Is America still America?

[Kritish]

The point is....people who intentionaly post (or print, or say, or whatever...) something that they know will cause anger in others...just because they think it is funny.....are as bad as the people who riot over the posting.

There is a difference in the concept of "Freedom of Speach"....and the concept of "Freedom to insult Others".

Last time I check no there wasn't, I have just as much right to make a picture of Mohammed as he does to believe in Mohammed. That's how (atleast in America) things work.

 

[C. Lee]

Last time I check no there wasn't, I have just as much right to make a picture of Mohammed as he does to believe in Mohammed. That's how (atleast in America) things work.

I'm talking about the country of SHH......if people post things here just to cause trouble...they will be dealt with.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

The point is....people who intentionaly post (or print, or say, or whatever...) something that they know will cause anger in others...just because they think it is funny.....are as bad as the people who riot over the posting.

There is a difference in the concept of "Freedom of Speach"....and the concept of "Freedom to insult Others".

There's a sense in which such intentional antagonization can be a protest on behalf of Freedom of Thought and Speech.

Like, There are people who said the exact same thing during the Civil Rights Movement...

"Now I'm not a racist, and if Negroes want to use the proper channels to speak their mind, that's one thing.
But just walking into a cafe and sitting down at the Whites Only table, and refusing to leave....or sitting in the White section of the bus...or marching through All-White neighborhoods......They know exACTly what that's going to cause.
It's going to anger the Southern Whites, AND probably violence will ensue.
But they INTENTIONALLY do it anyway, knowing that it'll cause a problem, so they're just as bad as the racists.
They're ASKING for it."

Really, people said that.
Would we say that Blacks were free to protest and hold signs that were blatantly offensive to White racists, RIGHT in their faces...but that they SHOULDN'T have done it?


'Cause that's where I'm coming from.
I think it's preposterous and silly to believe in the giant, invisible imaginary friends who tell us exactly what we can and can't do.
And I think religious belief is responsible for many of the world's problems, including extreme violence.


And I should be able to draw and publish a cartoon that expresses M.Y. feelings on it.

And Muslims should be able to draw and publish a cartoon that expresses T.H.E.I.R. feelings on it.
That's equity.

And I won't kill them for disagreeing with me and saying so.

And they won't kill me for disagreeing an......oh wait.....they will.

 

[The Kid]

We don't need to become more self-righteous than we already are. America's self-righteousness is making us look like an ass in front of the entire world.

What Western society needs as a whole is to stop being such *****es to the facts. Don't stop teaching the Holocaust because one group is offended by it. Don't teach that idiotic "intelligent" design crap because the religous right is offended by evolution.

We shouldn't be afraid that our population is becomming more and more diverse.

We need to see that words are merely words. "Merry Christmas," "One Nation Under God," and "In God We Trust," should not be such a big f**king deal. There are other issues out there that are not petty. And need to actually be addressed. Things like the Iraq War, security, our civil rights, poverty, health care, Iran, America's role in an increasingly interdependent world with an increasingly Sino-Russian influence.

We need to stop getting our panties tied up into a knot everytime a new Grand Theft Auto comes out or Janet Jackson gets her boob exposed during the Super Bowl Halftime Show.

We need to stop forming double-standards on what is offensive and what is not. Apparently it's okay to do this:

But it's not okay for this:

what the hell is all that you typed into the thread? I agree though that everyone's getting too offended by everything now.

But back to righteousness. I didn't say this country needs to be come more righteous. I'm saying it needs to get back its head on straight. The America I knew had a clear deviding line between GOOD and EVIL. Now it's getting muddled in political bull crap and America to me is being seen as a country run by an idiot who's pulling strings like a puppet master from his thrown since no one has a clear idea whether this fight against terror in I-Rock was justified in the first place, which makes all its citizens look bad. I say sissy, because I think the pres is too much of a sissy to come forth and say he screwed up.

What I remember about America is that it had a lot of spirit. Not the biggest brain in the world, but it had the biggest spirit out of any country. I think that's gone now. It's become a shadow of that hardcore, badass cowboy gonna go kill some injuns, spirit I once admired.

 

[raybia]

Of say raybia, didn't see you'd responded...

As for Jesus' pacifism...you bring up a whole other topic, which is, the Bible is a load of bologna eaten through with hundreds of contradictions, a mess of disparate volumes compiled by men centuries after the fact for their own ends.

You present Jesus as a pacifist, but there are parts of the Bible that contradict that view. So if what you say is true, the correct perception of Jesus will always be conjecture.

However I don't think anyone disputes the facts that Mohammed was a warrior and Jesus was never in a physical war, and that when swords were raised to defend him, he rebuked his "defenders" and healed his attacker.
Mohammed used violence, including assassination, to defeat and convert men to Islam.

Yes, Mohammed fought in 3 wars. His was a spiritual mission as the first 13 years after becoming a Prophet he taught his people the religion. The only distrubances came went the Makkan leaders would verbal attack Mohammed and verbally and physically attack the fledging members that accepted Islam. In spite of this, Mohammed never retailated and any fashion nor did any of the Muslims at that time.

