The Dark Knight Rises Ideas For Incorporating Characters Into the Nolanverse

[Texas Zombie]

I had an idea earlier. The basics is that Deathstroke is a man that believes himself to be ra's al Ghul's reincarnation. He is both Ra's al Ghul and yet not Ra's al Ghul. He is pretty much the savior of shadows(jesus to the leagueoshadow). His mask is black and red. He has the ability to see in both eyes, but he believes he must not use one. An ancient league tablet says that a man who is both blind and omniscient(all seeing and knowing) will come to deliver the world from evil(think of it in terms of pharohs, ra's al ghul is born and reborn, and always a god). The assassin will strike the heart of genocide. He will be both man and god.

P.S. why hasn't anyone come up azrael or does everyone hate him?

 

[NHawk19]

To use an analogy, I'm more concerned with the motive than the means. Figure out the logical motive of the next villain, and then fit the means into the world Nolan created.

I think you've got something there. Figure out who fits into the arc best and that's probably your villian. I guess that means we go back to where does Batman go next. Redemption? Could Joker be the best fit next? What state was the story in when we left it?

 

[KalMart]

I think you've got something there. Figure out who fits into the arc best and that's probably your villian. I guess that means we go back to where does Batman go next. Redemption? If so we may be back to Joker.

Those are my concerns when it comes to the possibility of Catwoman. How would she not only fit in to, but also propel that arc like the villains have so far?

 

[Cunning Stunts]

If she's included in this series, I don't think she'll be a villain as much as she will be neutral.

 

[KalMart]

If she's included in this series, I don't think she'll be a villain as much as she will be neutral.

Regardless, what could Catwoman want that would provide the kind of high-stakes plots we've seen thus far? I think her being so 'independent' works against that a little bit.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

She's essentially an allied foil to Batman, and a love interest. If Black Mask is in this next film, I can most definitely see a little bit of inspiration from the comic in which Black Mask beat Catwoman down, probably during the final showdown.

 

[Jordacar]

I can easily see Catwoman as a really interesting central character, but I gave up a long time ago trying to imagine her as a menace big enough to drive the whole story. Let Riddler or Penguin or Black Mask or whoever fill in that role.

 

[KalMart]

I think Catwoman will require some serious reinterpretation to fit into the Nolan Batman world. I just wonder if the screen/story time is better used for characters/villains who fit what they're going for more inherently.

 

[StorminNorman]

Yes. After all, who has ever heard of thieves that happen to be attractive women? That's just too unrealistic.

 

[KalMart]

Yes. After all, who has ever heard of thieves that happen to be attractive women? That's just too unrealistic.

It's not that simple, and it's not just about 'realism'. How will she influence or dictate the unfolding of larger events and circumstances....aside form being a love interest?

Rachel was a love interest...but she was also a connection to Wayne's past, and a time before he became what he was....almost a beacon of hope for regaining that inner peace. And more importantly, her death is what really capped off Dent's character transformation into Two-Face, as well as further shared sense of loss between Wayne and Dent.

It'd be nice if Catwoman could at least be that significant to the story/character (albeit from a different angle)....along with being the love interest.

 

[StorminNorman]

It's not that simple, and it's not just about 'realism'. How will she influence or dictate the unfolding of larger events and circumstances....aside form being a love interest?

Rachel was a love interest...but she was also a connection to Wayne's past, and a time before he became what he was....almost a beacon of hope for regaining that inner peace. And more importantly, her death is what really capped off Dent's character transformation into Two-Face, as well as further shared sense of loss between Wayne and Dent.

It'd be nice if Catwoman could at least be that significant to the story/character (albeit from a different angle)....along with being the love interest.

Well I assume the next Batman movie will have a competent writer. Problem solved.

 

[BestGirl]

It's not that simple, and it's not just about 'realism'. How will she influence or dictate the unfolding of larger events and circumstances....aside form being a love interest?

Rachel was a love interest...but she was also a connection to Wayne's past, and a time before he became what he was....almost a beacon of hope for regaining that inner peace. And more importantly, her death is what really capped off Dent's character transformation into Two-Face, as well as further shared sense of loss between Wayne and Dent.

It'd be nice if Catwoman could at least be that significant to the story/character (albeit from a different angle)....along with being the love interest.

Let's see...Catwoman can challenge Batman's moral compass because she's a criminal and he should turn her in but can't bring himself to do it. She could tempt him to give up enforcing the law altogether and try to lure him into a life of crime like hers. That would be appealing to him because the cops are already making life hard on him. IOW, she would make his redemption even more difficult.

