Comics I am enraged (Feel free to merge this)

[Gregatron]

"Petey so happy, he want to crie! He use org-an-ick webbies to not make kitties with Em-JaY. After all, when he becoames big spidder, he lost pen-is and fingernails, and got sick, like Brundle-guy! JMZ likes Brundle-guy! Petey gonnas be just like him and puke acid on baddies! That kewl! That revolutirnonarie!"

 

[Dragon]

Read my response to Chris... it explains TO ME why he made such a decision.

Peter was under a lot of pressure, and Tony wasn't exactly giving him any breathing room to think about it, knowing how important it was to have such an everyman super-hero like Spidey on the Pro-Side. And it didn't help, as I've stated in another post, to have Aunt May, his only living relative whom he loves so much, give him her blessings. Think about all the guilt he's carried over the years about his tragedies because he's Spider-Man... and he could never confide any of that with teh one person on the planet who he loves so much... to hear HER utter those words of blessings must have been such an overwhelming weight removed from his shoulders, and maybe the feeling of how "right" it was to hear those words made him lose track of reality. As I've said before, people who live life of tragedies have a harder time dealing with tremendous "feel good" moments like Aunt May's blessing to Peter. He's not thinking how many times he's outsmarted Doc OCk, he's not thinking where they'll live in 30 years, he's just thinking "After a decade of guilt and hiding, my loving Aunt May has told me it's ok and do the right thing". And even after he does it, he's still having lingering misgivings... as the Peter Parker we've all come to know all the years would.

I understand what you're saying here. But I think the concepts are becoming a bit too intertwined. For example- Spidey is the everyman- to US, the readers. To the people of the Marvel Universe, he's far from being an everyman. He's this weird creepy guy who climbs walls. The fact that under the mask he has an apple pie face doesn't change anything if the public thinks he's a freak.

Secondly, I again have trouble buying that May would push him in that or any direction for that matter. If anything, she'd look at him and tell him that he should trust his own judgement, as it's kept him, her, MJ and countless others alive for so long.

As for Ironman putting the pressure on- that just it- Spidey never took pressure from anyone. This is why I say he's become Tony's sidekick. Peter would fight anyone- ANYONE who tried to tell him what to do- remember ASM annual #3? He was ready to fight the entire Avengers line-up. And he was willing to fail their test to do what he felt was right. This is Spidey at his best. No one pushes him around, nobody pressures him. He's the little little engine that could.

 

[Themanofbat]

If you get bored, move on. Don't take these character away from future generations because you insist on growth and change in order to maintain your own interest in the material.

Let's look at the Spidey mythos alone for a moment...

What about the break-up of Betty & Peter? Was that not change? They had everything going for them and an opportunity for Peter to be happy. But things happened based on growth and change.

The introduction of Mary Jane Watson. Peter was starting to dig a certain blonde in his chemistry class at college. Could have gone somewhere with her, but Stan throws a curve ball at the readers... based on growth and change.

The death of Captain Stacy... especially when the character was really starting to get interesting. But he was killed nonetheless... based on growth and change.

The death of Gwen Stacy... heaven's forbid... Peter's true love??? I could go on a rant that she was merely killed because a young 19 year old Gerry Conway couldn't write her character to save his life, but she was killed needlessly anyway, and people praise this as one of THE best things that ever happened in Spider-Man comics... all based on growth and change.

Peter's first proposal to Mary Jane... suddenly, Peter realizes how important MJ is to him, and proposes. She rejects the offer and leaves the book for over 5 years of our time (about 60 issues). An important character disappears for a long time based on growth and change.

The creation of the HobGoblin. Rather than attempting to bring back another version of the Green Goblin, Roger Stern does something completely different... A story yet again based on growth and change.

Peter Parker gets a black costume that appears to be made of magical fabric that can read his thoughts (and THAT's how it was presented to us in 1984... as silly a concept as some of the crap people are biatching about now... yet it turns out to be one of Spidey's greatest enemies). Again, a story based on growth and change.

Mary Jane knows Peter's secret identity and she has known since the begining. A startling turn of events in the Spidey books, and all based on character growth and change.

Peter and Mary Jane finally get married. As shocking as it might have been to some, it seemed perfectly normal to many of us... yet another story based on growth and change.

