Comics Iceman vs Human Torch

[Cyclops]

How can he take the advantage when he himself has never done these kind of things? You don't pit battles at their potential bests, but even if you did, Johnny would still win, as his potential best was when he was a herald of Galactus.

You take them as they are now. Right - now. Not at the "maybe if Bobby was able to do all the crazy things Emma Frost did with his powers that he never figured out how to do" level, but as they are. Because that way, let's face it - you're just trying to tip the scales in Bobby's favor because you know that in the here and now, Bobby would lose bad.

As they are, Johnny can melt steel, fly at speeds that nearly break the sound barrier, and knock nearly anybody for a loop in energy-based combat. Bobby does not have nearly the experience using his own powers as other people do, so how can you factor him in at doing things with ease, mind you, that he has never himself done before? This is what confuses me about those who think Iceman wins easily. How can you have him doing things he only did when Emma Frost was controlling his mind? He can't do those kinds of things. His body can, but not him.

Johnny overwhelms Bobby with sheer speed and power. As was demonstrated when the X-Men went to investigate Ranch X or whatever it was called, Bobby is not impervious to flames even in ice form, so Johnny can hurt him alot. Meanwhile, Iceman's repertoire of attacks, mainly blasting at him with ice in either beam form or solid form, isn't doing much to help him, as Johnny's melted bullets midair. Icicles pose no threat. So Bobby switches tactics. Tries to sap some moisture out of the air, dry up the Torch and drop him that way. Problem is, this takes concentration. A whole lot more concentration than it takes Johnny to not be a stationary target and smack the popsicle in the face with a well-tossed fireball, taking him down and out for the count. We're not going for a kill, we're going for a knockout, and Johnny KOs Iceman more often than not.

 

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

How can he take the advantage when he himself has never done these kind of things? You don't pit battles at their potential bests, but even if you did, Johnny would still win, as his potential best was when he was a herald of Galactus.

You take them as they are now. Right - now. Not at the "maybe if Bobby was able to do all the crazy things Emma Frost did with his powers that he never figured out how to do" level, but as they are. Because that way, let's face it - you're just trying to tip the scales in Bobby's favor because you know that in the here and now, Bobby would lose bad.

As they are, Johnny can melt steel, fly at speeds that nearly break the sound barrier, and knock nearly anybody for a loop in energy-based combat. Bobby does not have nearly the experience using his own powers as other people do, so how can you factor him in at doing things with ease, mind you, that he has never himself done before? This is what confuses me about those who think Iceman wins easily. How can you have him doing things he only did when Emma Frost was controlling his mind? He can't do those kinds of things. His body can, but not him.

Johnny overwhelms Bobby with sheer speed and power. As was demonstrated when the X-Men went to investigate Ranch X or whatever it was called, Bobby is not impervious to flames even in ice form, so Johnny can hurt him alot. Meanwhile, Iceman's repertoire of attacks, mainly blasting at him with ice in either beam form or solid form, isn't doing much to help him, as Johnny's melted bullets midair. Icicles pose no threat. So Bobby switches tactics. Tries to sap some moisture out of the air, dry up the Torch and drop him that way. Problem is, this takes concentration. A whole lot more concentration than it takes Johnny to not be a stationary target and smack the popsicle in the face with a well-tossed fireball, taking him down and out for the count. We're not going for a kill, we're going for a knockout, and Johnny KOs Iceman more often than not.

Well said

 

[ProfeZZor X]

How can he take the advantage when he himself has never done these kind of things? You don't pit battles at their potential bests, but even if you did, Johnny would still win, as his potential best was when he was a herald of Galactus.

I am probably one of the biggest experts when it comes to Robert Louis Drake, aka: Iceman, aka: Drake Roberts, aka: Rampage II, aka: Mr. Frost, aka: Popsicle, aka: Freeze Face.... and according to the current universe, Iceman has possessed 98% of those powers I mentioned in my previously post.

You take them as they are now. Right - now. Not at the "maybe if Bobby was able to do all the crazy things Emma Frost did with his powers that he never figured out how to do" level, but as they are..

It's unfortunate that Bobby has gone through some really crappy writers over the past couple of years, but I managed to stick it out and remember some of the good issues he's had. One of the first issues that got me re-interested in this character was Uncanny #302, "Colossus Unleashed" in which he had shown a great deal of power control years before your so called "Emma" situation. Then there was the onslaught issues where he survived and functioned with his chest being blown out. Then there was X-Men Forever, in which he realized that he could be incinerated and survive in a vapour form, could travel through the air as vapour in seconds, could freeze a structure 50 times the size of the space shuttle, and travel through water at the speed of sound.

