The Dark Knight In Heath We Trust: A Ledgerbration: The TDK Joker Appreciation Thread

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Don't even start that crap around here.

I think TDK's Joker was, even with its flaws, by far the most accurate live action representation of the Joker, and a damn fine representation of the character, period. And I'm not some bandwagon-jumping Hot Topic fanboy. I've been reading comics all my life, and have read more Joker stories than anyone I know.

I know the Joker. I know him well enough to realize that jokey get-ups (which...as others have illustrated, he had anyway, so there you go) and squirting flowers do not make the Joker.

His personality was as accurately defined as I could've possibly wanted. He was unpredictable. He was fearless, laughing in the face of pain and death. He was scary, capable of quickly silencing a party with just a few ominous gestures. He was twistedly funny, inciting more laughs from me personally than any version I've ever seen. He reveled in chaos. He reveled in tearing people down emotionally and psychologically, basically doing the same number on Dent (this time succeeding) that he tried to do in TKJ on Gordon. And, most importantly, he fancied Batman as essentially his life partner, his straight man with whom he will do the dance of death until the end.

That final element is what put TDK, in general and in terms of The Joker, head and shoulders above Batman. As much as I enjoy and appreciate that film, the Batman/Joker dynamic was broken down to two guys just trying to get rid of one another so they can move on. Batman was just a an annoying hurdle to get past in Joker's quest to...do whatever the heck he was doing. Killing the city and then retiring, I suppose.

Im sorry i dont see it at all

Nolan WROTE a great Joker, the best in live action for sure, (he was too smart in being able to run rings round everyone though) but (for me) Ledger produced a good interpretation but a one note performance that stood out more because it had the name Joker stamped on it, it has no rewatchability for me it goes in one direction and stays there. i have also read my fare share of Joker stories and still see the more traditional take of gas,whoppee cushoins ect to be the definite interpretation.

Recently i have just got into the FANTASTIC show Batman-the brave and the bold now that joker voiced by Jeff Bennet was amazingly done, sophisticated voice and demeanor and traditional weapons and sense of crazyness but snobbish "fans" will dismiss such an interpretation of joker and the toon as a whole seing it as "childish":whatever:.

TDK was a good movie but it isnt the be and end all for batman you love it? fine but i think it was a miss in key areas swapping a real mythos to rival the comics for convuluted inane dialouge, generation 2009 examples of badass:whatever: (gritty look and "realistic" tone).
 
lol...go with Brave and the Bold then...:hehe:



you've made it clear that harmless, silly, and yes, childish (that isn't a bad thing) Jokers are your cup of tea


a "one-note" performance? you're talking out of your ass and trying to act like a purist when you're actually just immature
 
lol...go with Brave and the Bold then...:hehe:



you've made it clear that harmless, silly, and yes, childish (that isn't a bad thing) Jokers are your cup of tea


a "one-note" performance? you're talking out of your ass and trying to act like a purist when you're actually just immature

:whatever:

This guy makes my point all to clearly.

As i said TDK has turned a lot of fans into being dismissive regarding the joker of the last 40+ years i have no problem with you liking ledger,like i said he was really good but imo was a one note PERFORMANCE (not the excellent way he was written as an agent of chaos) watch 10 minutes of his lip smacking and you get the idea for the rest of the movie, but to put down other interpretations as "harmless silly and childish"? thats TDK fanboyism speaking it is aimed at children but also has a slight adult humour older fans can respect if they give it a chance so there is no extreme violence but for a interpretation you do not need violence thats generation 2009 OMAGODITSBADAAAAAAASSSS speaking, you interpret completely dark and gritty coupled with explosions as the only way Batman or the joker can be credible I suppose Mark Hamil is silly also seeing as he is far closer in style to BATB then he is to Ledger?.

your the type of fan that just gets my goat but it is your opinion i suppose so its all good:word: The beauty of joker and the whole batman concept is that it can be viewed in many different forms some can be loved and some can be hated (honestly i have friends who think B&R is the best film in the franchise:wow:)

Oh and grow up and stop the insults, reply reasonably like other posters have i am better then you thats why i will not stoop to your level on this:yay:.