And then there were Peter parent's coming back, his agreement with Venom, Kraven's suicide, Aunt May's "death"... all stories based on character growth and change. Maybe you liked some of these events, maybe you didn't. Though I have a hunch that you liked some of them. So don't get all high & mighty with me for liking "growth and change" because you're just as guilty. Perhaps you might not like some of the recent changes, and that's you're perogative (I'm not a fan of many of them either), but if growth and change didn't happen in Spider-Man comics, he'd still be a teenager getting Spidey pics to JJJ while still working up the nerver to ask Betty Brant to the High School Sock Hop.

Personally, I'm glad we have growth and change in comics.

There not always great (or even good), but at least it keeps the books from becoming stale and stagnant (Ultimate Spider-Man anyone?)

Feel your head. Your may find a helmet-like item atop it.

I have my hand on something that feels like a helmit, but it's not on my head...

 

[Gregatron]

If you feel that new ideas, be them good or bad ideas, but at least "new" ideas, have no place in comics, then by all means, by a bunch of Essentials and re-read the same old stories over and over again.

Ive not been a big fan with some of the events in the Spidey-Books over the last few years, but at least someone wants to try something different.

If things were to remain the same, we'd still be reading about a Flash named Jay Garrett, a Robin still teenaged by the name of Dick Grayson, a Batman who's married to Selina Kyle, a Sue & Reed Richards with no children, an X-Men team with no Wolverine, a living Gwen Stacy, no Venom (no symbiote suit), etc...

This Civil War idea is a pretty good one because it pits long-time friends against one another where I hope that the ripples keep going for a long time afterwards. The Marvel Universe has always been about growth and change. Sure, we've praised some change, like the death of Gwen Stacy, Venom, etc... but when bad changes occur, we cry foul and say stupid things like the aforementioned "<fill in the blank, ad nauseum> have no place in superhero comics, and that's the rock-bottom truth of it."

I'm sorry to tell you that Marvel comics are about change. Does that mean you can liek all of them, or that I will like all of them? Of course not.

I hated the fact that Spidey got a black symbiote costume in 1984. But did I boycott comics? No. Do I like the current direction in the Spidey books as of late? Not overwhelmingly. But I can see the pressure that Peter was facing when his friends and loved ones were telling him it was the right thing to do and that it was ok, and I can understand why he chose to unmask himself... he's never had the reasssurance of Aunt May on any of his super-hero decisions, and when she gave him her blessings, it was probably a tremendous weight lifted off his shoulders... and that m'boy, was great and proper use of character development.

However, I can't tell you what to like and dislike in your comics. As I've stated prior, if you want to read stuff that you're familiar with, there are plenty of back issues and reprint material that can satiate your need with familiarity. But I've read all those books before... some I love, some not so much... but I want to see where the story moves onward.

Cheers...

Also, character development will inevitably lead to: END OF SERIES.

So many doors will close and so many things will change that the end must be inevitable.

Instead of being an eternally youthful teenage character who will appeal to the children of each successive generation, Spider-Man will become older and older and more and more "mature" until he meets his end when some hotshot decides that he will write the LAST SPIDER-MAN story and "crack the Internet in half".

 

[Gregatron]

Let's look at the Spidey mythos alone for a moment...

What about the break-up of Betty & Peter? Was that not change? They had everything going for them and an opportunity for Peter to be happy. But things happened based on growth and change.

The introduction of Mary Jane Watson. Peter was starting to dig a certain blonde in his chemistry class at college. Could have gone somewhere with her, but Stan throws a curve ball at the readers... based on growth and change.

The death of Captain Stacy... especially when the character was really starting to get interesting. But he was killed nonetheless... based on growth and change.

The death of Gwen Stacy... heaven's forbid... Peter's true love??? I could go on a rant that she was merely killed because a young 19 year old Gerry Conway couldn't write her character to save his life, but she was killed needlessly anyway, and people praise this as one of THE best things that ever happened in Spider-Man comics... all based on growth and change.

Peter's first proposal to Mary Jane... suddenly, Peter realizes how important MJ is to him, and proposes. She rejects the offer and leaves the book for over 5 years of our time (about 60 issues). An important character disappears for a long time based on growth and change.

The creation of the HobGoblin. Rather than attempting to bring back another version of the Green Goblin, Roger Stern does something completely different... A story yet again based on growth and change.

