The Dark Knight In Heath We Trust: A Ledgerbration: The TDK Joker Appreciation Thread - Part 1

He pretty much outright is the Devil.

DING DING DING DING DIIIIIING !!!!


THAT'S THE FRIGGIN' POINT

"You ever dance with The Devil in the pale moonlight ? " isn't just a cool ass line, it also perfectly represents who The Joker really is. He's a corrupter of souls. He mocks human decency and morality . He's a trickster. He deceives , puts on an act of charm, uses people like puppets. He appears almost as if out of thin air.

He's the ****ing D E V I L.
 
He pretty much outright is the Devil. I guess that's an OK approach but I don't like the ideas that some people are pure evil and it doesn't matter why they went bad and we shouldn't try to understand them or reason with them.

Heath Ledger described Joker as a "psychopathic, mass murdering, schizophrenic clown with zero empathy". The Joker is meant to be seen as representing the worst that Gotham City has to offer and The Joker's argument is that anyone can become inhuman like him with the right circumstances which worked with Dent. The Joker as the Devil is pretty much accurate and I'm glad that Nolan/Ledger didn't attempt to humanise him.
 
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Just along those lines, if you felt that the Joker's intentions and motives weren't clear (which I feel they were to the fact of being bold and highlighted in dialogue), wouldn't that still be the fun part of the Joker? I've always thought that the unpredictably of the character is what made him so fascinating as opposed to the usual money,power, i'm better than you motif.
 
I do like the way he is portrayed as the devil. In many ways he does appear somewhat inhuman. He seems to materialise in the city with no definitive backstory and the intention of manipulating everyone around him to cause as much chaos as possible. The very notion this guy was ever once a regular person with a regular life and concerns seems incredible

I have been trying to pinpoint why he is my all time favourite movie villain beyond the obvious reasons of Heath's acting and immersion into the character and I think it's somewhat to do with the above. He is the Ying to the main character's yang but primarily he is someone that neither Bruce nor Gotham (apart from really Alfred) are really prepared for. Look at how so many shrug him off as a minor nuisance at the start and how much fear and control he gradually accumulates
 
I like that Alfred is the first person to realise that The Joker isn't just a regular criminal and that Bruce at first underestimated The Joker. Bruce has this idea that criminals "aren't complicated" but the Joker is different from the mobsters that he has faced. It's a scary thought that "Some men just wanna watch the world burn" as it could relate to the real life terrorists that are out there and that makes the Joker scary as he isn't after money or even power... he just wants to see Gotham burn in chaos.
 
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I know people probably come here as escapism from the recent DCverse and wanna look back on the good times, but....

That's another part of why Suicide Squad's characterization of Joker absolutely fails to me. Having Amanda Waller painted as " The Devil " and having Joker just be.... some lame gangsta guy who juss wans his hawey back is pretty lame.
 
The Gospel According To The Dark Knight

While Batman shows many other qualities of a Christ figure, the villains who roam the streets of Gotham also take on biblical roles that counter Christ and the church. The most prominent of these villains appears in the second of the three films, "The Dark Knight." The Joker, played by Heath Ledger, is one of the most well-known villains in the Batman Universe. His soul duty throughout any Batman story is to counter the moves of Batman, and bring chaos to the streets of Gotham. “… Gordon suggests that with the advent of a superhero representing order, it is inevitable that there will appear a supervillain representing chaos …” (Nichols, 246). In "The Dark Knight," the Joker is more evil than any of his previous incarnations, leading some scholars to compare him to Satan. “Some scholars have commented, regarding John Milton’s poem 'Paradise Lost,' that Satan is the most interesting character, much more so that Adam, Eve, the angels or Christ. In a similar way, the Joker is clearly the most interesting character in 'The Dark Knight,' and he is obviously a figurative version of Satan,” (Bellinger).

