BvS Henry Cavill IS Superman - - - - - - - - - - - Part 25

[kalhawj]

My point is, if I know for certain that there're more Superman movie down the road I'd be happy with where we stand right now. I love his character arc in BvS and I know it could lead to something amazing and epic if they handle his return right. Instead the only promise I got from Snyder is another Bat-centric movie.

Knowing Cavill's contract is up after JL1 just adds more uncertainty to Superman's future.

And a potentiality an Injustice right with Superman possibly the villain. I sure hope it doesn't happen.

 

[Legendver2]

My point is, if I know for certain that there're more Superman movie down the road I'd be happy with where we stand right now. I love his character arc in BvS and I know it could lead to something amazing and epic if they handle his return right. Instead the only promise I got from Snyder is another Bat-centric movie.

Knowing Cavill's contract is up after JL1 just adds more uncertainty to Superman's future.

That's a scary thought. Is Cavill gonna be in JL2?

 

[Greeneyes]

If you can't debate it like an adult and add anything of substance, then yes you would be best getting out.

Thanks for living up to what I said about nutters lazily throwing the trademark "You just want the Donner Superman" line around.

Wow. I was being sarcastic you are just nasty and angry. I'm not even going to reply to you.

MODERATORS please take a look at calling members 'nutters'

 

[Man_of_Tomorrow]

I think you watched a different movie to me T Gunk.

No he's right. The only reason for superman, after having saved the WORLD once already while sacrificing the remnants of his home planet in the process, would still doubt his place in the world is because it helps Batman develop. Batmans reason to want to kill him is already weak, but a superman that's a light in the world? It would be completely illogical.

 

[Man_of_Tomorrow]

Plus, cool fight scene bro, having superman going around like a ragdoll.

 

[HELLilac]

And a potentiality an Injustice right with Superman possibly the villain. I sure hope it doesn't happen.

Exactly. Supes returning as the evil Supes would undo the character arc he had in BvS. The idea is so moronic only a moron would go ahead with that gimmick. Unfortunately we can only wait and see if Zack Snyder isn't one.

That's a scary thought. Is Cavill gonna be in JL2?

I wish I could have the answer. They wouldn't dare to cut Superman off from JL, surely....

 

[BH/HHH]

Wow. I was being sarcastic you are just nasty and angry. I'm not even going to reply to you.

MODERATORS please take a look at calling members 'nutters'

Just ignore him Greeneyes all does is repeat that's not Superman. Not worth your time.

 

[TheTarkKnight]

Doomsday dying at the end of the movie does not mean he will not be back. Superman will be back, why wouldn't Doomsday be back? Since his biology allows him to be indestructible and cannot be killed the same way twice, who says he will not be in another DCEU movie?

 

[DeadPresident]

My point is, if I know for certain that there're more Superman movie down the road I'd be happy with where we stand right now. I love his character arc in BvS and I know it could lead to something amazing and epic if they handle his return right. Instead the only promise I got from Snyder is another Bat-centric movie.

Knowing Cavill's contract is up after JL1 just adds more uncertainty to Superman's future.

What's the source for his contract being up after JL1?

 

[Tony Gunk]

Wow. I was being sarcastic you are just nasty and angry. I'm not even going to reply to you.

MODERATORS please take a look at calling members 'nutters'

How unbelievably petty. Take a swipe at me, claim sarcasm then beg the moderators to take action on me for use of a harmless term. It's sad the way those who issues with the film have to tip toe around to avoid this nonsense

I'll stick you on ignore and you can do likewise, that'll save the hassle

 

[Greeneyes]

Just ignore him Greeneyes all does is repeat that's not Superman. Not worth your time.

Thanks for the heads-up BH I should know better shouldn't I. Just when I thought I was out...

 

[kalhawj]

Rightnow, Zack has a lot to prove. I hope he prove my doubts are wrong. If he really likes the injustice route he can save that for future JL movie where we get into the Mutiverse situation where our heros goes to save a world here Superman is bad. For now I just want a Superman to be proud off and a fun assemble movie.