Peter Parker gets a black costume that appears to be made of magical fabric that can read his thoughts (and THAT's how it was presented to us in 1984... as silly a concept as some of the crap people are biatching about now... yet it turns out to be one of Spidey's greatest enemies). Again, a story based on growth and change.

Mary Jane knows Peter's secret identity and she has known since the begining. A startling turn of events in the Spidey books, and all based on character growth and change.

Peter and Mary Jane finally get married. As shocking as it might have been to some, it seemed perfectly normal to many of us... yet another story based on growth and change.

And then there were Peter parent's coming back, his agreement with Venom, Kraven's suicide, Aunt May's "death"... all stories based on character growth and change. Maybe you liked some of these events, maybe you didn't. Though I have a hunch that you liked some of them. So don't get all high & mighty with me for liking "growth and change" because you're just as guilty. Perhaps you might not like some of the recent changes, and that's you're perogative (I'm not a fan of many of them either), but if growth and change didn't happen in Spider-Man comics, he'd still be a teenager getting Spidey pics to JJJ while still working up the nerver to ask Betty Brant to the High School Sock Hop.

Personally, I'm glad we have growth and change in comics.

There not always great (or even good), but at least it keeps the books from becoming stale and stagnant (Ultimate Spider-Man anyone?)



I have my hand on something that feels like a helmit, but it's not on my head...

Introducing and killing characters is the illusion of change. New characters come and go, but Spidey stays the same, those are the rules of the game.

True change affects the main character himself in ways that close doors instead of opening them the way that new characters and character deaths do. MJ knowing Peter's identity was a big twist (and gave Peter a confidante), but the effects weren't felt until the marriage, which actually changed things permanently.

The trouble began when Peter went to college, and he aged. When Gwen died, that was really the beginning of the end, because it divided things into "pre-Gwen's death" and "post-Gwen's death". These events aged Peter, which led to the marriage, which led to the Clone Saga, which led to May's death, which led to baby May, which led to the reboot, which led to JMS, which led to Sins Past and The Other and on and on.

 

[stillanerd]

No.

Just read your post about agreeing with Dragon. My bad. BTW, apparently, Spidey, under Iron Man, is also

Spoiler

issuing field commands to the other heroes in Civil War #3, too.

 

[Themanofbat]

Also, character development will inevitably lead to: END OF SERIES.

So many doors will close and so many things will change that the end must be inevitable.

Instead of being an eternally youthful teenage character who will appeal to the children of each successive generation, Spider-Man will become older and older and more and more "mature" until he meets his end when some hotshot decides that he will write the LAST SPIDER-MAN story and "crack the Internet in half".

Introducing and killing characters is the illusion of change. New characters come and go, but Spidey stays the same, those are the rules of the game.

True change affects the main character himself in ways that close doors instead of opening them the way that new characters and character deaths do. MJ knowing Peter's identity was a big twist (and gave Peter a confidante), but the effects weren't felt until the marriage, which actually changed things permanently.

The trouble began when Peter went to college, and he aged. When Gwen died, that was really the beginning of the end, because it divided things into "pre-Gwen's death" and "post-Gwen's death". These events aged Peter, which led to the marriage, which led to the Clone Saga, which led to May's death, which led to baby May, which led to the reboot, which led to JMS, which led to Sins Past and The Other and on and on.

The thing is though... while I don't want to read of the Adventures of Spider-Man: the Viagra Years... I certainly do not want to read about him being a silly teenager his whole life.

They've brought him to a certain point in his life... his late 20's... where they can tell great stories that do not necessarily age him.

The problem with that is that you need good writers to accomplish that... something the industry is lacking.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I wouldn't go that far, Greg. He couldn't stay in high school forever. But they could have made natural progressions WITHOUT going as far off-track as they have.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Just read your post about agreeing with Dragon. My bad. BTW, apparently, Spidey, under Iron Man, is also

Spoiler

issuing field commands to the other heroes in Civil War #3, too.

Oh, my GOD!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[gliderpilotgirl]

gah!! (just read CW 3)

Spoiler

I know Spider-man feels he is doing the right thing, but it just doesn't seem in character for him to attack Cap, DD and Vision like that.

 

[Chris Wallace]

The thing is though... while I don't want to read of the Adventures of Spider-Man: the Viagra Years... I certainly do not want to read about him being a silly teenager his whole life.

They've brought him to a certain point in his life... his late 20's... where they can tell great stories that do not necessarily age him.