She could assist him in his battle against Riddler/Black Mask/whoever, thus becoming an anti-hero ally instead of a villain, and then she could break his heart by leaving him, transforming him into the colder, harder Batman from the comics. I don't know why she would leave him, maybe he makes an ultimatum that she has to give up her life of crime if she wants to be with him and she won't do it. I'm just tossing out ideas here.

 

[KalMart]

Let's see...Catwoman can challenge Batman's moral compass because she's a criminal and he should turn her in but can't bring himself to do it. She could tempt him to give up enforcing the law altogether and try to lure him into a life of crime like hers. That would be appealing to him because the cops are already making life hard on him. IOW, she would make his redemption even more difficult.

Interesting. But she'd never have a chance of luring him into a life of crime. He'd quit before doing that.

She could assist him in his battle against Riddler/Black Mask/whoever, thus becoming an anti-hero ally instead of a villain, and then she could break his heart by leaving him, transforming him into the colder, harder Batman from the comics. I don't know why she would leave him, maybe he makes an ultimatum that she has to give up her life of crime if she wants to be with him and she won't do it. I'm just tossing out ideas here.

I dunno about the team-up thing. I'd rather that she get caught up in a bigger battle between Batman and the crime underworld, and they put out a bounty on her head. Maybe he's trying to protect her in a way because he knows if she goes to jail, she'll be just as easily killed in there. But she refuses to lay low and stop what she's doing (why she's doing it will have to be worked out in the narrative). And he's one to talk, right? He didn't lay low when Joker was killing people off to get to him.

And so on.....

 

[KalMart]

Well I assume the next Batman movie will have a competent writer. Problem solved.

Given that we'd be open to giving the writer carte blanche in reinterpreting Catwoman for the story they want to do, it'd be step in the right direction. At the same time, if said competent writer would want to use another character and not Catwoman, would that be okay....him/her being competent and all?

 

[StorminNorman]

Given that we'd be open to giving the writer carte blanche in reinterpreting Catwoman for the story they want to do, it'd be step in the right direction. At the same time, if said competent writer would want to use another character and not Catwoman, would that be okay....him/her being competent and all?

For one, I am not entirely open to giving a writer carte blanche with Catwoman, nor would I be willing to give carte blanche to any villain. If you are going to use a character...use the character. Don't write an original character and give it a comic book name.

Sure. But as a writer for a Dark Knight sequel, one cannot forget that you are writing the follow up to...well...The Dark Knight. You are following a Joker/Two Face movie, so a focus on Black Mask, Firefly and KGBeast isn't going to cut it. You need A-Listers.

I, personally, think Catwoman is the best Batman rogue left and certainly the most mainstream. The Riddler and Penguin certainly are also known baddies, but they are also...kinda lame.

 

[KalMart]

For one, I am not entirely open to giving a writer carte blanche with Catwoman, nor would I be willing to give carte blanche to any villain. If you are going to use a character...use the character. Don't write an original character and give it a comic book name.

And that's one of the major hurdles that I could see with Catwoman in particular...especially if they go with the same writes as before. I think that there are other villains that more inherently suit the approach they're taking with these stories, and not just the 'realism'. that's why I'm saying if it turns out that the writers would feel that Catwoman would have to be modified to fit their approach/narrative, then it's better not to use her.

Same goes for any villain/character, of course, but I think Catwoman is one that's more up in the air than others.

Sure. But as a writer for a Dark Knight sequel, one cannot forget that you are writing the follow up to...well...The Dark Knight. You are following a Joker/Two Face movie, so a focus on Black Mask, Firefly and KGBeast isn't going to cut it. You need A-Listers.

I'm all for it, if said A-lister is a good fit in their opinion. At the same time, they could also have a story in which a 'B-Lister' could play an A-role rather nicely. The story should dictate that list on its own terms.

I, personally, think Catwoman is the best Batman rogue left and certainly the most mainstream. The Riddler and Penguin certainly are also known baddies, but they are also...kinda lame.

I think she might be the most interesting in terms of base concept, but not necessarily the most appropriate for these particular takes on Batman. I just don't think that she has a 'big' enough effect on things, for lack of a better term, to be the main villain (if that's what people want) like the last few. I can't see the fate of the entire city being directly affected by just her and what she's doing. But again, if there's a way to work her in as getting inadvertently caught up in a much bigger scenario with the main villain and Batman, it could work.

