I'm Reading Your Stuff: General News and Discussion Thread

[Sawyer]

 

[C Prometheus]

Exactly, I don't know why people take Reeves comment to mean that nothing fantastical can happen. I think his quote is encouring actually and what you laid out here is something that can be done which teeters on the edge of fantastical but remains "grounded" or gives the basis for being plausible.

It's like with Poison ivy, you don't need plant monsters, but you can make her highly resistant to plant toxins and give her the animated series motivations.

I think it's mainly because there's a certain number of fans who only want the fantastical and with no bars or compromises and see as anything less than that as inherently "wrong." Reeves' approach still allows room for interpretations of a good number of the most popular villains anyway, but characters like Man-Bat or the modern interpretation of Clayface as a literal giant mud monster are immediately and unequivocally off the table.

I think the other factor is that a lot of fans also want those fantastical characters, but also have zero faith in either the DCU as a whole taking off at this point or they believe that The Brave and the Bold just flat-out isn't going to be as good of a film as whatever Reeves and Pattinson make, so they inherently default to wanting to see that iteration of the character convert strictly to the vision they want to see happen, rather than acknowledge what Reeves has been saying about his vision for The Batman Epic Crime Saga for the past several years.

All of that said, while Reeves can absolutely ground a lot of the core Rogues Gallery villains in ways that fit with his world and vision, I think there's another key detail in this interview that seems to be getting lost in the mix that really needs to be considered; the ongoing and central theme to the entire saga is corruption and exploring how specifically Gotham City as a whole is the way that it is due to those fundamentally corrupt institutions that are in place.

My guess is the trajectory we're looking at here is probably along the following lines:

• Part 1 was about the legacy of corruption instilled in the city politics and leaders by Carmine Falcone, tied to the legacy of Thomas Wayne's moral lapse and how the other wealthy and affluent powers in the city exploited and weaponized Thomas' Gotham Renewal Fund for twenty years to further spread the gap between the Haves and the Have-Nots
• Part 2 will be about the Court of Owls and how Gotham's corruption has been in place from the start due to Old Money being a core aspect of the corruption from Part 1, with Falcone only being one notable part of a larger shadow influencing the city and potentially how the history of the Court ties back to other ancestors in Bruce's family tree, such as Alan Wayne or the Arkham family
• If the Court are the corruption in Part 2, then I believe that Part 3 will pivot forward and focus and explore the drastic ramifications of the vast history of corruption that Falcone, the Mobs and the Court all have seeded over the years, with the Freaks finally cementing themselves as a new generation of purer, more furious and vengeful criminals born out of that history and consuming the old guard of crime in Gotham City in the process, a la The Long Halloween and especially Dark Victory

 

[TheSmoothKnight]

(2:51 marked)

Whenever this topic is brought up, I always go back to this Jeffrey Wright interview from 4 years ago and I think outside of Reeves himself, Wright does the best job in explaining on what Reeves is doing with the grounded + fantastical in this universe.

 

[solidsnake86]

More than anything, Im just happy that Reeves seems to have a grasp on batman and isn't shy to explore Gotham. He also genuinely seems to be all in on this adaption and willing to explore it in different mediums as well. Half the time, directors seem to be one foot out the door or using it as a stepping stone to getting an Oscar.

Two more weeks until the penguin. It will be intriguing given his hint at the sequel script if something is also planted in the show. Potentially references to Arkham asylum and maybe this deeper corruption he alludes too.

 

[Mindreaper21]

I’ll admit this much. Originally, I was sort of against the Court of Owls showing up in this saga. The only reason being that the story is so deep that it should be built on from the very beginning, imo at least. Though, with the Penguin series and the latest comments from Matt, I can actually see how the Court could work.

For me, I didn’t take the Riddler’s “He Lies Still” card as anything more than an Easter egg. Though, now it has me thinking. Does Riddler actually know a lot more than he revealed? Were the events of the first film only part of Phase 1 of his entire plan? Is there a more obvious hint that the Court exists that was missed? That’s going to be really interesting to see.