The problem with that is that you need good writers to accomplish that... something the industry is lacking.

The point is, this whole scenario is ill-conceived & badly written.

 

[Cullen]

Just read your post about agreeing with Dragon. My bad. BTW, apparently, Spidey, under Iron Man, is also

Spoiler

issuing field commands to the other heroes in Civil War #3, too.

Spoiler

While issuing orders isn't entirely alien to the character, it does jar more than a little.

 

[stillanerd]

How many great Spidey stories ended with Peter/Spidey walking/swinging off alone, because he chose to follow his conscience rather than doing that which would make him appear "heroic" to the crowd? This is what made him the great character he is.

Precisely my point. He did things which were right regardless of what others thought of him, even if he wished that they would appreciate him. Now he's basically doing things in order to make the public like him. Ironically, it was that very attitude, back when he was a wrestler/entertainer, that cost him Uncle Ben. You would think he'd LEARN from experience rather than being played like Iron Man's personal puppet.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I understand what you're saying here. But I think the concepts are becoming a bit too intertwined. For example- Spidey is the everyman- to US, the readers. To the people of the Marvel Universe, he's far from being an everyman. He's this weird creepy guy who climbs walls. The fact that under the mask he has an apple pie face doesn't change anything if the public thinks he's a freak.

Secondly, I again have trouble buying that May would push him in that or any direction for that matter. If anything, she'd look at him and tell him that he should trust his own judgement, as it's kept him, her, MJ and countless others alive for so long.

As for Ironman putting the pressure on- that just it- Spidey never took pressure from anyone. This is why I say he's become Tony's sidekick. Peter would fight anyone- ANYONE who tried to tell him what to do- remember ASM annual #3? He was ready to fight the entire Avengers line-up. And he was willing to fail their test to do what he felt was right. This is Spidey at his best. No one pushes him around, nobody pressures him. He's the little little engine that could.

Remember that mini where he teamed up w/X-Factor?
"Nobody orders me nothin'!"

 

[Captivated]

It's not bad enough they've got Spidey rolling over & selling out, but nobodies like Prodigy, Patriot & Speedball standing their ground?!? Speedball is in prison, getting beaten & tortured, but still he stands his ground. Spidey's asked to just unmask in public, & does it with no problem?

Speaking JUST about the premise of the Civil War (NOT commenting on all the other problems being tacked on here)... it's taken me awhile to get a feel for the "issues," and after reading Civil War #3, I feel an "opinion" coming on... and it's not what I thought it would be, or what I think Marvel is obviously going for.

The intro to Civil War #3 reads: After Stamford, connecticut is distroyed during a televised fight between the New Warriors and a group of dangerous villains, public sentiment turns against super heroes... Advocates call for reform, and a Superhuman Registration Act is debated, which would require all those possessing paranormal abilities to register with the government, divulge their true identities to the authorities and submit to training and sanctioning in the manner of federal agents.

Some heroes, such as Iron Man, see this as a natural evolution of the role of superhumans in society, and a reasonable request. Others view the Act as an assult on their civil liberties...

​

If they want to make this all seem more "real world" then let's get real. I know I'm glad that police officers, soldiers, federal agents, etc. are TRAINED and "licensed" (for lack of a better word)... as they are given power over others and need to be held accountable.

In REALITY can you imagine any of those groups protesting that it is a violation of their CIVIL LIBERTIES to require them to attend a police academy, basic training, or any other process that has been developed, before they can carry a weapon, enforce the law, etc...? I'm mean, how nutty would that be?

We submit to training, a test, an identification process, and rules to hold a simple drivers license and no one associates that with civil liberties violations. (Ok, some do, but they are kinda "out there"...)

Why would superpowered individuals, who have GREAT power not expect to have greater responsibility... hmmm? In that I don't think that Peter is acting out of character by registering. (Captain America on the other hand...)

The unmasking -- which was not part of the original idea for this story -- is a different story. The Act doesn't require a PUBLIC reveal of their civilian identities, so I don't buy that Peter would do this. The government employs thousands of agents with SECRET identities... this is not a new concept!