But then again, if the writers set up that bigger scenario, and don't feel that it needs Catwoman, I wouldn't want them to feel obligated to include her just because she's Catwoman....as with any character except maybe the Joker.

 

[StorminNorman]

And that's one of the major hurdles that I could see with Catwoman in particular...especially if they go with the same writes as before. I think that there are other villains that more inherently suit the approach they're taking with these stories, and not just the 'realism'. that's why I'm saying if it turns out that the writers would feel that Catwoman would have to be modified to fit their approach/narrative, then it's better not to use her.

I'm all for it, if said A-lister is a good fit in their opinion. At the same time, they could also have a story in which a 'B-Lister' could play an A-role rather nicely. The story should dictate that list on its own terms.

How so? I feel Catwoman is an ideal villain for several villains. For one, TDK touched upon the thin line between hero and something else - Catwoman further blurs the line and offers a real moral delima for Batman (being tempted to trust a criminal who may have a real emotional connection). Catwoman is just the sort of morally gray character I think Nolan could dominate with.

Plus, Batman is more isolated now than ever. With the GCPD on his tail, his biggest ally is rather restricted, and his other ally is dead. Not to mention the love of his life was blown up. Bruce Wayne has to be at this point an emotional wreck, add that with an unhealthy addiction to crime fighting and you have the need for a character who can understand the man and the mask. Enter Selina Kyle.

I think she might be the most interesting in terms of base concept, but not necessarily the most appropriate for these particular takes on Batman. I just don't think that she has a 'big' enough effect on things, for lack of a better term, to be the main villain (if that's what people want) like the last few. I can't see the fate of the entire city being directly affected by just her and what she's doing. But again, if there's a way to work her in as getting inadvertently caught up in a much bigger scenario with the main villain and Batman, it could work.

Who said anything about a main villain? Catwoman should never be shoehorned into simply the role of a villain. She works best in shades of gray.

But then again, if the writers set up that bigger scenario, and don't feel that it needs Catwoman, I wouldn't want them to feel obligated to include her just because she's Catwoman....as with any character except maybe the Joker.

I wouldn't want any character forced onto a story.

 

[KalMart]

How so? I feel Catwoman is an ideal villain for several villains. For one, TDK touched upon the thin line between hero and something else - Catwoman further blurs the line and offers a real moral delima for Batman (being tempted to trust a criminal who may have a real emotional connection). Catwoman is just the sort of morally gray character I think Nolan could dominate with.

The 'hero and something else' for the people of Gotham...what he means to them, not to himself. And whether there's grey area or not, it might not be worth doing a character study with someone who doesn't have an effect on the bigger scheme of the plot....regardless who they are in the comics. Her actions need to influence more than just Batman and herself. Otherwise, why would he trust her...how would trusting her help in his mission, unless they team up on his terms?

Plus, Batman is more isolated now than ever. With the GCPD on his tail, his biggest ally is rather restricted, and his other ally is dead.

All the reason to redeem himself with Gotham city by saving them again and working through this difficult time. That's what he's Batman for.

Not to mention the love of his life was blown up.

All the reason to concentrate on his purpose and not rebounding.

Bruce Wayne has to be at this point an emotional wreck, add that with an unhealthy addiction to crime fighting and you have the need for a character who can understand the man and the mask. Enter Selina Kyle.

I don't see this Batman as addicted to crimefighting, like being a thrillseeker. He does it because he believes it's right and that it's helping, and he was ready and willing to give it up if Dent had not been turned the way he was. Considering the high costs that you mentioned above, it should reinforce just how absolute and dedicated he has to be to that belief. If anyone truly understands and appreciates that, they'd have no desire to try and dissuade or 'turn' him....morally or otherwise. Only those who'd want to destroy that would....like Joker did.

Who said anything about a main villain? Catwoman should never be shoehorned into simply the role of a villain. She works best in shades of gray.

Some did...which is why I said 'If'. I'm still wondering if she can work in any capacity while staying 'faithful'. Again, this just might not be the right kind of story to use her in, if it presents the kind of stakes the last two did. Maybe she could get caught between things....but that sort of thing could also add 'fat' to the narrative. I like how Scarecrow was used in BB, but I know that some Scarecrow fans didn't like that he was a smaller player. You could see how if they tried to make that role heavier, it could have weighed things down.

I wouldn't want any character forced onto a story.

Well then , if she doesn't appear, hopefully people will be confident/thankful that the writers/filmmakers went with what they felt best about, and that she wasn't forced in just because she's Catwoman. Based on the last two films, I think Catwoman would require more 'forcing' than others, though. Croc too, but for some different reasons. It's gonna be a tough call.