The viewer is given, from the beginning of the second film, a villain who is interesting, charismatic and immoral, peaking many peoples interest. Ledger’s Joker, of all the characters in "The Dark Knight" Trilogy, fits the criteria presented as a Satan figure. Take the idea that Satan can transform himself, or shapeshift. Throughout the course of the film "The Dark Knight," the Joker is able to transform himself several times. In his first scene, we see him with a clown mask as he works with other criminals to rob a bank. Once he has finished, he then transforms into his normal state, with green hair, white makeup and scars that form a smile around his mouth. He is also able to transform himself to look like a normal person, dressed as a police officer. Finally, while tempting Harvey Dent into a life of crime, the Joker has disguised himself as a nurse at the hospital where Dent is a patient.

Normally, a nurse is considered someone similar to an angel; their job is to help people, even save them. Yet, the Joker takes this image of an angelic person, and uses it for his own evil. This follows a scriptural verse presented in 2 Corinthians that is one of the few descriptions of Satan in the Bible. “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light,” (King James Version, 2 Cor 11:14). The color white is associated with light; the fact that the Joker is dressed as a nurse in a white uniform is symbolic of him being the Satan figure. Satan, who, in Genesis, is presented as taking the form of a serpent. For the Joker in "The Dark Knight" Trilogy, “Heath Ledger introduces a disturbing tic: his Joker’s tongue is frequently in motion, licking his lips, or darting out of his mouth. The affectation may call to mind the way a snake uses its tongue and snakes are, of course, associated with Satan,” (Porter, 15). Along with the multiple appearance that Ledger’s Joker is seen with throughout the film, he is extremely well dressed. “His high-quality purple suit and green vest are expensive, as several other characters note during the film,” (Porter, 15). It is more than just appearance that has lead scholars to view the joker as the Satan figure of "The Dark Knight" films.

The Joker's personality and actions are truly what make him the Satan figure of The Dark Knight universe. First of all, he is associated with fire. During a scene where the Joker is blowing up a hospital, “two reverse-tracking shots allow us to see him walking down the hall and away from the building, with explosions and fire behind him,” (Porter, 15-16). Fire is associated greatly with Satan and hell. The goal of Satan is to torment and bring chaos to the world. The joker, like Satan, uses fire to bring chaos and torment people. He uses fire to kill Rachel Dawes, as well as maim District Attorney Harvey Dent. His love of chaos is exemplified when he takes a pile of money and sets it ablaze. His goal is not to take money for his own use, but to bring chaos and fire to Gotham. Throughout the entirety of The Dark Knight, the Joker is shown with images of fire, which will most definitely bring chaos to the streets of Gotham.

The Joker is smart, though, as he carefully plans his every move, in order to bring the chaos that he wishes to inflict upon the city. He is even able to bring chaos into the minds of the viewer, as he gives different stories as to how he got his infamous scars throughout the course of "The Dark Knight." We, as the viewer, are left to figure out when or if he is telling the truth. Like the serpent of Genesis, we are left to discern that his information is false, and will bring more trouble to whoever he was talking to. His intelligence is exemplified in chaos, particularly when he threatens to blow up two ferries in Gotham harbor. One of the ferries was filled with regular, everyday people; the other was filled with criminals being moved to a different jail. Within each ferry there was a bomb, with the button to destroy it in the other ferry. The Joker states that he will spare the ferry that pushes the button, as long as they do it before midnight. If neither ferry pushes the button, he will destroy both ferries. The Joker is intelligent in an evil way, linking him to the Satan description presented by Milton. He is very good at manipulating people into doing what he wants, rarely failing at his plans.

Maybe the most compelling piece of evidence that the Joker is an allegory for Satan appears in his use of temptation to do evil. Take first, the ferry scene, in which the Joker has presented both ferries with the choice of destroying the other ferry, and sparing their own lives. The Joker falls into a very Hobbesian ideology, where humans are basically evil, and will do bad to help themselves. The people on the ferries prove the Joker and Hobbes wrong by neither of them pushing the button. This would seem to show that human nature is inertly good, yet in the film, this is not always true. Harvey Dent, who the Joker maims in an explosive fire, is tempted into taking revenge on the mafia, whom the Joker blames for the death of Rachel Dawes, and his own disfigurement. He goes on a rampage, set off by the Joker, and kills several members of the mafia and police force, before succumbing to his own death. Dent, unlike the prisoners and civilians on the ferries, chooses to willingly do evil.