The next film really could turn the fire up with what I’m thinking. You have Penguin confirmed to return. Hopefully, Two-Face and Hush shows up in this one too. Then revealing the Court having a hand in things we haven’t suspected.

This saga is packed. If this is truly the route Matt is going with this story, I know a lot a characters won’t make it. Though, this also makes me even more excited to see who does.

 

[Boom]

I'm still pretty meh on the Court.

 

[TheGDBatman]

I think Matt could do something exceptionally creepy and intriguing visually if the Court is involved. Their aesthetic would fit well into this universe.

 

[AndyTrevino]

Forgive my copium-induced ramblings, but what if The Court was mainly only tied to the past? Like, they're responsible for the current infrastructure but only just laid the groundwork however many decades ago and have died out, just part of the city's history now?

 

[Boom]

Jesse Plemons as Hush
Jesse Plemons as Talon
Jesse Plemons as Zsasz
Jesse Plemons as anybody idgaf

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Freeze 100% can work as a "teetering on the edge of fantasy" villain. Need to be subzero temperatures? Poikilothermia is a real condition where you can't regulate your body's temperature. All you have to do is give pre Freeze Victor the condition which means he has to try and bring his body temperature down to avoid complications with his health (but not to a Mr Freeze like extent) then use the chemicals in Mr Freeze's backstory to cause some type of mutation or exacerbation of his condition which leads to his body temp skyyrocketing and a requirement to wear a cold suit to survive. He wouldn't exactly die within minutes ala the comics, but he would slowly start getting sicker and sicker until he did pass away, hence the suit so Freeze can work without the time pressures. Combine him having poikilothermia to explain him being a cryogenics expert to tie into his whole backstory. The freeze gun? Reverse-engineered flamethrower that shoots liquid nitrogen which due to Freeze's cryogenics he knows exactly how to engineer it in a way that it causes similar damage to the comic style freeze gun.

Making Freeze more grounded is honestly not a very complicated process at all

Whether this "works" or not, the real question is why is any of this necessary when the DCU exists and we could get a comic book accurate Mr. Freeze in that universe without all of those hoops and concessions to make him "grounded"?

There is plenty of villains who are already "grounded" for Reeves to use in his "Epic Crime Saga" that would fit so much better.

 

[AndyTrevino]

Whether this "works" or not, the real question is why is any of this necessary when the DCU exists and we could get a comic book accurate Mr. Freeze in that universe without all of those hoops and concessions to make him "grounded"?

There is plenty of villains who are already "grounded" for Reeves to use in his "Epic Crime Saga" that would fit so much better.

Because the DCU will most likely be a bit more.....weightless and akin to your usual shlocky CBM than something like The Batman, especially considering Freeze feels exactly like the kind of humanistic character Reeves would write the **** out of, and his equipment or a version of it would compliment the horror vibes very well. I find it a very fun creative exercise to try and come up with all sorts of ways to make Freeze work in our world.

I'll take a beautifully-written character with weight and a few little changes made over the Arkhamverse Freeze come to life any day of the week, at least right now. ESPEEEEEECIALLY ESPECIALLY if Muschietti's still attached.

 

[solidsnake86]

Whether this "works" or not, the real question is why is any of this necessary when the DCU exists and we could get a comic book accurate Mr. Freeze in that universe without all of those hoops and concessions to make him "grounded"?

There is plenty of villains who are already "grounded" for Reeves to use in his "Epic Crime Saga" that would fit so much better.

I think we can all agree that there is a better chance of Reeves adapting his character better than the dcu can. Given what I saw in the flash, I see them doing something along the lines of batman and robin. Those batman scenes, imo, were horrendous that I thought I stepped back into the 90s. The real question is, would freeze even fit the narrative that Reeves is trying to tell in this saga. I don't know where you would put his character unless you introduce Gotham corp and tie it to that somehow.