 

[StorminNorman]

The 'hero and something else' for the people of Gotham...what he means to them, not to himself. And whether there's grey area or not, it might not be worth doing a character study with someone who doesn't have an effect on the bigger scheme of the plot....regardless who they are in the comics. Her actions need to influence more than just Batman and herself.

Why? Why does she have to influence the plot? Why can't she influence the plot in a similar way Alfred does? Or Rachel?

Otherwise, why would he trust her...how would trusting her help in his mission, unless they team up on his terms?

Again, a competent writer can make it work. Maybe Batman is overwelmed and he has no choice but to take a risk on her. Maybe he feels an emotional connection after some meeting. Again, there are many ways to do this in the hands of a competent writer.

All the reason to redeem himself with Gotham city by saving them again and working through this difficult time. That's what he's Batman for.

And I am not suggesting he do anything differently.

All the reason to concentrate on his purpose and not rebounding.

Isn't there an old saying about all work and no play? His purpose is compromised if he is is mentally affected by emotions. But your right, supressing all your emotions is a great way to ensure your own mental health - Bruce shouldn't worry about it at all.

I don't see this Batman as addicted to crimefighting, like being a thrillseeker. He does it because he believes it's right and that it's helping, and he was ready and willing to give it up if Dent had not been turned the way he was. Considering the high costs that you mentioned above, it should reinforce just how absolute and dedicated he has to be to that belief. If anyone truly understands and appreciates that, they'd have no desire to try and dissuade or 'turn' him....morally or otherwise. Only those who'd want to destroy that would....like Joker did.

And doesn't Catwoman go from thief to anti-hero?

Some did...which is why I said 'If'. I'm still wondering if she can work in any capacity while staying 'faithful'. Again, this just might not be the right kind of story to use her in, if it presents the kind of stakes the last two did. Maybe she could get caught between things....but that sort of thing could also add 'fat' to the narrative. I like how Scarecrow was used in BB, but I know that some Scarecrow fans didn't like that he was a smaller player. You could see how if they tried to make that role heavier, it could have weighed things down.

I am not suggesting making Catwoman the sole villain of the film. Since no single villain can fill the Jokers shoes, fill the movie up with baddies. You seem to feel that Catwoman can only be in the film if she is the sole antagonist. Nolan's history in the franchise suggests there will certainly be MANY villains.

Well then , if she doesn't appear, hopefully people will be confident/thankful that the writers/filmmakers went with what they felt best about, and that she wasn't forced in just because she's Catwoman. Based on the last two films, I think Catwoman would require more 'forcing' than others, though. Croc too, but for some different reasons. It's gonna be a tough call.

And I disagree. Again, we aren't talking about some two bit hacks - we are talking about skilled, professional writers. The idea that fitting a faithful Catwoman into a story is a stretch seems bizarre to me.

 

[KalMart]

Why? Why does she have to influence the plot? Why can't she influence the plot in a similar way Alfred does? Or Rachel?

Aside from being comparatively supporting roles, they represent him....the him they've both known all his life, and the him they know as both Wane and Batman. Can Catwoman be that? Why shouldn't she...or any new character...influence the plot?

Again, a competent writer can make it work.

But again, said competent writer may also recognize how the screentime may be better used with someone else. I'm saying it should be up to them, and they shouldn't feel obligated to use Catwoman because she's a traditional Batmamn character if they'd feel better using someone else.

Maybe Batman is overwelmed and he has no choice but to take a risk on her. Maybe he feels an emotional connection after some meeting. Again, there are many ways to do this in the hands of a competent writer.

I'm not saying they couldn't. I just think they might either have to make more narrative compromises to accommodate someone like Catwoman, or compromise the accuracy/faithfulness to her character to make her fit. I'm up for the latter if they really want to use her. But if they'd rather not, but feel obligated because she's Catwoman, I'd rather they didn't altogether.

And I am not suggesting he do anything differently.

Yet you suggested he trust a criminal.

Isn't there an old saying about all work and no play? His purpose is compromised if he is is mentally affected by emotions. But your right, supressing all your emotions is a great way to ensure your own mental health - Bruce shouldn't worry about it at all.