 

[The Guard]

How did it tear him down? By putting his back to the wall and making him struggle early in his career like the last one?

Spoiler

Lex gives him an ultimatum and Batman provokes him. He finds a way out of Lex's "kill or be killed" scenario, brings out the good in Batman, and gives his life to save a world that fears him. He proved he was a hero to Lex, Batman, and the world and he didn't need to operate on anyone else's rules. He was finally sure of himself when he told Lois "THIS is my world. YOU'RE my world." He was portrayed as a hero through and through, and much more confident than he was in the previous film. I'm now more sure he's going to be the hero he's grown to be in the comics in the next film.

This. This film may not be entirely uplifting, and it doesn't show enough of what's "Right" about Superman, but it's not getting Superman wrong, either. Not by a long shot.

 

[The Guard]

I can’t agree that we didn’t see a three dimensional Clark/Superman in this film.

We saw a range of emotions from Clark and Superman, even if we didn't see a balanced range.

We saw his joy, in being with Lois, and his desire to live a normal life. We saw his social work aspect as Clark, when he wanted to stand up for the poor and persecuted and them a voice. We saw the burden that being Superman causes, and his concerns over being seen as a God, and as a meddler.

And we ultimately, if imperfectly, saw all this reconciled at the end of the movie. He decides he CAN be what the world needs, and put aside his personal needs to do so.

That’s not “sexy”, it's not as "fun" as Superman smiling and saying it's going to be okay, but it is very inspiring as messages go.

This film definitely went darker than MAN OF STEEL. The Empire Strikes Back comparisons are not wrong, and not entirely unwelcome, to be honest.

Because these are the issues that established Superman has struggled and dealt with in modern comics. The statement has been made that Superman does not struggle and mope and brood...that is simply not true. Even back in the Golden Age, Superman had major concerns about his job. This "burden" of his mission is a key part of his character. They need to balance it out better is all.

A lot of people want Superman to have embraced his mission, but forget that this is the first film we’ve actually SEEN his mission in. He was barely Superman yet in MAN OF STEEL, and he was also reluctant to become Superman, to reveal himself to the world.

The issues he faced were those involved in becoming Superman. Here, the issues dealt with are those associated with being Superman.

I suspect in the next outing, we’re going to see the issues associated with him being a figure of inspiration, and a leader, which is a natural fit for his evolution into the leader of the Justice League and an inspiration for other heroes.

 

[kguillou]

I'll fully admit, I was one of the people hoping to see a more...charming, more confident Superman in this movie. Now, I was one of the champions of Man of Steel and loved his characterization there and thought it was a good launch pad for this character, but I did want to see more levity and charm from this character in BVS.

At first, I was letdown that that was not what we got. But after thinking about it, I actually think I like the road Snyder took and see where he is going with this. This is a guy with a good heart and wants to do the right but he is still unsure of himself and unsure of his purpose in life. I think Snyder's intent is to portray Superman as a guy who is a conflicted hero. He wants to do the right thing but it vilified for it and sees the tragedy that is caused around him and it makes him unsure if what he is doing is causing more harm that good. I think that's a beautiful theme to explore and it makes Superman vulnerable and relatable.

The REAL test, however, will be what Snyder does with Superman after he comes out of the grave. Does he become to THE SUPERMAN we all know and love (which I am confident will happen) or does Snyder continue to take him down a dark path ( evil Superman). I have to believe the former will happen, I remember Snyder himself talking about how Superman will be the chairman of the Justice League and for that to happen he has to be the beacon that Batman, WW, flash, Aquaman and Cyborg want to follow.

 

[The Shape]

How did it tear him down? By putting his back to the wall and making him struggle early in his career like the last one?

Spoiler

Lex gives him an ultimatum and Batman provokes him. He finds a way out of Lex's "kill or be killed" scenario, brings out the good in Batman, and gives his life to save a world that fears him. He proved he was a hero to Lex, Batman, and the world and he didn't need to operate on anyone else's rules. He was finally sure of himself when he told Lois "THIS is my world. YOU'RE my world." He was portrayed as a hero through and through, and much more confident than he was in the previous film. I'm now more sure he's going to be the hero he's grown to be in the comics in the next film.