:csad::csad::csad:
 
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As i said TDK has turned a lot of fans into being dismissive regarding the joker of the last 40+ years i have no problem with you liking ledger,like i said he was really good but imo was a one note PERFORMANCE (not the excellent way he was written as an agent of chaos) watch 10 minutes of his lip smacking and you get the idea for the rest of the movie, but to put down other interpretations as "harmless silly and childish"? thats TDK fanboyism speaking it is aimed at children but also has a slight adult humour older fans can respect if they give it a chance so there is no extreme violence but for a interpretation you do not need violence thats generation 2009 OMAGODITSBADAAAAAAASSSS speaking, you interpret completely dark and gritty coupled with explosions as the only way Batman or the joker can be credible I suppose Mark Hamil is silly also seeing as he is far closer in style to BATB then he is to Ledger?.

No one is dismissing all the other incarnations of the Joker. Stop being so childishly defensive. Yes, the character has been interpreted in numerous ways throughout the years but that doesn't mean all of them are equally good. Some are clearly superior to the others, and have kind of set the benchmark for what many fans or even the general public wants the character to be. Ledger's Joker is not a completely new reinvention. He is clearly based heavily upon the very first Joker comics, The Killing Joke, The Man Who Laughs and even The Dark Knight Returns (though to a lesser degree) which were much more sadistic, violent and less 'goofy' versions than other interpretations. Even his looks (curved smiles, long purple trenchcoat with gloves) are undoubtedly influenced by Bermejo's Joker.

I think it's time you snap out of your bubble and realize that TDK fanboyism and Comics fanboyism are not mutually exclusive things. People loved TDK not because it was different from the comics but rather because it was an extremely well-made film that, despite slight deviations, still remained extremely faithful to its source material and embodied the very spirit of the comics.
 
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:whatever:

This guy makes my point all to clearly.

As i said TDK has turned a lot of fans into being dismissive regarding the joker of the last 40+ years i have no problem with you liking ledger,like i said he was really good but imo was a one note PERFORMANCE (not the excellent way he was written as an agent of chaos) watch 10 minutes of his lip smacking and you get the idea for the rest of the movie, but to put down other interpretations as "harmless silly and childish"? thats TDK fanboyism speaking it is aimed at children but also has a slight adult humour older fans can respect if they give it a chance so there is no extreme violence but for a interpretation you do not need violence thats generation 2009 OMAGODITSBADAAAAAAASSSS speaking, you interpret completely dark and gritty coupled with explosions as the only way Batman or the joker can be credible I suppose Mark Hamil is silly also seeing as he is far closer in style to BATB then he is to Ledger?.

your the type of fan that just gets my goat but it is your opinion i suppose so its all good:word: The beauty of joker and the whole batman concept is that it can be viewed in many different forms some can be loved and some can be hated (honestly i have friends who think B&R is the best film in the franchise:wow:)

Oh and grow up and stop the insults, reply reasonably like other posters have i am better then you thats why i will not stoop to your level on this:yay:.



:csad::csad::csad:


I just personally think you should take the argument elsewhere. This is a thread designed to celebrate Ledger and his performance, not how TDK's interpretation of the Joker failed to live up to 'your' expectations by being 'one-note'.

To be honest, I believe you are in the small minority when saying Ledger's performance was one-note. It was anything but that! People have already posted numerous youtube clips of various parts of Ledger's performance showing different sides to this psycho, and the guy ran with it...yet I don't believe you ever responded to those posts.

I doubt you're going to win many converts here, nor are we going to change you. But at this point, it really is beating a dead horse. :whatever:
 
What he's trying to say is, "We don't want your kind here. Only positive things about Ledger here. Now vamoose!".