With respect to the court of owls. I'll be honest, I never read the story because it didn't sound interesting to me and more of an after the fact trying to make things shocking. That said, with some adapting to screen it gives it some intrigue and for myself, I'm not tied to anything specific about them like other villains so it may make the story more interesting for myself.

 

[AndyTrevino]

I think we can all agree that there is a better chance of Reeves adapting his character better than the dcu can. Given what I saw in the flash, I see them doing something along the lines of batman and robin. Those batman scenes, imo, were horrendous that I thought I stepped back into the 90s. The real question is, would freeze even fit the narrative that Reeves is trying to tell in this saga. I don't know where you would put his character unless you introduce Gotham corp and tie it to that somehow.

I genuinely have no idea what people are huffing when they rave about those Batman scenes, but I want some!!!!

That Batfleck motorcycle/brick-cycle chase scene in particular is god awful, and quite frankly embarrassing after The Batman which came out just one year before.

 

[flickchick85]

Whether this "works" or not, the real question is why is any of this necessary when the DCU exists and we could get a comic book accurate Mr. Freeze in that universe without all of those hoops and concessions to make him "grounded"?

There is plenty of villains who are already "grounded" for Reeves to use in his "Epic Crime Saga" that would fit so much better.

The simple answer is I'd be more interested in Reeves' take on the character than just about anyone else's. Certainly more so than Andy Muschietti. What's "necessary" is irrelevant. We're talking about CBM's - none of it's "necessary." What matters is what's more interesting to see. And for me, that's 100% whatever Matt Reeves would do with the source material.

 

[solidsnake86]

I genuinely have no idea what people are huffing when they rave about those Batman scenes, but I want some!!!!

That Batfleck motorcycle/brick-cycle chase scene in particular is god awful, and quite frankly embarrassing after The Batman which came out just one year before.

Glad I'm not the only one, lol. I saw people raving about it online as the best batman action sequences ever and when I saw it, all I could think was, he was swinging around like spider-man. Batman should have some weight to him and never be a completely CG character in action scenes.

It was definitely a big step back in terms of action. To each their own I guess.

The rest of the penguin episode titles and times were just revealed.

EP 5 - Homecoming (54 mins)
EP 6 - Gold Summit (52 mins)
EP 7 - Top Hat (46 mins)
EP 8 - Great or Little Thing (1h 8m)

 

[flickchick85]

I genuinely have no idea what people are huffing when they rave about those Batman scenes, but I want some!!!!

That Batfleck motorcycle/brick-cycle chase scene in particular is god awful, and quite frankly embarrassing after The Batman which came out just one year before.

I resigned myself to the fact a long time ago that the very thing that turns me off about Snyder's visuals - the "video gamey" artifice of them - is exactly what his fans love about them. To me, his Batman action was pure "Arkham" game nonsense. But that's just what some fans want.

That's just why I have to crack up when those same fans are like, "he took a realistic approach to these characters and that's why people didn't like them." Uh, no folks, nothing about anything Zack Snyder has ever made is "realistic." Realism is the opposite of his whole vibe.

 

[AndyTrevino]

I think it's mainly because there's a certain number of fans who only want the fantastical and with no bars or compromises and see as anything less than that as inherently "wrong." Reeves' approach still allows room for interpretations of a good number of the most popular villains anyway, but characters like Man-Bat or the modern interpretation of Clayface as a literal giant mud monster are immediately and unequivocally off the table.

I think the other factor is that a lot of fans also want those fantastical characters, but also have zero faith in either the DCU as a whole taking off at this point or they believe that The Brave and the Bold just flat-out isn't going to be as good of a film as whatever Reeves and Pattinson make, so they inherently default to wanting to see that iteration of the character convert strictly to the vision they want to see happen, rather than acknowledge what Reeves has been saying about his vision for The Batman Epic Crime Saga for the past several years.