Or how about facing his emotions head-on...and dealing with them....as emotions...instead of deflecting them with distractions/thrill-seeking? I believe there's also and old saying like "It won't bring them back". I believe this is a Batman who..while not completely 'over' his parents death...is now doing what he does out of belief and duty, and not revenge. If that's what he wanted, he already got it in BB several times over. And now Joker's in Jail...from here on, his emotions are his emotions, not his M.O.. They could effect what he does along the way, but only after he's decided on what to do based on what he feels is right.

And doesn't Catwoman go from thief to anti-hero?

Who is she an anti-hero for? The poor...the socially oppressed....the innocent victims of crime or greed...or just herself?

I am not suggesting making Catwoman the sole villain of the film. Since no single villain can fill the Jokers shoes, fill the movie up with baddies. You seem to feel that Catwoman can only be in the film if she is the sole antagonist.

Quite the contrary, I don't think she could be the main antagonist...and I think it'd be difficult making her work as a supporting character in these particular approaches to Batman without making compromises that would negate a good part of the benefit of using her.

Nolan's history in the franchise suggests there will certainly be MANY villains.

But they may not all have to be the 'A-listers'. Was Maroni an A-lister? Maybe not, but he did run a crime family and propagate police corruption...rather important parts of TDK's plot, no? Where would a cat-burglar fit into something like that?

Heres one quick idea I had in mind...
Maybe she steals from the 'wrong guy', maybe like in TDK, the MOB starts taking out innocents to draw her out, and Batman tries to get her to turn herself in...but he's one to talk...and they both know she'll be killed in prison anyway. By bringing her in or forcing her to turn herself in, he's sentencing her to death at the hands of criminals, not the justice system...he's helping the criminals by 'doing what's right'. I think something like that could be a good start, in terms of his own dilemmas. But maybe that's too similar to TDK.

And I disagree. Again, we aren't talking about some two bit hacks - we are talking about skilled, professional writers. The idea that fitting a faithful Catwoman into a story is a stretch seems bizarre to me.

And like I said, part of being a skilled writer is also judgment and efficiency. Look at it as being a musician/composer. Someone may like to hear a certain instrument in a song, but that composer would rather not use it for the song they have in mind. They COULD if they absolutely HAD to, but they feel they could do a lot more with that song if they didn't have to bother trying to fit that instrument in. In this case, I'd rather leave it up to the composer to put together the best song they can with the instruments they want to use most.

But as it stands, I don't see Catwoman as so obvious of a choice as others that would probably better fit the kind of high-stakes crime stories that have made the last two movies as good as they were....even if she's not necessarily the villain. Plus, I'd like a character we haven't seen in any Batman movies before anyway.

 

[Darlton]

Hi everybody. Hello, Kal and Norman. I just wanted to say how good this debate is (no one insulting each other) and to add my 2 cents to the discussion. I’ll use Kal’s last post.

Aside from being comparatively supporting roles, they represent him....the him they've both known all his life, and the him they know as both Wane and Batman. Can Catwoman be that? Why shouldn't she...or any new character...influence the plot?

Well, I think you can look it in a different perspective. So far you’ve acknowledged Catwoman’s appeal to the public, but you’re wondering if she could fit the plot. Certainly, I think Nolan’s writing style so far has been about modeling the plot to strengthen the character’s traits and themes. With Harvey Dent, for instance, it was all about his transformation, and every plot or background decision was about making that theme more tragic… like making him a figure admired by Bruce, or making him stoic and idealized. His dark moment in the ally with Schief, or his specific reasons for flipping the coin before the accident, all were constructed or chosen for the plot with that theme in mind.
Likewise, every plot decision with the Joker was about strengthening his motif being a chaotic entity bent on creating havoc and corrupting people. His lack of origin, the lack of a ‘villain’s lair’ scene, him coming out of nowhere in every scene… all plot decisions primarily based on that particular interpretation of the character.

Which is why I think there’s absolutely no trouble with Catwoman. Her most traditional and popular themes really fit with the possibilities opened by TDK’s ending scene. It’s not about compromising the plot for the character design, but we can all agree that the plot is the most malleable part of a script and should be treated accordingly.

Aside But again, said competent writer may also recognize how the screentime may be better used with someone else. I'm saying it should be up to them, and they shouldn't feel obligated to use Catwoman because she's a traditional Batmamn character if they'd feel better using someone else.

IMHO, to this date, I haven’t heard about a better suited character for the next sequel than Catwoman. It’s arguable, of course, but she fits too well with Batman’s next phase as a crime-fighter, with all the things Norman has said about being rogue, isolated, despised by the public, and how the gray areas between law and crime are so rich and haven’t been properly explored in the series.