:doom: :doom: :doom:
 
:whatever:
This guy makes my point all to clearly.
Read what's below, Damiean. Your incessant complaints about a 'one-note' performance is not what this thread is predicated on. If you've such a problem with the TDK Joker performance, then I hardly see why you're inclined to linger in a space premised upon praising it, when there are other outlets. Take it to the main Joker thread.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=291818
I just personally think you should take the argument elsewhere. This is a thread designed to celebrate Ledger and his performance, not how TDK's interpretation of the Joker failed to live up to 'your' expectations by being 'one-note'.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=291818
 
Read what's below, Damiean. Your incessant complaints about a 'one-note' performance is not what this thread is predicated on.

Damiean? As in Damiean Dark the formerly banned troll who was forever bashing these movies?

Surprise surprise!
 
I can't get over how great Heath's performance in TDK was. Even nearly a year later I still am at a loss for words as to how much I loved the performance.
 
Sorry to bump this up, but this was an article written in Vanity Fair titled 'The Last of Heath':

0908heathledger.jpg

Why was Heath Ledger so ambivalent about his own stardom, and what happened at the end of his life? Vanity Fair contributing editor Peter Biskind sheds new light on these difficult-to-answer questions as he writes about the actor’s remarkable talent and untimely death in the August cover story, “The Last of Heath.”

In his article, Biskind explores Ledger’s final movie role, his uncertainty about Hollywood, his devotion to his young daughter, and what happened in the days and weeks leading up to his death as he battled chronic insomnia, pneumonia, and exhaustion. Here are some of the revelations contained in Biskind’s story.

How he cleaned up his act
• Cinematographer Nicola Pecorini, who worked with Ledger on his last film, The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus, says Ledger “used to smoke marijuana on a regular basis, like probably 50 percent of Americans.” But after it became an issue, Ledger “went clean as a whistle.” And vocal coach Gerry Grennell, who worked and lived with the actor during the filming of The Dark Knight, says Ledger even stopped drinking: “Heath would happily go to the bar, buy a round of drinks for friends, and come back and have a soda or juice, never once drinking alcohol.”

How chronic insomnia may have led to his death
• Ledger’s use of sleeping medication to combat chronic insomnia at the end of his life was of more concern to Grennell. “I’d say, ‘If you can possibly bear it to stop taking the medications, do, because they don’t seem to be doing you any good.’ He agreed. It is very difficult for me to imagine how close he came to not taking them.”

Ledger would typically spend night after night awake, diverting himself with time killers, Biskind reports, such as re-arranging the furniture in whatever space he happened to be living in at the moment. Grennell coached him in the Alexander Technique, which helped him to sleep for a few hours at a time, but he still struggled.

“Everyone has a different view of how he passed away,” Grennell tells Biskind. “From my perspective, and knowing him as well as I did, and being around him as much as I was, it was a combination of exhaustion, sleeping medication … and perhaps the aftereffects of the flu. I guess his body just stopped breathing.”

How his marriage failed
• Terry Gilliam—Ledger’s friend and mentor, and the director of Doctor Parnassus—agrees with Pecorini that the romance between Ledger and Williams began to unravel during the Oscar campaign for Brokeback Mountain. “The whole machinery started growing up around them,” Gilliam says. “That was the moment when it changed, when he realized, Uh-oh. We perceive the world differently. He didn’t care about things like those awards.”

According to Pecorini, “Heath was always blaming himself [about the relationship], asking, What did I do wrong?” Adds Gilliam, “Because he’s a much nicer person than I am, he really thought he could do the right thing. He was trying to be decent and graceful, give her whatever she wanted—the house, every ****ing thing. But once it started going south, it went very quickly. He was overwhelmed by lawyers, and there were more and more of them, as if they were breeding. I said, ‘This is ********. Heath, just end it. Get out—it’s bad. You’ve got to just walk away from it.’ The stakes kept going up. He wouldn’t listen to any of us.”

