem with the film (well, maybe second to Murderman). I like the themes of the film and the questions it's trying to address. I'm just not satisfied with the way it handles those themes, and I think it falls short of saying something meaningful about them.

 

[Rapunzel]

I'm not liking what Snyder told EW....it sounds like Supes could indeed be missing for large chunks of JL...awful decision.

 

[Tra-El]

It's also related to him as a Christ Figure. Turn the other cheek and all that.

That powerful balcony scene had that as well. That scene was important and one of my favorites in the film.

 

[Vaibow]

Just the thought of another 2 year wait - with possible wasted screen time explaining the ending of B v S until we see the perfect superman, just depresses me. Honestly, would a superman cameo for SS or an after credits scene for WW be too much of an ask?

 

[The Guard]

I can see that we're definitely focusing on different messages in Jonathan's story, which is interesting and speaks to why I think the story was one of the few really effective Superman moments in the film. One side of it is that Jonathan is telling a story where he had to choose (even if he wasn't aware he was making the choice) between saving his farm at the cost of another, or sacrificing his farm for the sake of someone else's. Superman's actions at the end of the film are certainly his answer to this part of the story, sacrificing his life with Lois for the sake of the world.

However, the side of the story that I focused on was the challenge of understanding the right thing to do in the context of the larger world, and the consequences of one's actions within it. That's the conflict that spoke to me most in the film so it makes sense that it's what I would focus on in Ghost Dad's story. That's the facet of this conflict that "punch the big grey monster to save the world" was not equipped to articulate.

I think that's my biggest problem with the film (well, maybe second to Murderman). I like the themes of the film and the questions it's trying to address. I'm just not satisfied with the way it handles those themes, and I think it falls short of saying something meaningful about them.

And again, that's been their major theme for this entire universe. I don't think it was ever going to be resolved within this film. It's an extension of Jonathan's message to him about having to make a choice about how to relate to the world. Man VS God is the entire through line.

 

[Rapunzel]

Just the thought of another 2 year wait - with possible wasted screen time explaining the ending of B v S until we see the perfect superman, just depresses me. Honestly, would a superman cameo for SS or an after credits scene for WW be too much of an ask?

Apparently, from what Snyder said to EW, the JL will be existing without Supes, and looking to bring him back. So post credit return seems unlikely.