Even the Christ figure of the film is tempted by the Joker. When interrogating the Joker, Batman is told by the villain that they are almost one in the same. They both resort to violence in order to achieve their own personal goals. Batman, under this realization debates whether to give up his role as the savior of Gotham, once again like Jesus is tempted by the devil during his exile (Nichols, 246). So what then is the film trying to convey about human nature? Are humans evil, like Dent or the Joker, or are people naturally good, like Commissioner Gordon? The film present a very biblical perspective as to the nature of humans; human beings are neither good nor evil, but display free will. “Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind …” (King James Version, 1 Pet 5:2). While the Joker and the other villains of Gotham City, as well as some of its civilians choose to do evil, humans as a whole in Gotham have a choice of whether to do good or evil.
 
I know people probably come here as escapism from the recent DCverse and wanna look back on the good times, but....

That's another part of why Suicide Squad's characterization of Joker absolutely fails to me. Having Amanda Waller painted as " The Devil " and having Joker just be.... some lame gangsta guy who juss wans his hawey back is pretty lame.

Leto!Joker feels like someone Ledger!Joker would have total scorn for, and whose hanging body would smack into the Mayor's office window.
 
Well let me put it this way.

If Nolan was more of a stickler for continuity, and his hair was a consistent length throughout the film, which look would be your preference?

I for one thought he looked best in the penthouse scene.

I like how he looks in the mob meeting and in the under construction building in his last section of the movie, in his full wardrobe and makeup, probably the most fully put-together "Joker-ish".

Though I also love this shot. This may be my single favorite image of him from the whole movie.

TheJoker131.png
 
So many great iconic looks. I think I settled on the mob scene as it was the most complete look, but as mentioned above....the jail scene, nurse joker, the list goes on.

 
'The Dark Knight': Maggie Gyllenhaal Recalls First Time Seeing Heath Ledger Play The Joker

During an interview on Watch What Happens Live with Andy Cohen, Academy Award-nominated actress Maggie Gyllenhaal remembered Heath Ledger’s performance as The Joker in Christopher Nolan’s The Dark Knight.

Ten years after The Dark Knight was released in theaters, Heath Ledger’s Academy Award-winning role as the Joker remains one of the most lauded performances in a comic book-based film. When asked about her favorite memory of working with the Heath Ledger on the DC film, Maggie Gyllenhaal recounted the first time she saw the late actor’s take on the iconic DC villain:

“I remember coming to work and seeing him – that scene where the Joker throws me off a roof – and seeing him come in and start to do what he was doing, which was the first time I saw it. I still think about this sometimes — it’s so hard to be good in a huge movie like that, that’s not about the acting, really. It’s so much easier to be good in a little tiny movie where it’s all about you.”

Maggie Gyllenhaal added that it’s possibly delivered a performance like Heath Ledger’s in a major Hollywood blockbuster:

“To be amazing like Heath was in a movie that’s got explosions and huge stunt scenes and big sets is a whole other thing. I don’t know if anyone’s ever, ever done that as well as he did in The Dark Knight.”
 
Aaron Eckhart Talks ‘Dark Knight’ Legacy

Meanwhile, one of Eckhart’s biggest hits, The Dark Knight, recently celebrated its 10th anniversary over the summer, as numerous stories reflected on the lasting legacy of the superhero film -- the second of Nolan's Batman trilogy -- in which the actor played Harvey Dent opposite Heath Ledger’s Joker and Christian Bale’s Bruce Wayne.