I'm not saying they couldn't. I just think they might either have to make more narrative compromises to accommodate someone like Catwoman, or compromise the accuracy/faithfulness to her character to make her fit. I'm up for the latter if they really want to use her. But if they'd rather not, but feel obligated because she's Catwoman, I'd rather they didn't altogether.

I think Catwoman is one of the few batman characters who require minimum changes to work in Nolan’s series. Really. What she would need would be a definition of her motives and some larger-than-usual goals in the film. But she should be what she’s always been in the comics: a rogue character, with polemic decisions and allegiances that can be changed at any time. Of course, she should have a strong personality and she and Batman should have a strong (and even unspoken) attraction.

To answer your question: Yes, she should be used because she’s popular simply that good. She’s better than most of the remaining Batman villains, and that’s because she opens many roads to explore in relation to Batman, both philosophical (their differing views on society) and emotional (their complicated relationship). And it’s useful to remember that, because we all know that replacing the Joker it’s going to be a next-to-impossible task for the writers and, like Norman, I think the only way to handle the next film is to fill the movie with several villains and make BATMAN the uncontestable central figure this time. We should focus in Gotham, of course, but this next movie should also be more about him, and Catwoman is ideal for exploring Batman’s psyche.

Yet you suggested he trust a criminal.

IMHO, he shouldn't trust her completely. But, at some points, he may either have no option, or she may gain aprt of his trust, and maybe they have to accomplish something together.

Or how about facing his emotions head-on...and dealing with them....as emotions...instead of deflecting them with distractions/thrill-seeking? I believe there's also and old saying like "It won't bring them back". I believe this is a Batman who..while not completely 'over' his parents death...is now doing what he does out of belief and duty, and not revenge. If that's what he wanted, he already got it in BB several times over. And now Joker's in Jail...from here on, his emotions are his emotions, not his M.O.. They could effect what he does along the way, but only after he's decided on what to do based on what he feels is right.

Batman is a human being. His emotions should be all over the place now that he is in a pretty severe crisis, shouldn't they? Well, that humanity and vulnerability should be heavily explored. He said he can take the heat, but if he can, then we have no conflict and no film is required to adress the aftermath of his decision to take the fall for Two-Face's crimes. No, all kinds of emotions should be resurfacing, like the grief over his parent's death (I'm looking forward to see a Wayne's grave scene) mixed with Rachel's death. And, let's face it, every big-budget hollywood movie hero needs a romantic interest. It makes for good character dynamic. And who better for this than Catwoman? Catwoman is, after all, Rachel Dawes' complete opposite. Think about that.

Who is she an anti-hero for? The poor...the socially oppressed....the innocent victims of crime or greed...or just herself?

IMHO... all of those. Maybe she is/was a bit of all of those people.

Quite the contrary, I don't think she could be the main antagonist...and I think it'd be difficult making her work as a supporting character in these particular approaches to Batman without making compromises that would negate a good part of the benefit of using her.

Agreed, she shouldn't be a total antagonist, because that betrays the character's greatest strength: being a rogue meant to explore gray areas.

And like I said, part of being a skilled writer is also judgment and efficiency. Look at it as being a musician/composer. Someone may like to hear a certain instrument in a song, but that composer would rather not use it for the song they have in mind. They COULD if they absolutely HAD to, but they feel they could do a lot more with that song if they didn't have to bother trying to fit that instrument in. In this case, I'd rather leave it up to the composer to put together the best song they can with the instruments they want to use most.

I believe there's a always a method to approach both music and adaptation-screenwriting. I think the method should be... themes and character design first, plot later.

But as it stands, I don't see Catwoman as so obvious of a choice as others that would probably better fit the kind of high-stakes crime stories that have made the last two movies as good as they were....even if she's not necessarily the villain. Plus, I'd like a character we haven't seen in any Batman movies before anyway.

I get your point. When it comes to the high-stake plans, she should be a main player, but not the driving force or the mastermind.

 

[KalMart]

I think more possibilities open up the more open we are to reinterpretations of her....as goes for any character. If that'll mean expanding/modifying her motives from what's in the comics, and if we trust these writers, you could hopefully end up with a Catwoman that speaks well for the source material, but is also distinct and unique to the kind of storytelling in these particular films.

At the same time, I could see these writers not wanting to use her, and I'd be fine with that too. These movies don't have to cover as many of the Batman rogues as possible. If they just stick with a few that work best for their approach, I think the cinematic benefits far outweigh the comic elements left out of them.