Even long before that, he wore a dampener belt to reduce the amount of power he had, he walked up to the Sentinel leader Bastion's doorstep and single-handedly defeated him using an animated ice clone, and could have killed one of the most powerful mutants in exsistance: David Haller aka: Legion, by shattering him after freezing every water molecule of water in his body. He could also grow to gigantic proportions using water. None of that was shown to him by Emma... So open your mind and realize that he's capable of far more feats than Johnny.

And all of these things happened in the continuity of THIS UNIVERSE, not an alternate one.

As they are, Johnny can melt steel, fly at speeds that nearly break the sound barrier, and knock nearly anybody for a loop in energy-based combat. Bobby does not have nearly the experience using his own powers as other people do, so how can you factor him in at doing things with ease, mind you, that he has never himself done before? This is what confuses me about those who think Iceman wins easily. How can you have him doing things he only did when Emma Frost was controlling his mind? He can't do those kinds of things. His body can, but not him...

Again, you're basing Iceman's powers from the one issue he had with Emma Frost. Just because he's written as immature doesn't mean that he's not creative with his powers. He's just not as disceplined and as driven as Johnny these days. If you can find a copy of X-Men #1, the very first issue, you'll read that he was the most powerful and cunning with his powers than any of the X-Men.

Johnny overwhelms Bobby with sheer speed and power. Johnny's melted bullets midair. Bobby tries to sap some moisture out of the air, dry up the Torch and drop him that way. Problem is, this takes concentration.

Like I said, Iceman can travel at the speed of sound in water OR vapour form. He can also either STOP, or ABSORB bullets and survive. It would also be stupid to think that Bobby could even pull moisture out of the Torch to begin with, so why bother come up with that scenario. If anything, he'd use some sort of extinguishing tactics to take him down. Remember, this is a survival match, and I'm pretty sure he'd be a hell of a lot more creative with his powers if his life depended on it...

 

[Cyclops]

Who said this was a survival match? Neither Johnny nor Bobby have any reason to kill the other, so why would they?

And before you say "They have no reason to fight each other either", superheroes fight each other all the time. But they don't KILL each other. Neither Bobby nor Johnny are killers, so I don't see any reason why life or death would be brought into it.

Your entire argument for Bobby winning seems to hinge on "If Johnny was trying to kill him, Bobby's survival instincts would kick in and he'd go ape**** nuts on him." But there's no reason for Bobby's survival instincts to go in because Johnny Storm is not a murderer.

He's capable of alot, yeah, but really... is he going to use these capabilities? Johnny could go supernova and KO Bobby with one hit. And he'd do it faster than Bobby could react. But I sincerely doubt that Johnny would go that far. Just like I sincerely doubt that Bobby would ever go as far as trying to kill Johnny Storm like you're suggesting he would.

Remember, the potential scope of one's powers is not necessarily what is going to be used in a fight. Remember - powerwise, most of Captain America's foes should have spanked him silly - yet every time, he comes out on top.

While both Johnny and Bobby are quite powerful in their own rights, Johnny's got the edge skillwise to put him over the top.

 

[ProfeZZor X]

Who said this was a survival match? Neither Johnny nor Bobby have any reason to kill the other, so why would they?

And before you say "They have no reason to fight each other either", superheroes fight each other all the time. But they don't KILL each other. Neither Bobby nor Johnny are killers, so I don't see any reason why life or death would be brought into it.

While both Johnny and Bobby are quite powerful in their own rights, Johnny's got the edge skillwise to put him over the top.

I was pointing out far better self-recognizing abilities from past issues that you assumed Emma had shown him, which seemed to be the basis of your initial arguement. The big difference here which makes Iceman the more powerful is that Bobby can survive WITHOUT a physical body, whereas Johnny cannot. Johnny needs a plasma form, whereas Iceman only needs any remote form of moisture to survive. That in itself is a huge difference.

And I never said that I thought this was a death match between the two.

 

[Cyclops]

Then where did "Remember, this is a survival match" come from?

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

How can he take the advantage when he himself has never done these kind of things? You don't pit battles at their potential bests, but even if you did, Johnny would still win, as his potential best was when he was a herald of Galactus.

You take them as they are now. Right - now. Not at the "maybe if Bobby was able to do all the crazy things Emma Frost did with his powers that he never figured out how to do" level, but as they are. Because that way, let's face it - you're just trying to tip the scales in Bobby's favor because you know that in the here and now, Bobby would lose bad.

As they are, Johnny can melt steel, fly at speeds that nearly break the sound barrier, and knock nearly anybody for a loop in energy-based combat. Bobby does not have nearly the experience using his own powers as other people do, so how can you factor him in at doing things with ease, mind you, that he has never himself done before? This is what confuses me about those who think Iceman wins easily. How can you have him doing things he only did when Emma Frost was controlling his mind? He can't do those kinds of things. His body can, but not him.