As Ledger’s relationship with Williams unraveled, and the pair started dealing with lawyers and custody issues, according to Gilliam, Ledger fell apart. “The thing that really made Heath snap” was legal wrangling over his daughter, Matilda, Gilliam says. “He said, ‘Just **** all of you! I’m not giving Michelle anything.’” Recalls another source, when it came to Matilda’s care, “there were definitely heated conversations, and emotions were high.” (Ledger’s lawyer declined to comment on any aspect of the separation or custody dispute.)

His devotion to the job
• The strife in his personal life coincided with the shoot for Gilliam’s Parnassus, but rather than distract him from his work, Gilliam believes it helped him concentrate on the task at hand, he tells Biskind. He appeared one day on set “clearly bloody sick,” Gilliam says. The doctor told him it was the beginning of pneumonia and that he ought to take antibiotics and go home and rest. According to Gilliam, Ledger said, “No way. I’m not going to go home, because I can’t sleep, and I’ll be just thinking about the situation. I’d rather stay here and work.”

Although “he would arrive in the morning completely knackered,” Gilliam says, “by the end of the day he was beaming, glowing with energy. It was like everything was put into the work, because that was the joy; that’s what he loved to do. The words were just pouring out. It was like he was channeling.”

Ledger’s apathy for stardom
• Ledger’s friend and agent, Steven Alexander, tells Biskind that Heath “was always hesitant to be in a summer blockbuster, with the dolls and action figures and everything else that comes with one of those movies. He was afraid it would define him and limit his choices.” According to friends of Ledger’s, one of the reasons he agreed to do Dark Knight was that the unusually long shoot would give him an excuse to turn down other offers.

Alexander tells Biskind that Ledger had a pay-or-play deal on The Dark Knight—meaning he’d get compensated no matter what—so he felt he had the freedom to do whatever he wanted as the Joker. According to Pecorini, Ledger hoped his performance would be so far-out he’d be fired, and thus become the beneficiary of a lengthy, paid vacation.

“He was ready to bust out of the gate, but he didn’t want to step on the gas and become something that he didn’t want to become: a matinee idol,” says Alexander. “He was a private person, and he didn’t want to share his personal history with the press. It just wasn’t up for sale. That’s part of the reason he initially tore down his career. He wasn’t motivated by money or stardom, but by the respect of his peers, and for people to walk out of a movie theater after they’d seen something that he’d worked on and say, ‘Wow, he really disappeared into that character.’ He was striving to become an ‘illusionist,’ as he called it, able to create characters that weren’t there.”

The August issue of Vanity Fair hits newsstands in New York and Los Angeles on July 1 and nationally July 7.

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2009/06/why-was-heath-ledger-so.html
 
Sorry to bump this up, but this was an article written in Vanity Fair titled 'The Last of Heath':

0908heathledger.jpg

Why was Heath Ledger so ambivalent about his own stardom, and what happened at the end of his life? Vanity Fair contributing editor Peter Biskind sheds new light on these difficult-to-answer questions as he writes about the actor’s remarkable talent and untimely death in the August cover story, “The Last of Heath.”

--snip--

I was just about to post this! Thanks for sharing. :) And don't apologize for bumping the thread, that is why it's here for!

I'm so looking forward to buying the issue. Looks like Vanity Fair is using new unreleased pictures from the famous shoot they did of Heath in 2000. It's one of the most if not the most famous shoot and mag cover of his. The cover says "Heath Ledger: Hey, this guy is good!" No kidding! Preaching to the choir here, bud. :woot:

And seriously, how could it not be the most famous cover, considering how fantastic he looks on it? Frame-worthy! Not that other pics of his aren't, of course.

2000 cover:

oldvanity.jpg


And here's the cover of the upcoming issue (new pic!):

newvanity.jpg


Beautiful! Love how happy he looks.

The article (well, the portion that's been released) is very sad and more bitter than sweet in tone but the part about one of the reasons Heath took the role of the Joker cracked me up to no end! Heath thinking like: "Hey, TDK is a summer movie with a looong shoot and therefore a great way to sidetrack/ignore all the tiresome pestering from other movie makers who want me in their big summer tentpole films, too!" Clever, clever devil. *shakes finger* The Joker was his idea of getting away from everyone.

