BvS Henry Cavill IS Superman - - - - - - - - - - - Part 25

[NotSoLongAgo]

Like asking when spiderman talks as opposed to toby, or ironman as opposed to rd..tony. Sure I guess but it's not like we are dealing with a hulk/banner split here. That goes double for origins(for obvious reasons).
Just saying.

He asked, I delivered. Still for supposedly being a MOS sequel the actual Man of Steel has little to say.

 

[Andreth]

Well, I just watched it again, and I can say that the movie tortures Superman from beginning to end. Starting with Zod's fight, a terrorist threatens to blow his girlfriend's head, his boss gives him a hard time at work, mankind hates him, Bruce Wayne gives him a hostile conversation, Batman kicks his ass so hard that it makes him scream in agonizing pain, the media, He can't even have dinner without seeing a show that hates on Superman, the government (they throw a nuclear bomb at him & Doomsday not caring it could kill him too), Lex tortures his mom, Lex wants to kill him, Batman wants to kill him, doomsday wants to kill him (and actually does kill him) hell, even his fantasy about his father gives him pain.

The ONLY time he gets a little break is when he gets into that bathtub, for like 10 seconds.

Can any of you point a scene where he's not in pain/angst?

I'm surprised those tulips didn't come out of the paper bag and started beating him.

 

[jfurioso]

But, the fact that my favorite superman "movies" are really superman "moments" speaks to the idea that superman needs better writing, for my tastes anyways.

The movies, which I enjoyed on many different levels, do fail at giving us enough of the potential great Superman moments both in Cavill and in the very movie setups, shortchanging both us and Cavill.
For example, the opening Lois rescue. He could have smiled to reassure Lois. Just a small smile not of mirth because this is a serious situation in a serious movie, but that small hint of the warmth between them and the charm of the character.
Of course, in a 70s Superman movie he would have added a quip "Your work takes you interesting places, Ms. Lane" or something like that. I do not want that. A reassuring smile would have been enough.

I mentioned before how people I know preMOS openly told me they thought Superman was boring. Snyder is too worried about changing this. His selfconscious concern for making Superman a stoic "badass" is what creates this result.

I do hope we get at least ONE movie where Henry can be Superman in every way without restrains.

 

[jfurioso]

I thought those moments where superman was funneled though mild mannered clark while championing good journalism to a now cynical Perry white was 'great' writing and very much superman. Very much a window into characterization and getting to know who he is, what he believes in...
But all of this is simply not registered

I liked those moments, but remember that Clark is generally the understated side of Superman. By reversing the dynamic, we get a very detached and stoic Superman that while being a valid take on the character, is not really making the best use of the actor or the character, because when you think back on how Superman was, you think of SUPERMAN, not Clark, even if they are the same. So it is an unfortunate effect, relating even to the in-movie comment from Alfred that Bruce had achieved better effects as Bruce than as Batman. The problem is that we got a great looooong, exciting and quintessential Batman scene in this movie, where he basically has the best Batman action scene ever. In contrast, we see snippets of Superman doing quick rescues with some complicating elements, or see him fighting in a problematic setup, or in a less triumphant encounter. So while I liked things WITHIN the film, and they made sense IN the film, at the meta level I can say that Batman was better served by the portrayal than Superman. I mean... could the boat-tugging scene not have been shown in full daylight, with Superman straining but happy to be helping them? Little bits like this could have helped a lot the meta perception and general acceptance.

And I LOVED BvS and MOS, despite these flaws. But showing a bit more of the best side of Superman in the movie would have made everything even better, adding more poignancy to everything, because we would care more and worry more about how the world around this nice guy is really ganging up on him. Much like we care about the meta ganging up, too.

 

[jfurioso]

Yet in BvS, no one trusts him,

The movie does make clear that he is trusted. He has a statue. People are crowding to touch this hero.
The problem is that this is handled really quickly and rapidly subverted for the needs of the plot. The crowds approval becomes reverential and makes him uncomfortable. I wonder if the expanded edition will let this build up less abruptly.

What's sad is that Cavill really, REALLY seems to get this character far better than Snyder does. You can hear it in interviews when he talks about Superman.

I credit Cavill with a lot of subtle characterization.

The scene you mention where he states he does not care, I like that everything about him, the nervous tension he uses, tells us that he DOES care, and it hurts him.
He is frustrated and lashes out, not shrugs non-committally. And the rest of the movie is built on precisely how much he cares about it all and much it troubles him.

The general presentation does fall short often, but I think Cavill does his best to have it come through.

 

[Man_of_Tomorrow]

Can any of you point a scene where he's not in pain/angst?

when hes in the coffin

 

[Tony Gunk]

That's because it wasn't made today. Try doing a "Superman flies around the world and reverses time" and a "Superman goes to a pub with an unshaven face and drinks alcohol in his full costume" see how movie going audiences are going to go at it. And let's not get into Lois' screaming. Audiences' standards have been raised dramatically. So, apples and oranges.

What a total irrelevance. If Donner made a Superman film today he'd deliver, know why? He knows the character and he's a far superior film maker to Zack Snyder.