All of that said, while Reeves can absolutely ground a lot of the core Rogues Gallery villains in ways that fit with his world and vision, I think there's another key detail in this interview that seems to be getting lost in the mix that really needs to be considered; the ongoing and central theme to the entire saga is corruption and exploring how specifically Gotham City as a whole is the way that it is due to those fundamentally corrupt institutions that are in place.

My guess is the trajectory we're looking at here is probably along the following lines:

• Part 1 was about the legacy of corruption instilled in the city politics and leaders by Carmine Falcone, tied to the legacy of Thomas Wayne's moral lapse and how the other wealthy and affluent powers in the city exploited and weaponized Thomas' Gotham Renewal Fund for twenty years to further spread the gap between the Haves and the Have-Nots
• Part 2 will be about the Court of Owls and how Gotham's corruption has been in place from the start due to Old Money being a core aspect of the corruption from Part 1, with Falcone only being one notable part of a larger shadow influencing the city and potentially how the history of the Court ties back to other ancestors in Bruce's family tree, such as Alan Wayne or the Arkham family
• If the Court are the corruption in Part 2, then I believe that Part 3 will pivot forward and focus and explore the drastic ramifications of the vast history of corruption that Falcone, the Mobs and the Court all have seeded over the years, with the Freaks finally cementing themselves as a new generation of purer, more furious and vengeful criminals born out of that history and consuming the old guard of crime in Gotham City in the process, a la The Long Halloween and especially Dark Victory

This is the most compelling case I've seen for The Court yet. Obviously I'm still very much warming up to them and would still just rather have a Clayface story without the Owls' baggage, but I've always loved the imagery even though I haven't read the actual story yet.

 

[BatLobster]

Digging deeper into the corruption is what just feels like the inevitable direction for the sequel. It just seems like the way to make this story the most relevant to today and pay off the whole "epic crime saga" idea without this just being about like mob turf wars or w/e. I think they have to keep raising the question of “how deep does the rot in go”? Otherwise it’s just going to be case of the week. Whether it's the Court, or something else, I think the idea of some sort of secret society/cult that intersects with organized crime would fit this take like a glove. But yeah, if you’re looking to untapped pieces of the mythos, Court of Owls could make a lot of sense for this take IMO. The Black Glove is another option, or you could do some sort of composite that combines aspects of both of them. The first riddle in The Batman has an owl. I still don’t think that was just a happy accident.

Not to mention, this take on Batman is all about vibes. You’re not going to get much vibier and evocative than a creepy Eyes Wide Shut style secret society embedded within Gotham. Plus it could give something interesting for Bruce to do if he has to infiltrate it as part of his detective work.

 

[emielaen]

I think whatever Reeves does, it’ll be unique enough from the comic book counterparts to the point that even if you dislike the Court, it won’t make or break the film for you. Same thing if he includes Hush. He’ll make it his own.

 

[solidsnake86]

I think whatever Reeves does, it’ll be unique enough from the comic book counterparts to the point that even if you dislike the Court, it won’t make or break the film for you. Same thing if he includes Hush. He’ll make it his own.

For me the great thing is, whether it's hush or the court, they are newer villains that I am not so tied to the comic book origin that I am fine with any changes that are made.

It gets harder with characters that are older and you have a specific idea of what you would like to see. So when I hear about two-faced being adapted like earth one, I get more annoyed.

 

[C Prometheus]

Digging deeper into the corruption is what just feels like the inevitable direction for the sequel. It just seems like the way to make this story the most relevant to today and pay off the whole "epic crime saga" idea without this just being about like mob turf wars or w/e. I think they have to keep raising the question of “how deep does the rot in go”? Otherwise it’s just going to be case of the week. Whether it's the Court, or something else, I think the idea of some sort of secret society/cult that intersects with organized crime would fit this take like a glove. But yeah, if you’re looking to untapped pieces of the mythos, Court of Owls could make a lot of sense for this take IMO. The Black Glove is another option, or you could do some sort of composite that combines aspects of both of them. The first riddle in The Batman has an owl. I still don’t think that was just a happy accident.