Johnny overwhelms Bobby with sheer speed and power. As was demonstrated when the X-Men went to investigate Ranch X or whatever it was called, Bobby is not impervious to flames even in ice form, so Johnny can hurt him alot. Meanwhile, Iceman's repertoire of attacks, mainly blasting at him with ice in either beam form or solid form, isn't doing much to help him, as Johnny's melted bullets midair. Icicles pose no threat. So Bobby switches tactics. Tries to sap some moisture out of the air, dry up the Torch and drop him that way. Problem is, this takes concentration. A whole lot more concentration than it takes Johnny to not be a stationary target and smack the popsicle in the face with a well-tossed fireball, taking him down and out for the count. We're not going for a kill, we're going for a knockout, and Johnny KOs Iceman more often than not.

you see a post more along the lines as this one stated here was one that i was looking for and i thank you for taking the time to post it.

HOwever i still have reservations about a victory.

Granted iceman can be hurt by flames, however does he have the ability at this instance to draw water molecules from the surrounding area to regenerate or survive as other forms of states of matter?

i understand that drake doesn't have the means and experience or perhaps imagination to go on an all attack and johnny may be well capable of that. My concerns are that if ambient defence mechanisms are kicked in (knee jerk reactions) by Bobby, then what does johnny have as a means of taking victory.

any direct physical attack would have bobby regenerating and any heat based attack would just have bobby becoming far harder to detect and move around.

or if you feel that such a bout wouldn't have bobby reverting to such desparate measures, bring that up as well?

I'm only looking for good reasoning here, i'm not looking to blindly defend or attack. As seen in another post earlier, i've defended johnny as well so i'm not character bias here.

 

[ProfeZZor X]

Granted iceman can be hurt by flames, however does he have the ability at this instance to draw water molecules from the surrounding area to regenerate or survive as other forms of states of matter?.

Why wouldn't he be able to collect moisture from the air now? He's been doing it for years. Just because his powers recently kicked back in doesn't mean that he's forgotten how to do it.

Remember when they went to China to rescue Xorn a few issues back, and they went up against the Chinese army? They shot him multiple times in the back, and he didn't shatter. He also didn't scream out in agonizing pain either, he just just used the humid environment to fill in his holes, and told Havok not to sweat it. Remember that? He also did some other amazing feats in that issue too (Fastball special with (the very heavy)Juggernaut, and he also grew 50 feet tall using water from the same river he was being drowned in by the Collective Man.

The only issue where he was in vapour form was in the X-Men Forever story arc. Since then, no writer has gone on to use the those abilities in other combat situations.... And by the way, Emma didn't teach him how to do any of those things.

 

[Cyclops]

No, Professor Ship did or something.

 

[ProfeZZor X]

No, Professor Ship did or something.

... I sense a bad joke.

All joking aside though, I think Iceman has had the short end of the stick when it comes to good character development writing. Compared to character changing stories of all of the original 5 X-men characters, his pales incomparison.... Even the late Marvel Girl gets more attention than he does now. Had his secondary mutation be for him to evaporate into a mist form, or become bigger, thicker and "cragglier" like the thing (with chunks of iceberg-like ice growing out like now), it could have opened up tons of story arcs.

 

[ProfeZZor X]

I wonder if both characters will be working together or against each other during the Civil War story arc.

 

[javon]

Is this a new thread because it sure wasn't here 45 minutes ago.

 

[Cyclops]

Yeah. You can tell just how new it is judging by the dates of each post.

 

[ProfeZZor X]

Is this a new thread because it sure wasn't here 45 minutes ago.

No, I was archiving through my old subscriptions and this was my very first posting on this website. And if you scroll back through the pages, you'll see that I was even more tenacious with defending Iceman than I was with you, HandOfFate, and Sebita. But also, I was reading an article saying that the X-Men will be involved with the Civil War story, as with the Fantastic Four. And the page that I saw had Johnny Storm in a hospital bed, suffering from injuries from an angry mob. So the topic of this thread made me wonder if Iceman and Torch will go up against each other. That would be a great show down...

 

[ProfeZZor X]

Yeah. You can tell just how new it is judging by the dates of each post.

Wow, I haven't seen you since I left this post. Hope all is well.

 

[javon]

No, I was archiving through my old subscriptions and this was my very first posting on this website. And if you scroll back through the pages, you'll see that I was even more tenacious with defending Iceman than I was with you, HandOfFate, and Sebita.

I never argued with you. I just sat back and looked at the information that I didn't know about her. And BELEIVE me, your not the only one that had to fight for your character.

 

[ProfeZZor X]

I never argued with you. I just sat back and looked at the information that I didn't know about her. And BELEIVE me, your not the only one that had to fight for your character.

Now what character would that be.......Hmmm?...j/k

 

[javon]

Lol.

 

[stormcloud03]

would you look at that it's a tie!

 

[CHObiWan]

I say the Torch. But this is an X-Men board so I think Bobbys gonna win anyway.