<3

The other thing that made me smile was him almost wanting to get fired off TDK because he'd get paid for the role anyway... Oh, Heath. "Now we're talkin'!" *laugh* Paid vacation indeed! Love his humour. Sadly, some people are getting it wrong and I've already seen comments elsewhere along the lines of "if that's how he chose his roles, he deserves a **** you". He was kidding! Note the "almost" in that line. Anyone with even a limited knowledge of Heath Ledger as an actor knows how seriously he took his work.

Looking at the new cover makes me wonder... There must be tons of unused pictures from this amazing shoot. I'd say the numbers are in the hundreds. Many people love the issue from 2000 because the pictures are the kind they like to remember him by. They're like a walk down memory lane both for Vanity Fair and the readers.

Vanity Fair wouldn't even have to write an article to accompany the pictures, honestly. The photos are some of the best and most care-free of Heath we've ever seen. It was from a time before the media sunk their claws into him and turned his life upside down. I'm looking forward to seeing these new shots. I own the 2000 mag and the 2009 issue looks like a nice companion piece.
 
It makes me sad to read about how he gave up alcohol and marijuana. I wish he would've given up pills. :csad:
 
Ledger’s apathy for stardom
• Ledger’s friend and agent, Steven Alexander, tells Biskind that Heath “was always hesitant to be in a summer blockbuster, with the dolls and action figures and everything else that comes with one of those movies. He was afraid it would define him and limit his choices.” According to friends of Ledger’s, one of the reasons he agreed to do Dark Knight was that the unusually long shoot would give him an excuse to turn down other offers.

Alexander tells Biskind that Ledger had a pay-or-play deal on The Dark Knight—meaning he’d get compensated no matter what—so he felt he had the freedom to do whatever he wanted as the Joker. According to Pecorini, Ledger hoped his performance would be so far-out he’d be fired, and thus become the beneficiary of a lengthy, paid vacation.

I find this hard to believe, considering the weeks he spent in his hotel room preparing for the role and even hiring a voice coach. It earned him an Academy Award and I think he'd be proud.
 
It makes me sad to read about how he gave up alcohol and marijuana. I wish he would've given up pills. :csad:

Yeah, I'm proud of him for beating those habits. Before that Heath was known for hitting the party scene and smoking a lot (though he still smoked during TDK filming, just cigarettes, but ditching marijuana was a great start) and Michelle was very different in that aspect, so their habits/interests clashed. Reading how hard he tried to make the relationship work despite their different lifestyles was both sweet and sad, knowing how it ended... And I'm sure Michelle did everything she could as well to make it last.

Heath must have been very, very heart-broken. I'm glad he had filming of Parnassus to focus his mind on, work's always a great way to relieve stress. Though that part in the article sounds more like work was a way of escape for him because he didn't want and couldn't deal with the pain of separation. He just pushed the thoughts away then and channelled his energy into something else. Doesn't sound like a longterm solution to me but I'm sure he and Michelle would have dealt with it again eventually.

I agree it's sad how close he was of completely dropping the pills he was taking for insomnia. To think he was about to drop them but took them that last day anyway because he desperately needed to sleep and had to be rested for a meeting with a friend later on, is just heart-breaking.

I find this hard to believe, considering the weeks he spent in his hotel room preparing for the role and even hiring a voice coach. It earned him an Academy Award and I think he'd be proud.

Yes, Heath was clearly joking and was at the moment probably a little fed up with all the attention. He wasn't the sort of person who'd mince words when he needed to bring something across. IMO there's no other way to interpret that line. It's just absurd. He also had a pretty quirky and often dark sense of humour and would speak up about the negative side of stardom and Hollywood (in this case agents hunting him for roles, him not getting a break from them when he needed it) quite a lot.