“I’m not surprised,” Eckhart says of the attention still surrounding the film, “because I think it is, in particular, the best of the genre. It launched the renaissance of the genre. It is all the characters in the storylines and the themes and the action that goes into it; it was unprecedented. Heath’s character set the world on fire. To this day -- I just saw a meme with the Joker face today -- it doesn’t go away. He is in the psyche of the world and I don’t know if any other characters have really done that.”

While the Joker’s story is being revisited in a new film by Todd Phillips with Joaquin Phoenix taking over the titular role, Eckhart has no intention of returning to the world of Two-Face -- either on film or as part of DC Comics’ new streaming service DC Universe, which has multiple original series in development.

“That’s something that I’ve done, and I’m too old for that,” Eckhart says, adding: “But I was very, very proud and honored to be part of that.”
 
An Oral History of The Dark Knight’s Pencil Trick

Richard Ryan (stunt coordinator): It was scripted that [Heath Ledger] would slam the pencil in and then one of the henchmen[played by Charles Jarman] would walk up, and Heath would slam his head into the table with the pencil going into his eye.

Nathan Crowley (production designer): Everyone was like, “Oh, how are we going to do it?” There are always loads of meetings and people wanting to do prosthetic stuff.

Ryan: There was talk of it being a CGI pencil. Would the whole thing be a visual-effects gag?

Nick Davis (visual effects supervisor): I think even Chris [Nolan] assumed we were going to have to do some CG. It’s not particularly difficult to build a CG pencil and track it in and kinda make it disappear out. But we shot it in IMAX, so you see it on a giant, great, big canvas. Wherever possible, we tried not to do unnecessary visual effects shots because, digitally, you can never really re-create an IMAX image.

Wally Pfister (cinematographer): There was no trick pencil. There was no pencil when his head hit the table so there is no place it’s disappearing into. There was nothing there when his head hits the table.

Crowley: At the end of the day, you just shoot it twice: one with the pencil and one without the pencil. Then the edit does its magic. The previous film Chris [Nolan] and I did was The Prestige. We spent like a year on this Prestigething learning magic tricks and how you do tricks of camera.

Jarman: I remember Christopher Nolan saying to me, “Look, we’re going to do a couple of shots where you need to be able to take that pencil away.” We did a couple of half-speed rehearsals just to get the hand action of my right hand sweeping across, taking the pencil as my body was going down, and my head striking the blank surface. It was a little hairy, because the pencil’s stuck in the table. If, for some reason, I didn’t get my hand in time, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Well, possibly through a Ouija board.

We did something like 22 takes over two days. We had two different tables. The table that most of the takes were done on was galvanized rubber, so the table itself was fairly solid, and had this half-centimeter of rubber over the top. Now, that was supposed to make it easier for the impact. We tried it first with a real table, and, I’ve got to tell you, I think the real table was a lot easier. It was thinner. It gave more. It did sting a little, but when you strike wood, because it is a table, the whole thing flexes, so there’s that give. Whereas the galvanized rubber table, because of its density, there was less give. It kind of felt like putting a towel over a brick wall, and running into it. Not that I’ve done that many times, but I can just use my imagination.

Pfister: I remember there were wrinkles in the padded table after his head hit it one or two times and we wanted to try and avoid seeing those.

Ritchie Coster (actor, the Chechen): The thing about that weekend was just seeing what Heath Ledger was doing. I’d not seen the makeup before until he stepped out to do the first take. He did this [stunt], and my immediate reaction was, “Oh, God. You’re not doing that, are you?” And then I’m like, “Oh, yeah. He is doing that.” And it’s ****ing brilliant.

Jarman: As we set the scene up, Heath Ledger was never in the room. I think it was part of his method acting. He would enter the room when he was being the Joker. He would leave the room being the Joker. It was a few days, and you just really didn’t see him in between, apart from the end when he did this kind of ceremonial handshake, and went around to everyone in the room. He was the consummate professional, stayed in character all the time. He only broke character once, which was when he first hit my head, and knocked me out.