 

[ProfeZZor X]

I say the Torch. But this is an X-Men board so I think Bobbys gonna win anyway.

Pretty much bro....And would Torch be considered omega classwith hiscurrent power level?... Even IF he wasn't a mutant...

 

[Dynasty]

2 words...

Super Nova

 

[Dynasty]

just to make it a bit more well known, here you all go.

http://www.electricferret.com/fights/issue_157.htm

 

[Midnight Ice]

just to make it a bit more well known, here you all go.

http://www.electricferret.com/fights/issue_157.htm

And since Iceman just proved he can turn to steam and back into human form (as he did in the last issue of X-Men) I see no way the torch would end up winning. It would probably have to come down to a fist fight. I don't know who would win that.

 

[Fading]

Who said this was a survival match? Neither Johnny nor Bobby have any reason to kill the other, so why would they?

And before you say "They have no reason to fight each other either", superheroes fight each other all the time. But they don't KILL each other. Neither Bobby nor Johnny are killers, so I don't see any reason why life or death would be brought into it.

Your entire argument for Bobby winning seems to hinge on "If Johnny was trying to kill him, Bobby's survival instincts would kick in and he'd go ape**** nuts on him." But there's no reason for Bobby's survival instincts to go in because Johnny Storm is not a murderer.

He's capable of alot, yeah, but really... is he going to use these capabilities? Johnny could go supernova and KO Bobby with one hit. And he'd do it faster than Bobby could react. But I sincerely doubt that Johnny would go that far. Just like I sincerely doubt that Bobby would ever go as far as trying to kill Johnny Storm like you're suggesting he would.

Remember, the potential scope of one's powers is not necessarily what is going to be used in a fight. Remember - powerwise, most of Captain America's foes should have spanked him silly - yet every time, he comes out on top.

While both Johnny and Bobby are quite powerful in their own rights, Johnny's got the edge skillwise to put him over the top.

Thing that confuses me is you have Cyclops as an avatar, then seem to think Iceman only gained his powers when Frost took over his body. He displayed tons of powers before Emma took his body over. What's more you say that Bobby can't go to vapor, then say well he can but will never pull it off, then say that vs. fights aren't about someone using their full potential or something like that, then claim Torch will win in a second with Nova his ultimate move...contradictions galore...no offense.

Why would Bobby not be allowed to use his better techniques in your opinion, but Torch be able to use his best right off the bat. Also I don't see Iceman immediately making Torch a popcycle, more likely Torch is already lit up in the air when him and Bobby meet up, not sure why Torch would be in human form standing in front of Iceman for no reason.

I see the fight starting out as a test, both blast a few times, neithers stupid enough to waste all their energy at just seeing their opponent. They both blast eachother and cancel eachother out a few times, Bobby notices the heat more than Johnny, and Johnny gets over confident saying something like "Hot enough for ya" or something corny. They do a more powerful blast, and Iceman holds back the stream barely, as even tho it's just turning into vapor, Torch's heat is easily melting Iceman's blast. Torch tho probably knows little about Iceman's powers past he can generate Ice, Iceman on the other hand probably knows plenty about Johnny as Johnny is practically a celebrity in the MU and well known power wise. Iceman like said about probably wouldn't use all his powers or think to use them, just as doesn't web ppl in the eyes and punch them out blind everytime. He realizes a straight up ice vs fire blast test isn't going to win it for him. Torch is getting impatient and...eh nm, can't think of a good end to the scenario.

Point is I vote Iceman. Like said above when backed in a corner he lets more power leak out. His power is more unbeatable than Johnny's. Johnny's fire destroys, but doesn't protect Johnny outside of melting projectiles, which is why Hulk's sonic clap put the Torch out in another issue. Iceman on the other hand when in vapor form is untouchable, and really he doesn't have to concentrate to do it. When in ice form he is ice, when that ice is melted he's vapor, no difference, and no more thought than him being in ice form, he's just became a less tangible form of water. In vapor form Torch can go supernova and still not destroy that vapor. Basically Torch can out power Iceman, but Torch can't fully defeat Iceman. Torch can hold the upper hand for awhile, but can't deliver the final blow becomes Iceman can become untouchable, meanwhile Torch's power leaks out like a siv. After being Supernova Johnny's done for, and in human form. Iceman on the other hand is reforming from vapor and still fully powered. ONLY way I see Torch winning is if Iceman goes stupid for some reason and reverts to human form mid fight and gets torched, past that as long as Iceman is frosty, Torch just can't win. It's like trying to destroy butter with a knife, sure it cuts it easy, but that butter still exists even in separate pieces, even if you melt it it just becomes liquid and vapor. Same here, Iceman can be a puddle from Torch's heat, or vapor in the air, but Iceman's still alive and far from down, Torch runs out of juice, and virtually unijured Iceman reforms and ko's him.