You could argue that the Act was rushed and not properly written... they aren't really giving us details... but I don't think the premise is outrageous, and it certainly doesn't sound like something that would qualify as a civil rights violation... worth fighting to the death. (But I guess fight in court isn't quite as dramatic... )

And, I certainly wouldn't hold up Patriot & Speedball as examples of nobility. They are not acting like heroes to me, at all. I don't know much about Speedball, but his denying ANY responsibiliy for what happened -- when, where and what they did WAS reckless -- comes across as peevish and immature. A little training might benefit him immensely. If I were She Hulk, listening to him whine that signing that paper was equal to admitting guilt (when it was more a chance to register and not be punished for his carelessness), I might have slapped him up side the head too.

As for the way they are approching the ones who are not complying... Is that what Captain A has the most problem with? Not sure I get why there isn't education about the requirements of the Act (as in, what does this new accountability look like), and time given to digest it... Oh, yes I do... we have to have a reason for the heroes to be fighting each other, which is the real reason for the story.

Perhaps Peter feels that violently resisting the government is hardly "heroic"...

Captain America could have had his day in court, but instead decided to resist arrest and to assault no less than three dozen Federal agents....Unfortunately by the laws of the land, he's now a criminal.

I have to agree. This is a more realistic response.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Doesn't it kind of defeat the purpose of having superheroes if they're under government control? Giving them badges, having their identities known to any government bigshot who wants it? It takes all the fun out of it.

 

[Chris Wallace]

The way I see it, every single person in a mask, tights or whatever, should have either taken the Captain America route, or the Firestar route. None of them should have gone along with it. They should've seen the Act for what it was, & opposed it. The war shouldn't be hero against hero; it should be heroes against the cops/SHIELD/military.

 

[stillanerd]

Speaking JUST about the premise of the Civil War (NOT commenting on all the other problems being tacked on here)... it's taken me awhile to get a feel for the "issues," and after reading Civil War #3, I feel an "opinion" coming on... and it's not what I thought it would be, or what I think Marvel is obviously going for.

The intro to Civil War #3 reads: After Stamford, connecticut is distroyed during a televised fight between the New Warriors and a group of dangerous villains, public sentiment turns against super heroes... Advocates call for reform, and a Superhuman Registration Act is debated, which would require all those possessing paranormal abilities to register with the government, divulge their true identities to the authorities and submit to training and sanctioning in the manner of federal agents.

Some heroes, such as Iron Man, see this as a natural evolution of the role of superhumans in society, and a reasonable request. Others view the Act as an assult on their civil liberties...

​

If they want to make this all seem more "real world" then let's get real. I know I'm glad that police officers, soldiers, federal agents, etc. are TRAINED and "licensed" (for lack of a better word)... as they are given power over others and need to be held accountable.

In REALITY can you imagine any of those groups protesting that it is a violation of their CIVIL LIBERTIES to require them to attend a police academy, basic training, or any other process that has been developed, before they can carry a weapon, enforce the law, etc...? I'm mean, how nutty would that be?

We submit to training, a test, an identification process, and rules to hold a simple drivers license and no one associates that with civil liberties violations. (Ok, some do, but they are kinda "out there"...)

Why would superpowered individuals, who have GREAT power not expect to have greater responsibility... hmmm? In that I don't think that Peter is acting out of character by registering. (Captain America on the other hand...)

The unmasking -- which was not part of the original idea for this story -- is a different story. The Act doesn't require a PUBLIC reveal of their civilian identities, so I don't buy that Peter would do this. The government employs thousands of agents with SECRET identities... this is not a new concept!

You could argue that the Act was rushed and not properly written... they aren't really giving us details... but I don't think the premise is outrageous, and it certainly doesn't sound like something that would qualify as a civil rights violation... worth fighting to the death. (But I guess fight in court isn't quite as dramatic... )

And, I certainly wouldn't hold up Patriot & Speedball as examples of nobility. They are not acting like heroes to me, at all. I don't know much about Speedball, but his denying ANY responsibiliy for what happened -- when, where and what they did WAS reckless -- comes across as peevish and immature. A little training might benefit him immensely. If I were She Hulk, listening to him whine that signing that paper was equal to admitting guilt (when it was more a chance to register and not be punished for his carelessness), I might have slapped him up side the head too.

As for the way they are approching the ones who are not complying... Is that what Captain A has the most problem with? Not sure I get why there isn't education about the requirements of the Act (as in, what does this new accountability look like), and time given to digest it... Oh, yes I do... we have to have a reason for the heroes to be fighting each other, which is the real reason for the story.