Not to mention, this take on Batman is all about vibes. You’re not going to get much vibier and evocative than a creepy Eyes Wide Shut style secret society embedded within Gotham. Plus it could give something interesting for Bruce to do if he has to infiltrate it as part of his detective work.

Completely agreed. I've been very hesitant with the idea of Part II focusing on the Court, because I felt like it could easily undermine the story of the first film and feel needlessly repetitive, but there are absolutely ways to avoid that issue- and the more I've thought about it, the more easily I can see Reeves utilizing the Court in Part II while also tying in other characters in the mix too. Like I've said before, it's surprisingly easy to imagine Hush being amalgamated with Lincoln March, especially given what little we know about the Elliot family in this continuity and the orphanage from Part I.

Likewise, having the Court of Owls be the next main threat in Part II also potentially opens the door for Bruce visiting Haley's Circus and seeing a certain infamous performance of the Flying Graysons, especially if a big part of Part II's mystery involves Bruce tracking down the Court's use of human trafficking to build their army of Talons. Given how the Court were interested and already in the early stages of recruiting Dick Grayson as a potential Talon before Bruce interjected and adopted Dick after his parents' murder in the comics, I can definitely see Reeves keeping that in place here.

 

[DeadlyWest]

Whether this "works" or not, the real question is why is any of this necessary when the DCU exists and we could get a comic book accurate Mr. Freeze in that universe without all of those hoops and concessions to make him "grounded"?

There is plenty of villains who are already "grounded" for Reeves to use in his "Epic Crime Saga" that would fit so much better.

Because keeping the flashy big gun exactly as it appears in the panel is far less important to me than the image in my head of this tortured soul who found a way to turn all the pain and suffering he endures into something good, extending his hand with empathy and understanding to a desperate husband who just wants to save his wife.

I can live with the more extravergent aesthetic being put to the side if it means the core and soul of these characters can be done justice. Do I hope both can happen one day? Of course. But of the two I'd rather were focused on more, I'm taking the beating hearts of these broken people, who just don't want that to be their legacy and will go to extreme extents to right the biggest wrongs that happened in their lives, every single time.

 

[BatLobster]

Completely agreed. I've been very hesitant with the idea of Part II focusing on the Court, because I felt like it could easily undermine the story of the first film and feel needlessly repetitive, but there are absolutely ways to avoid that issue- and the more I've thought about it, the more easily I can see Reeves utilizing the Court in Part II while also tying in other characters in the mix too. Like I've said before, it's surprisingly easy to imagine Hush being amalgamated with Lincoln March, especially given what little we know about the Elliot family in this continuity and the orphanage from Part I.

Likewise, having the Court of Owls be the next main threat in Part II also potentially opens the door for Bruce visiting Haley's Circus and seeing a certain infamous performance of the Flying Graysons, especially if a big part of Part II's mystery involves Bruce tracking down the Court's use of human trafficking to build their army of Talons. Given how the Court were interested and already in the early stages of recruiting Dick Grayson as a potential Talon before Bruce interjected and adopted Dick after his parents' murder in the comics, I can definitely see Reeves keeping that in place here.

I mean...this honestly reads like a checklist of things I had been kinda hoping the first movie was going to be. So if this is the direction, I'd definitely be on board with that. Makes all the sense in the world IMO.


You know, if Reeves was indeed planning on adapting the Court, I wouldn't be surprised if he had consulted with Scott Snyder, so this could be a very telling tweet.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

IDK, for me there is something fundamentally more interesting about the mundanity of the conspiracy in The Batman vs The Court. But I also despise conspiracy theory tinged narratives, just a trope I cannot stand.

 

[BobJM]

Yeah yeah Colin Farrell’s coming back but what about Zoe?? Why is no one asking Reeves the important questions.