It doesn't surprise me he spoke again about the attention he was getting, especially to his own agent and friends! He must have been like: "Steven, keep those other directors away, I'll take the Joker role and drop under their radar for a while. Don't show me any scripts for months, I'm off!"

He was preparing for his directorial debut anyway. I'm sure even after TDK he'd have gone for that and not another big role. Sometime before he died he did say he'd disappear for a year or so after TDK and that newspapers would have to "beg him" for interviews on the Joker LOLZ. :woot: He knew he did something amazing with the role. The media used to have him in their hand, so to speak, like a little cage that he hated, but now Heath had the media in his. Secretly it must have felt rather good, I must say. :cwink:
 
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Ledger&#8217;s apathy for stardom
&#8226; Ledger&#8217;s friend and agent, Steven Alexander, tells Biskind that Heath &#8220;was always hesitant to be in a summer blockbuster, with the dolls and action figures and everything else that comes with one of those movies. He was afraid it would define him and limit his choices.&#8221; According to friends of Ledger&#8217;s, one of the reasons he agreed to do Dark Knight was that the unusually long shoot would give him an excuse to turn down other offers.

Alexander tells Biskind that Ledger had a pay-or-play deal on The Dark Knight&#8212;meaning he&#8217;d get compensated no matter what&#8212;so he felt he had the freedom to do whatever he wanted as the Joker. According to Pecorini, Ledger hoped his performance would be so far-out he&#8217;d be fired, and thus become the beneficiary of a lengthy, paid vacation.

I absolutely do not believe a word of that, at least not the second paragraph. His plan was to be fired so he could have a long vacation? What bollocks. Heath invested his heart and soul into the Joker. He was proud of what he did.
 
I absolutely do not believe a word of that, at least not the second paragraph. His plan was to be fired so he could have a long vacation? What bollocks. Heath invested his heart and soul into the Joker. He was proud of what he did.

He probably just said that as a joke. See Snoo's post above yours.
 
^ Oh sorry, yes I actually did see that but it didn't compute for some reason. LOL.
 
Ledger explains why he took the role of the Joker. He said he would not have accepted it if Tim Burton was directing it and why.

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He was proud of what he did.

Yep, called it the most fun he'd ever had as an actor. His sister said that when he went to Australia for Christmas vacation with his family, he told her that he knew he'd done a good job. She said that she could tell he was proud of it.
 
l468569365e526f.jpg


Words can't describe how much I love this picture of Ledger's Joker.

:hoboj:
 
i love how joker(and heath) had the self control to grow his fingernails out and also that his fingers have numerous scars and burns on them.
 
Scars and burns on his hands? That's just the make up smudged all over his hands.
 
Yep, the three make up colours are on his hands. Red, black, and white.
 
Im sorry i dont see it at all

Nolan WROTE a great Joker, the best in live action for sure, (he was too smart in being able to run rings round everyone though) but (for me) Ledger produced a good interpretation but a one note performance that stood out more because it had the name Joker stamped on it, it has no rewatchability for me it goes in one direction and stays there. i have also read my fare share of Joker stories and still see the more traditional take of gas,whoppee cushoins ect to be the definite interpretation.

Recently i have just got into the FANTASTIC show Batman-the brave and the bold now that joker voiced by Jeff Bennet was amazingly done, sophisticated voice and demeanor and traditional weapons and sense of crazyness but snobbish "fans" will dismiss such an interpretation of joker and the toon as a whole seing it as "childish":whatever:.

TDK was a good movie but it isnt the be and end all for batman you love it? fine but i think it was a miss in key areas swapping a real mythos to rival the comics for convuluted inane dialouge, generation 2009 examples of badass:whatever: (gritty look and "realistic" tone).

I don't really agree with anything you said. Also how is brave and the bold joker childish? In his first episode appearance he kills a security guard (technically offscreen) but you see him get joker venom'd which is fatal especially when batman is in another dimension and thus unable to cure you.
 
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