 

[KalMart]

Well, I think you can look it in a different perspective. So far you’ve acknowledged Catwoman’s appeal to the public, but you’re wondering if she could fit the plot. Certainly, I think Nolan’s writing style so far has been about modeling the plot to strengthen the character’s traits and themes. With Harvey Dent, for instance, it was all about his transformation, and every plot or background decision was about making that theme more tragic… like making him a figure admired by Bruce, or making him stoic and idealized. His dark moment in the ally with Schief, or his specific reasons for flipping the coin before the accident, all were constructed or chosen for the plot with that theme in mind.

Oh she definitely has appeal, again for various reasons as a concept...but at the same time I don't think people will suffer wthout her if what they do get is good. I don't see her inclusion as being as indispensable, of you will, as the Joker's. And yes, they've very smoothly worked their films to get the most out of their villains/characters, but at the same time, they have been characters that nicely fit the conflicts that the plots have presented....forces of crime/justice, corruption, social outlook, etc. And you really feel like history is changing with each story....things that happen in those stories will have a huge effect on everything to come...for everyone. I don't think Catwoman can be a main villain like that, and as an outsider or 'grey area' character, she might be better suited to something more periodical/episodic in comparison....or at least something that you can dedicate more of a 'slice of life' to, if you will.

Likewise, every plot decision with the Joker was about strengthening his motif being a chaotic entity bent on creating havoc and corrupting people. His lack of origin, the lack of a ‘villain’s lair’ scene, him coming out of nowhere in every scene… all plot decisions primarily based on that particular interpretation of the character.

And one that's just as intriguing to those both very familiar or unfamiliar with the character....at least on a level farther than the surface. I think Catwoman would need more than just the 'loner out for herself' angle that many are pushing....from both the plot involvement and their take on the character herself. Even with the added benefits of being a 'love interest'.

Which is why I think there’s absolutely no trouble with Catwoman. Her most traditional and popular themes really fit with the possibilities opened by TDK’s ending scene. It’s not about compromising the plot for the character design, but we can all agree that the plot is the most malleable part of a script and should be treated accordingly.

Well then they'd have to be more themes than what's presented here. Is she doing what she's doing for more than just herself? Is she making a statement that she wants others to be influenced by, etc.? Some say she doesn't have to...she may not have had to before, but she might have to here if they're going to use her. If that's something that'll have to be created by the writers, I say let them create it, but some fear it may be too contrived and not faithful to the character. It's a tough call.

IMHO, to this date, I haven’t heard about a better suited character for the next sequel than Catwoman. It’s arguable, of course, but she fits too well with Batman’s next phase as a crime-fighter, with all the things Norman has said about being rogue, isolated, despised by the public, and how the gray areas between law and crime are so rich and haven’t been properly explored in the series.

I really can't agree with her being the best fit for the 'next step', though. These things you mention above are already addressed with Batman, and I don't think he needs perspective on it...he's gotten and embodied that thus far. I think he's more than secure with what he is, what he needs is to get back in good standing with the people of Gotham so that it will inspire them again. I really don't see a need for self-reflection via someone else who's a lot like him. He needs to be able to change their outlook on him, not his on himself.

And I see that as being provided by the next plot, the next great conflict. Perhaps someone like Catwoman could add some extra seasoning to it, but narrative/screentime could also be better used for others that more directly affect the 'meat', so to speak.

I think Catwoman is one of the few batman characters who require minimum changes to work in Nolan’s series. Really. What she would need would be a definition of her motives and some larger-than-usual goals in the film. But she should be what she’s always been in the comics: a rogue character, with polemic decisions and allegiances that can be changed at any time. Of course, she should have a strong personality and she and Batman should have a strong (and even unspoken) attraction.

And if the writers feel that they'd want something more than that from her if they are going to use her....should they be encouraged to stretch out and create/reinterpret it, or should they use someone else who they feel already fits their motives more inherently? I really have a feeling that will come up if she's considered, and I hope their decision will be more influenced by the story at hand, rather than for the sake of using Catwoman because of her comic appeal/popularity. I think these filmmakers have earned that power of decision for these movies.

 

[elgato]

 

[KalMart]

To answer your question: Yes, she should be used because she’s popular simply that good.

I don't agree on that sole qualification in this case. If they feel some other less-popular character fits their scheme better than Catwoman, they should go with the other one for the sake of the story/film. That should more than make up for not going with the more popular choice....especially with the kind of popularity the franchise already has.