And why are you referencing Superman 3? That film sucked and everyone knew it in the 80's too. Reversing time was more forgivable than Superman snapping necks

 

[Tony Gunk]

As people have pointed out before, the donner movies aren't perfect, we the defenders understand that. The point is that the faults are looked past because those movies were actually fun, light hearted and Reeve fit the role like a glove. Had MOS and BVS been really fun they would have been received much more favorably.

Yeah it's all about the tone of the film too. Heck everyone's beloved Nolan saw Superman The Movie as the benchmark for epic comic book films.

 

[HELLilac]

I liked those moments, but remember that Clark is generally the understated side of Superman. By reversing the dynamic, we get a very detached and stoic Superman that while being a valid take on the character, is not really making the best use of the actor or the character, because when you think back on how Superman was, you think of SUPERMAN, not Clark, even if they are the same. So it is an unfortunate effect, relating even to the in-movie comment from Alfred that Bruce had achieved better effects as Bruce than as Batman. The problem is that we got a great looooong, exciting and quintessential Batman scene in this movie, where he basically has the best Batman action scene ever. In contrast, we see snippets of Superman doing quick rescues with some complicating elements, or see him fighting in a problematic setup, or in a less triumphant encounter. So while I liked things WITHIN the film, and they made sense IN the film, at the meta level I can say that Batman was better served by the portrayal than Superman. I mean... could the boat-tugging scene not have been shown in full daylight, with Superman straining but happy to be helping them? Little bits like this could have helped a lot the meta perception and general acceptance.

And I LOVED BvS and MOS, despite these flaws. But showing a bit more of the best side of Superman in the movie would have made everything even better, adding more poignancy to everything, because we would care more and worry more about how the world around this nice guy is really ganging up on him. Much like we care about the meta ganging up, too.

This. They made part of him being "nice" too subtle in BvS that most people who didn't look for only saw the stoic, emotionless figure hence the ending didn't have emotional impact on these people.

My Batfan friends called him a wimp because after all the ****s getting thrown at him he just gave up instead of making his stand. This just makes me more upset that they didn't let him talk at the senate scene.

 

[Herolee10]

I think the goal for the character should be to present him in ways where it doesn't feel like it would suck to be him in real life.

I didn't really get the impression, at any point in BvS, that Clark enjoyed doing what he did. Let me rephrase that. I know that Clark enjoyed helping people but it was just the way that the film portrayed it. Being Superman in this film (and in the previous film) felt like it was more of a burden, where there was absolutely no joy in being who he was.

It's not hard to see/understand why he cherishes his mother and Lois so much because they are literally the only source of levity present in his life.

 

[HELLilac]

I think the goal for the character should be to present him in ways where it doesn't feel like it would suck to be him in real life.

I didn't really get the impression, at any point in BvS, that Clark enjoyed doing what he did. Let me rephrase that. I know that Clark enjoyed helping people but it was just the way that the film portrayed it. Being Superman in this film (and in the previous film) felt like it was more of a burden, where there was absolutely no joy in being who he was.

It's not hard to see/understand why he cherishes his mother and Lois so much because they are literally the only source of levity present in his life.

And the way they didn't tone down his aggression made him come across as a miserable jerk to GA which made it harder for them to sympathise with than him being a miserable goody two shoes.

 

[AnneFan]

I think Clark tries to enjoy his role - smiling during the Day of the Dead rescue for example. But soon afterwards he's back to being reflective, pondering his role in the world and how he's perceived. The role of Superman absolutely was intended to be a burden to carry here. He's hounded out of town and only comes back to save Lois, and then as it turns out, the world.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

Well, I just watched it again, and I can say that the movie tortures Superman from beginning to end. Starting with Zod's fight, a terrorist threatens to blow his girlfriend's head, his boss gives him a hard time at work, mankind hates him, Bruce Wayne gives him a hostile conversation, Batman kicks his ass so hard that it makes him scream in agonizing pain, the media, He can't even have dinner without seeing a show that hates on Superman, the government (they throw a nuclear bomb at him & Doomsday not caring it could kill him too), Lex tortures his mom, Lex wants to kill him, Batman wants to kill him, doomsday wants to kill him (and actually does kill him) hell, even his fantasy about his father gives him pain.

The ONLY time he gets a little break is when he gets into that bathtub, for like 10 seconds.

Can any of you point a scene where he's not in pain/angst?

I'm surprised those tulips didn't come out of the paper bag and started beating him.

Passion of the Superman...and he died too for our sins.

 

[matt47]

I think Clark tries to enjoy his role - smiling during the Day of the Dead rescue for example. But soon afterwards he's back to being reflective, pondering his role in the world and how he's perceived. The role of Superman absolutely was intended to be a burden to carry here. He's hounded out of town and only comes back to save Lois, and then as it turns out, the world.

I love that little smile he has after saving the girl, looks like it's to her family.
That whole sequence was great, wish we hadn't seen all of it before the film came out though.

 

[AnneFan]

Dragging the ship was good. I interpret it almost as him literally dragging a heavy burden/responsibility.