Yup. I find the claims of "Snyder doesn't understand Superman", "Snyder and WB hate Superman", and "Snyder/WB ruined the Superman character" to be pretty absurd.

It seems to me that a lot of people are simply uncomfortable with the fact that this Superman is not only a more stoic (a person who can endure pain or hardship without showing their feelings or complaining) and contemplative version of the character, but also one that was sometimes internally conflicted and affected by the world around him, not always completely confident in himself and his actions, not always sure of what the "right" thing to do is, etc.

Personally, I found it to be an interesting take on Superman that was still true to the character but also maybe a bit more relatable in that this is how most of us would feel/act if we had the same level of God-like powers and responsibility that he had. He struggled with the fact that some of his actions had unintended consequences, even when he was only trying to help. He had doubts about his place as the world's savior because he couldn't save everyone always. He was hurt by the fact that Superman had become such a figure of controversy, with many people outright rejecting him and saying it wasn't his place to intervene in certain situations, despite the fact that he had nothing but good intentions. He wondered whether the idea of a "Superman" was even something that could be real, or was simply an unattainable ideal that could never truly be reached.

Superman really went through a crucible in this film, as he was taking fire from all angles. And even though he may have stumbled along the way through all of the trials and tribulations that were coming at him, I think the most important thing is how he came out of it all -- embracing his humanity and giving everything he had to save the world and people he loved.

 

[kalhawj]

Man this music and Cavil sold this scene perfectly. Even listening to it now bring tears to my eyes. A Hero after all that he went through still made the ultimate sacrifice to save the people he loves and the world they live in. After seeing the struggle he went through saving the world and people still doubts and fear him do you think if you were in Superman's shoe would you bother saving it?. Much respect to this Superman.

I'm confident that going forward we will see the confident superman we all know and love. Cavil, in my eyes you have surpassed Christopher Reeve as my favorite live action Superman. If JL do your character justice you would only stamp your legacy as one of the best live action Superman.

 

[InspecktahDeck]

Another reason I like this angle is that every origin story in films prior to this one has just been the hero getting a costume, skipping six months later to being an expert already, and then the next two films are just villain of the week movies with no interesting subplot like Clark's battle against public perception. Studios blew their load early like this with Spider-Man, Iron Man, and Batman.

 

[Rapunzel]

Reposting from the JL boards:

I don't think it's true Snyder doesn't understand Superman at all. The presentation might be wrapped in a somewhat unattractive package, but...

Cavill's Superman:

1. Is raised to fear his power's being noticed. Doesn't care and saves people anyway.

2. Gives himself willingly to the Government too save the Earth, even though he suspects Zod isn't going to keep his word anyway.

3. Destroys the world engine even though it could kill him or really hurt him.

4. Kills Zod at his own personal torment to save a family.

5. Saves Lois in Africa despite it being a move that might upset the government.

6. Continues to save folks, even in other countries, despite the fact folks are turning against him.

7. Attends the senate hearing even though he doesn't have to answer to anyone....and even his mom is telling him he owes the world nothing.

8. Feels so awful about possibly missing the wheelchair bomb that he doubts his own abilities.

9. Nicely agrees to take Lex in without breaking him, though Lex just tried to kill someone, and was responsible for the Capitol bombing.

10. Cares more about his mother than dying and tries to save her with his possible last breath.

11. Keeps after DD even though a nuke is coming.

12. Helps Lois recover the spear though it might kill him.

13. Willingly dies to stop DD.

Not to mention:
14. Doesn't kill Batman even though Bats is practically asking for it.

15. Immediately forgives Bats for trying to kill and even trusts him to save his mom.

16. Saves Lex from DD, even though Lex created DD and would certainly deserve death.

17. Leaves behind Lois even though she is his world, even though he could have easily flown them both to safety; with the way the world is treating him, he would perfectly justified in letting humanity reap what it sowed in DD. He didn't need to sacrifice himself and cause Lois (and Ma) enormous pain for the benefit of the ungrateful public.