Too bad Marvel can't exactly articulate the pro-registration position as logically as you did, Captivated. Perhaps because they had no intention of doing so. I've been saying that the argument of "Centralized Authority vs. Vigilantism" is being overshadowed in favor of a "Civil Liberties vs. security" angle is because Marvel has made no secret that Civil War is supposed to be analgous to the current "War on Terriorism" as well as Spetember 11th, Gitmo, and especially the Patriot Act. And guess which side of the debate Marvel comes down on? So far, those characters who support registration come across as either being tools and lapdogs for the government (Spider-Man), manipulative backstabbers (Iron Man), cold (Reed Richards), right-wing zealots (Jameson) or just shy of being a facist (Maria Hill). Course, the anti-registration side comes across as self-righteous hoolagins (hey, maybe there's what Marvel meant by presenting both sides equally--both camps come across like a bunch of jerks ) but it's pretty evident that these are the guys Marvel wants us to root for--cult of the underdog and all that. So much for the claim that there is "no right or wrong side."

BTW, I'm betting that, in the end, Speedball will be exonerated of what happened in Stamford because I suspect it will be revealed that the Riverbank Massacre was orchestrated by the "military industrial complex"--you know, the ones that created the super-villains according to the Scorpion in Marvel Knights Spider-Man #1-12?--and that they hired Nitro to ensure that an explosion happened with lots of casualties knowing that the New Warriors would show up in order to ensure that SHRA would pass. You know, just like some crackpots on the far-left claim that 9-11 was an orchestrated event or that the Bush Administration ignored what happened in order to have a war in the Middle East? Yes, I do believe Marvel will take it THAT far, along with Iron Man torturing Captain America just to drive the point home.

And yes, Peter not having to reveal his identity to the public meant that he had a THIRD OPTION contrary to what was presented in ASM #532, which means JMS and Joe Q have effectively turned Spidey into an idiot on top of being a tool.

 

[farmernudie]

yeh well, they needed a new "Storyline" to get superheroes to battle each other for this Cival War.

And Spidey got stuck in the middle and unmasked even.

yay.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I actually have my own doubts about what Bush did or didn't know, but that's not what we're here to discuss.

 

[stillanerd]

I actually have my own doubts about what Bush did or didn't know, but that's not what we're here to discuss.

Didn't mean to go off on a political tangent there (and I doubt you're a "crackpot"), but then again, Civil War is supposed to have political overtones.

Anyway, now that my campaign speech is done it's back to the other point, which is, considering that SHRA didn't require Spidey to reveal his identity to the public--and since S.H.I.E.L.D. already had his name on file to begin with--he still could've gone up on that podium and said that while he's complying with registration, he's not revealing his real name for the sake of his family and would've been in complete compliance with the law. And unless Iron Man or S.H.I.E.L.D. decided to "punish" Peter by leaking his identity to the press, legally there was nothing they could do about it. But hey, Peter's identity as Spider-Man being leaked by an "annoymous source" would've been too logical for Marvel as opposed to him publicly revealing his identity.

 

[Marc]

Perhaps Peter feels that violently resisting the government is hardly "heroic"...

Captain America could have had his day in court, but instead decided to resist arrest and to assault no less than three dozen Federal agents....Unfortunately by the laws of the land, he's now a criminal.

Isn't your constitution setup so that you are allowed organized militia in opposition to the government to resist efforts against your freedoms? And frankly, laws are for those without power. People with power make the laws, they take what they want and they define what happens after that. That is Spider-Man's creed. Violently resisting it is underlined for your government! And has millions of examples throughout history, but then I suppose all history means nothing and stopped right there and then so Spidey could have a moral high ground. With some kind of pacifist attitude to violence, while at the same time fighting other superheroes..... yeah this doesn't work... at all.

And FFS, how many times has Spidey resisted arrest, defied the order of law stating he was a criminal. Did he walk into the police station, hands up and kneeling like a little *****? No, he stood up for what he believed in, his principles. He used Uncle Ben's words as a guideline, he has the power to make a difference and he has the right and responsability to damn well use it.