 

[Herolee10]

I really wish that they would show Clark in situations where he actually enjoys using his powers, outside of his usual heroic duties. I miss moments like when he was smiling and excited over discovering the fact that he could fly in MOS for the first time.

I also wish that we would see him use his powers for his journalism duties.

How is it possible that every superman film that's come out since the 21st century is mainly known for having so many missed opportunities?

 

[Jaxon]

Can any of you point a scene where he's not in pain/angst?

This movie is the 2nd act of his arc so he predominately is meant to be in conflict. I'm sure once JL P1 is done that'll complete his character arc.

You have to view MoS, BvS, JL1 as Superman's full character arc

 

[Tony Gunk]

I'm not interested in 3 films to finally get the character people paid their money to see in the first two films. This "arc" wasn't planned anyway, it was all redone when they threw batman in there

 

[Bren]

I can foresee my future self watching MOS, fast forwarding through most of BvS and then getting on board JL1 & 2 when I do a DC movie night.

Regardless of being part of a build up, each individual film (and character) should be enjoyable individually. BvS, is not, for me.

 

[Marvin]

He asked, I delivered. Still for supposedly being a MOS sequel the actual Man of Steel has little to say.

I get that fine, I just pointed out an angle at which the question is kinda pointless. Depending on the day of the week, the movie is a sequel and or it's not. I personally thought for being a 'mos sequel' the man of steel had alot to do and was the impetus for almost everyone's game. Lots of heavy lifting at the end there but it is what it is.

 

[Man_of_Tomorrow]

This movie is the 2nd act of his arc so he predominately is meant to be in conflict. I'm sure once JL P1 is done that'll complete his character arc.

You have to view MoS, BvS, JL1 as Superman's full character arc

thats nonsense, name another hero that its taken three films to do this.

Is it honestly adding anything? I mean it helped set up Batman, but is it doing anything for Superman other than turning the GA off?

 

[Marvin]

^Ironically the GA has been turned off by superman for a while, and fans too looking at how the character sells vs others(see deadpool/spidey/batman etc).

I think Clark tries to enjoy his role - smiling during the Day of the Dead rescue for example. But soon afterwards he's back to being reflective, pondering his role in the world and how he's perceived. The role of Superman absolutely was intended to be a burden to carry here. He's hounded out of town and only comes back to save Lois, and then as it turns out, the world.

Yea, I think the hero that takes on the heavy burden and still sacrifices for all those that didn't accept him is a very viable. The whole oh no he didn't have so much fun doing what he does feels like a preconception that once again muddles any thing presented that simply doesn't gel...
At this point I think regardless of what snyder is trying to do with this material things have to change for I'm now convinced the uphill is just to steep. I've never seen anything like it. You'd be better served taking jesus in a 'burden/agnst' direction and people be open to the premise due to logic then you can with something like this.

Reversing time was more forgivable than Superman snapping necks

I find this statement pretty crazy, however given it's superman and the way the most audiences(and fans) are, I don't doubt it.
I will say, circumstance, the thing that allows for characters to do things inside of a story. I see it allowing for the latter to be acceptable(no choice, begging etc). I really don't see any circumstance that would allow for a writer to deus ex machina their ending outside of it being 1978(non 70's drama). But there is something about all of this I find upside down so I actually agree with the statement. Perhaps if it was an original character such things would be seen more I don't know reasonably. But if some director straight up pulled the time reverse instead of what they went for at the end of mos, it very well may have been better received.

 

[Jaxon]

thats nonsense, name another hero that its taken three films to do this.

Is it honestly adding anything? I mean it helped set up Batman, but is it doing anything for Superman other than turning the GA off?

Captain America is doing that. He spent the whole of the second film questioning what his role was and whether he belongs under an authority that he questions the motives of.
CA brooded the whole way through that movie and nobody had a problem with it.

 

[Greenians]

Well, I just watched it again, and I can say that the movie tortures Superman from beginning to end. Starting with Zod's fight, a terrorist threatens to blow his girlfriend's head, his boss gives him a hard time at work, mankind hates him, Bruce Wayne gives him a hostile conversation, Batman kicks his ass so hard that it makes him scream in agonizing pain, the media, He can't even have dinner without seeing a show that hates on Superman, the government (they throw a nuclear bomb at him & Doomsday not caring it could kill him too), Lex tortures his mom, Lex wants to kill him, Batman wants to kill him, doomsday wants to kill him (and actually does kill him) hell, even his fantasy about his father gives him pain.

The ONLY time he gets a little break is when he gets into that bathtub, for like 10 seconds.

Can any of you point a scene where he's not in pain/angst?

I'm surprised those tulips didn't come out of the paper bag and started beating him.

Made me chuckle this did. I prefer this Superman, than the goody two shoes nonsense that is so fecking boring.

 

[Man_of_Tomorrow]

^Ironically the GA has been turned off by superman for a while, and fans too looking at how the character sells vs others(see deadpool/spidey/batman etc).

.

What s really infuriating is I think the angst y thing could've worked, but the way it's played out is it so so dumb. When your defenders are actually out saying "he'll be ready by the end of the third movie" tis safe to say youve done something wrong.