How is that not all Superman?? It's absolutely who Supes is.

Look beyond the smiles and colors and hearts of Donner's Supes (including SR). Sure, he seems like perfect Supes...but he turns back time for selfish reasons, gives up his powers for sex, beats up an innocent trucker, mindwipes Lois (twice), abandons earth for years and returns to stalk Lois and be a deadbeat dad. All things are NOT Superman. I know which one I think gets it more right, and that's Snyder.

I may wish Cav-el was more charming, and I agree, he HAS to get more charming. But charm isn't what makes Superman. It's the goodness. Snyder's Supes has that in spades, so it's not fair to say that Snyder doesn't get Supes at all.

He clearly gets what's most important

 

[Jumpman]

I can’t agree that we didn’t see a three dimensional Clark/Superman in this film.

We saw a range of emotions from Clark and Superman, even if we didn't see a balanced range.

We saw his joy, in being with Lois, and his desire to live a normal life. We saw his social work aspect as Clark, when he wanted to stand up for the poor and persecuted and them a voice. We saw the burden that being Superman causes, and his concerns over being seen as a God, and as a meddler.

And we ultimately, if imperfectly, saw all this reconciled at the end of the movie. He decides he CAN be what the world needs, and put aside his personal needs to do so.

That’s not “sexy”, it's not as "fun" as Superman smiling and saying it's going to be okay, but it is very inspiring as messages go.

This film definitely went darker than MAN OF STEEL. The Empire Strikes Back comparisons are not wrong, and not entirely unwelcome, to be honest.

Because these are the issues that established Superman has struggled and dealt with in modern comics. The statement has been made that Superman does not struggle and mope and brood...that is simply not true. Even back in the Golden Age, Superman had major concerns about his job. This "burden" of his mission is a key part of his character. They need to balance it out better is all.

A lot of people want Superman to have embraced his mission, but forget that this is the first film we’ve actually SEEN his mission in. He was barely Superman yet in MAN OF STEEL, and he was also reluctant to become Superman, to reveal himself to the world.

The issues he faced were those involved in becoming Superman. Here, the issues dealt with are those associated with being Superman.

I suspect in the next outing, we’re going to see the issues associated with him being a figure of inspiration, and a leader, which is a natural fit for his evolution into the leader of the Justice League and an inspiration for other heroes.

Someone, thank God, gets what Snyder's been doing for two films.

 

[batman44]

Re: Superman stand alone sequel

I wonder if there is any director out there that has a passion for Superman and love the tackle him on film.

 

[BH/HHH]

That's a scary thought. Is Cavill gonna be in JL2?

He'll sign for more, he may just want some guarantees to do so.

 

[The Shape]

Man this music and Cavil sold this scene perfectly. Even listening to it now bring tears to my eyes. A Hero after all that he went through still made the ultimate sacrifice to save the people he loves and the world they live in. After seeing the struggle he went through saving the world and people still doubts and fear him do you think if you were in Superman's shoe would you bother saving it?. Much respect to this Superman.

I'm confident that going forward we will see the confident superman we all know and love. Cavil, in my eyes you have surpassed Christopher Reeve as my favorite live action Superman. If JL do your character justice you would only stamp your legacy as one of the best live action Superman.

This was the highlight of the film's musical score, I think. So powerful.

Love the build-up to the moment at 1:46.

 

[Consona]

I cannot wait for Cavill's Superman in JL and MoS sequel (whenever that's going to happen..?)!

 

[InspecktahDeck]

I'm just surprised that people don't see that Clark and those closest to him were the beacon of hope and brightness in these movies. It stands out among the rest like a sore thumb, and in a good way - the movies aren't super realistic, but life is full of depressing, miserable things - and guess what, Superman's there to brighten things up.

For the people calling him mopey and brooding like Batman, there's one comparison that needs to be made. Both Superman and Batman get laid in this movie, and only one of them is shown having any fun with it.