She’s better than most of the remaining Batman villains, and that’s because she opens many roads to explore in relation to Batman, both philosophical (their differing views on society) and emotional (their complicated relationship). And it’s useful to remember that, because we all know that replacing the Joker it’s going to be a next-to-impossible task for the writers and, like Norman, I think the only way to handle the next film is to fill the movie with several villains and make BATMAN the uncontestable central figure this time. We should focus in Gotham, of course, but this next movie should also be more about him, and Catwoman is ideal for exploring Batman’s psyche.

[/QUOTE]
Why do we need to explore his psyche more, though? I'd rather explore how he's going to deal with reestablishing his standing and importance with Gotham than who he is. Again, in more periodical/episodic formats with a more open-ended/less finite timeline, you can take some time out to do that....like with TV. But this has got to tell a bigger, more focused story in a shorter amount of time, so...again....her benefits may be better utilized elsewhere, as opposed to another character who's more of a direct criminal leader or what have you. At this point, it could even be a character created just for this story, but if it works better, then all the power to it.

IMHO, he shouldn't trust her completely. But, at some points, he may either have no option, or she may gain aprt of his trust, and maybe they have to accomplish something together.

Possibly, but it'd be more fun if their at constant odds, no?

Batman is a human being. His emotions should be all over the place now that he is in a pretty severe crisis, shouldn't they? Well, that humanity and vulnerability should be heavily explored. He said he can take the heat, but if he can, then we have no conflict and no film is required to adress the aftermath of his decision to take the fall for Two-Face's crimes.

He can take the heat for the benefit of the city's morale in the aftermath of the Joker's terror...the heat is the court of public opinion. But sooner or later, you have to believe that he wants to be seen as the good guy again...not just for his own ego, but to inspire the good people of the city not to give in to crime and intimidation. He realizes that there are sacrifices, and he wouldn't still be Batman if he didn't accept them, as devastating as they are. No, I don't see him questioning himself much more...as he wouldn't have made the decision he did at the end of TDK if he did struggle with that. Nor do I see him using his mission to compensate or 'work through' those emotions any more. Not saying he should be emotionally dead, but it shouldn't dictate his actions any more. And if they did, I don't Catwoman...or anyone else really...would be the key to it. He's got more important things on his plate.

No, all kinds of emotions should be resurfacing, like the grief over his parent's death (I'm looking forward to see a Wayne's grave scene)

Not quiet sold on that either. He could be there for a few minutes, just thinking and sitting quietly. But no crying or 'am I worthy' scenes, etc. He knows what he's doing is right. It could be nice if he finds peace in being there, instead of reliving the trauma.

mixed with Rachel's death. And, let's face it, every big-budget hollywood movie hero needs a romantic interest. It makes for good character dynamic. And who better for this than Catwoman? Catwoman is, after all, Rachel Dawes' complete opposite. Think about that.

What kind of 'love' would that be, then? If someone's still grieving over a dead girlfriend, and they get involved with someone who's just the opposite....are they really there just for that new person, or are they looking to get their mind off the dead one? Iit was hard enough for Wayne to maintain the possibility of he and Rachel having a future together. And she wanted Bruce...and only Bruce. If Catwoman wants only Batman.....how will that work?

<Wayne suiting up>
Alfred: Off to fight crime again, Master Bruce?

Batman: Nope....got a date.

????? t:

Maybe Catwoman lost someone recently as well, and they both acknowledge that they're finding solace in eachother....but then you're delving into some real soap opera territory. If Bats an Catwoman will have some romance thing going on, it should be playful/dangerous. But as we've acknowledged, he's probably still broken up over Rachel's death....not exactly playful-romance material. In fact, he'd be quite a drag.

IMHO... all of those. Maybe she is/was a bit of all of those people.

Maybe.

Agreed, she shouldn't be a total antagonist, because that betrays the character's greatest strength: being a rogue meant to explore gray areas.

I believe there's a always a method to approach both music and adaptation-screenwriting. I think the method should be... themes and character design first, plot later.

Not always, though. Sometimes you know if you want to write a jazz or opera piece, or something bombastic as opposed to something light and whimsical. A theme/melody approach to one may not work at all for another. Characters as well.

I get your point. When it comes to the high-stake plans, she should be a main player, but not the driving force or the mastermind.

Whew! Lots of stuff gone over. There's no definite right or wrong. But I hope the decision on Catwoman or not is one that's not taken lightly. I have to honestly say that even though I'd rather not see Catwoman, I'd still look forward to these filmmaker's interpretation....even if we knew it would be a 'different take'. Because I like their 'takes'.