Eric Roberts (actor, Sal Maroni): I had a physical reaction. I went, Oh, wow, oh, oh, okay, great, we got to do that! I thought it was real, at first. Like, Wow, wow, wow, something went wrong! It was that kind of reaction because it looked really good and really fast and it looked a little bit clumsy. So it’s like, Wait a minute, did it go right? And that’s how I felt watching it. But it was so cool to see it work because it did work. And it was nasty. It was freaking nasty.

Jarman: [I had] three [knockouts] that I can recount. My second day, my forehead came out to, I’d say, at least an inch from my head. The first [knockout] was for a couple of seconds, and I remember that daze and coming to. Because it was the first time, I didn’t want to mess the shot up. Heath actually asked me when I was coming to, saying, “Are you okay? Are you okay?” I was like, “Yeah, yeah, I’m good.” Then he slipped back into The Joker again.

Ryan: Heath was delivering great stuff.


Jarman: You think less of yourself and more about the shot. You suck it up, and you go again. As I’ve got older, I’ve realized I wouldn’t be doing it in the same way now. The room is full of all of your idols, you don’t want to mess things up. There are a lot of people relying on it. If I do it properly, if I do it right, then the shot can move on. The director’s happy. You want people to be happy with what you’ve done, your performance. So, you focus on that.

Ryan: Charles is a lovely man and he did exactly what was needed to make it work.

Jarman: There’s a thrill-seeking side to it, but there’s also the science of, how can we make this look as real as possible, and be as safe as possible? Given all the parameters, I believe we got there. There’s no avoiding the impact — how it’s set up, it’s going to happen. But if I had a similar job like that come up again, I would be looking at more breakaways, or doing it in such a way that you could avoid the impact and concussion. There are certain ways of cheating the shot, so that it can look just as violent, and just as dramatic. You just do it differently.

Pfister: It’s kind of shocking that The Dark Knight ended up being PG-13. All of Chris’s movies would be PG-13 to open it up to a wider audience. Somehow, he always had some magic with the MPAA. Lo and behold, he has the pencil and I’m like, “You are not getting the PG-13 with that. There’s no way this is going in. He’s driving this pencil through a guy’s head!” And I was wrong. Chris was always right, whether you liked it or not. You’d be like, “**** you, you were right again.” With this pencil trick, I thought, If it has the right amount of levity, we’ll sell this and it won’t come off as being violent but it’ll come off as being a magic trick and it’ll come off as being a punchline. And it was!
 
I still remember my theaters reaction to the pencil trick on opening night. 2 dudes behind me jumped out of their chair yelling because of how badass and unexpected it was haha. so iconic!!
 
Honestly, it happens so suddenly that if the MPAA made a stink about it, it would have been ridiculous even by their standards.
 
It's awesome that the pencil trick ultimately become this iconic Joker moment of the film. It was so Joker-ish and yet so unexpected, but it really set the stage for what we were about to experience with Heath's Joker throughout the rest of the film.
 
Pfister: It’s kind of shocking that The Dark Knight ended up being PG-13. All of Chris’s movies would be PG-13 to open it up to a wider audience. Somehow, he always had some magic with the MPAA. Lo and behold, he has the pencil and I’m like, “You are not getting the PG-13 with that. There’s no way this is going in. He’s driving this pencil through a guy’s head!” And I was wrong. Chris was always right, whether you liked it or not. You’d be like, “**** you, you were right again.” With this pencil trick, I thought, If it has the right amount of levity, we’ll sell this and it won’t come off as being violent but it’ll come off as being a magic trick and it’ll come off as being a punchline. And it was!

It's similar to Joker burning Lau alive on top of the money pile, which I didn't even notice until someone pointed it out to me. It skirts the MPAA's attention because it's barely noticeable.
 
It's similar to Joker burning Lau alive on top of the money pile, which I didn't even notice until someone pointed it out to me. It skirts the MPAA's attention because it's barely noticeable.
This! I seriously didn't notice that for a while. Isn't there a pic out there of it?
 
Nextflix team have good taste.
 

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