And pressure would do sod all to a man who has had to watch his true love plunge to her bloody death! I mean christ, do you need a more haunting image burned into your memory about the costs of this 'game' he is playing? If MJ and May are trying to convince him otherwise, get a sodding backbone and point out the freaking obvious. They would/SHOULD die if everyone knew he was their weakness like Gwen. Its like a millseconds worth of memory recall and a point which neither could refute as to the cost. Ignoring this blatent fact is more damning evidence that the writers simply haven't got one iota of a clue between them. This, like so many things lately is a MASSIVE character betrayal that is simply sickening. Hell, **** Peter, it is a betrayal of common sense! Any half wit would logically work out its a bad idea to tell everyone who you are at the risk of loved one's. I haven't had my true love killed on me to know this before the fact. I mean holy ****, do you have to be mentally ******ed to ignore this conclusion? What kind of genius is spidey supposed to be. If someone had presented the situation to me without names or connections I would have assumed the guy deciding this was a total moron. Let alone a guy who has the grave of someone to connect the dots and is a supposed genius. A rock could outsmart this current spidey, or a Tony Stark lacking any intelligent decisions who can click his fingers and get him to jump asking how high.

Seriously, the amount of excuses you lot come up with to justify **** like this literally embarass me as a human.

Christ, he is fighting cap and DD now???????????? Oh piss off, what, how... of all the characters to fight with, those two are the least likely.

Captivated - What authority and what license did guys like Napoleon and Washington have? They aren't even close to being as powerful as these people. And Peter is responsable for using his power, not for answering to other powers. If he believed that then he would have done something about it at least a decade beforehand, would have joined a team at least. And if what superheroe's do is reckless, then what of wars where bombs are dropped on civilian area's? Do commanders, do presidents etc. come out and resigning or putting themselves on trial? God no, because they have the power to say they don't need to. That this is just a consequence of war or whatever.

 

[Captivated]

As for Ironman putting the pressure on- that just it- Spidey never took pressure from anyone. This is why I say he's become Tony's sidekick. Peter would fight anyone- ANYONE who tried to tell him what to do- remember ASM annual #3? He was ready to fight the entire Avengers line-up. And he was willing to fail their test to do what he felt was right. This is Spidey at his best. No one pushes him around, nobody pressures him. He's the little little engine that could.

He's STILL that person who does what he believes is right, even if it goes against the flow... You can always depend on Peter to do what he feels is the right thing to do. BUT Peter CAN also be too trusting... and things may not be as they seem.

As for the example you gave, I think the differences here are several: For the first time he is an official part of a TEAM that has provided him with support. His family lives in a virtual fortress. And the advice he is getting is coming from a fellow superhero... someone who KNOWS Peter (in and out of the mask) who he admires and who has given respect back to Peter. That, and given the circumstances of the SHR Act, is why he considered Tony's request. (I STILL think he would have declined, since it wasn't a requirement, but it isn't COMPLETELY off the wall, like Gwen and Norman...)

But, if he -- as you suggested above -- just fought ANYONE (willy-nilly) who told him what to do, he'd be acting like a freaking 2-year old. He chooses to comply or not. No one forces him.

Sidebar: I know many would argue that Peter would not have joined the New Avengers in the first place... but I disagree. It IS something that he has wanted -- acceptance and respect -- but he would never compromise to get, and this time he didn't have to. It didn't seem out of character, the way it happened.

Now whether or not he can remain a team player will depend on the direction of the team... I have no doubt he will bail if things change... which they will.

 

[Captivated]

gah!! (just read CW 3)

Spoiler

I know Spider-man feels he is doing the right thing, but it just doesn't seem in character for him to attack Cap, DD and Vision like that.

Yeah... And, what about what Cap did to Iron Man...?

I thought IM was making sense actually... I don't know... I'm beginning to not get what Cap's side has their shorts in a wad over...

 

[Marc]

Sidebar: I know many would argue that Peter would not have joined the New Avengers in the first place... but I disagree. It IS something that he has wanted -- acceptance and respect -- but he would never compromise to get, and this time he didn't have to. It didn't seem out of character, the way it happened.

Except for the fact he had already joined the Avengers before and resigned as I recall. Its like joining the army, deciding this life isn't for you, then years down the road... joining the marines. This is one of the least non-sensical contradictions though, so bigger battles and all that.

And Peter already made his choice and remade it everyday he decided not to reveal his identity, how many days is that, how many decisions of not revealing? As for 'virtual fortress'... what happened to their last fortress and how long did it take for an enemy to gain entry in the new one? And that somone he respects is a gnat compared to Cap in his respect or a amoeba in terms of friendship compared to DD.