His first war came around the age of 53 when he and the early Muslims were the Meccan pagans put together a force of 1000 to destroy the Muslims were migrated from Makkan to Medina in order to escape persecution and live in peace. Mohammed and the Muslims were forced to gather to fight and composed a force of 300 against 1000. Even then, they only did so after they received the revelation from G-d commanding them to fight against the attackers.

However Mohammed and the new Muslim community never forced anyone to convert to Islam as compulsion in religion was forbidden by the Quran nor did Mohammed assassinate nor ordered the assassination of anyone.

Jesus converted people by teaching, persuasion, and example. He never used force, nor would He allow His disciples to use force, even when His enemies attacked Him.

So did Mohammed and thats a fact regardless of your rebuttal. I don't know if Jesus used force personally but I already presented from the bible were Jesus told his disciples to purchase swords to protect themselves. The rebuttal that there are inconsistencies in the Bible does not take away the fact that its there and doesn't prove that this particular verse is false.


But anyway,


Correct. And it's your opinion that it IS wrong.
And just like you can state your opinion as fact ("It IS wrong to mock Jesus.")
I can state mine as fact. ("It is NOT wrong.")

You can ride that merry-go-round all day long by yourself.

And you always bring up the numbers of believers, which I don't get.
Totally irrelevant.

Not my fault that you are not able to comprehend the signifance of the numbers I mention. A person in their right mind would merely have asked for clarification.

In Nazi Germany, the vast majority of people thought Jews were subhuman.
Does it somehow make them RIGHT?!?, because they had more people with that like belief?
Of course not.
In the Middle Ages, women were treated like property, like animals, and had no rights...by EVERYone.
Does that mean it was the RIGHT way to go about things?
At one time, 100% of the population thought the Earth was flat.

That just meant that 100% of the population was ignorant.
I have no automatic respect for what "Most" of the people believe.

This entire rant was made possible by the very fact that you would rather look for a reason to ***** than to seek to understand before trying to be understood. Since you are so off-based with these remarks, this is the only response it deserves.


Yes. It is disrespectful. I have no special respect for either figure and actively have NO respect for what their teachings have done to countless generations of people. So if I speak about either figure, or the beliefs they've spawned, it will be with "disprespect", as is appropriate....as appropriate as it is for you to speak with respect, since....you have it.

I'm happy that you can at least acknowledge that it is indeed disrespectful. Let your conscience be your guide.


I don't have respect for child molesters, and when I say, "That worthless inhuman dog should be tortured to death and raped for what he's done to that little defenseless girl."....people tend to have no problem with that lack of respect reflected in speech, beCAUSE, they agree.
Well, sorry, we don't all agree on who and what merits "respect". *shrug*

No we don't, but its not our responsibility to manage the affairs of each others. We have to manage our own life and actions. To each their own.


But again, you're stating a "fact" that isn't true.
You say that if mockery is allowed, it extends to believers and they are persecuted and discriminated against.
Nope. It CAN happen, but it's not the rule.

It can happen and it does happen, plain and simple and people need to be protected from it and its effects.

PLUS, people have used their religious beliefs to justify not only persecution and discrimination against non-believers, but even M.U.R.D.E.R..

Yes that is true and people have also used their religious beliefs to do alot of good in the world as well. I for one, will never advocate throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


So, by YOUR logic, religious belief is wrong, 'cause when people have too much reverence for religious mythology, it extends to those who do not share that reverence, and these non-believers are persecuted, discriminated against and murdered.


Flawed reasoning on your part due, in part, for merely wanting to spar than to engage into a real dialogue about this subject with an open mind.

Religious reverence is not the cause of persecution, murder, and discrimination, but it comes from a lack of reverence of G-d, ignorance of
divine guidance, and a perversion of man's original good nature among other things I'm sure.

LOL
You're funny.

Wilhelm, its always an adverture with you. You make the Hype fun!

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

What I remember about America is that it had a lot of spirit. Not the biggest brain in the world, but it had the biggest spirit out of any country.

What is "spirit"?

 

[raybia]

No one is making you look at pictures of Mohammed or Jesus. This is almost as stupid as the television debate.

And no one is making you post derogatory pictures of Mohammed or Jesus either.

The difference between me as a Western Muslim and those Muslims from the middle east and third world countries is that I know what the motive is of you and of others who do so and I refuse to be baited in.

Also, you are the wrong person to be calling anything stupid.

 

[The Kid]

What is "spirit"?

It's whatever got our arses to the moon first.

 

[raybia]

edit

 

[The Kid]

This makes me proud to be here on American soil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYb_mhiE-qU

Not this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVXMjYXSbMg

 

[Victarion]

what the hell is all that you typed into the thread? I agree though that everyone's getting too offended by everything now.

But back to righteousness. I didn't say this country needs to be come more righteous. I'm saying it needs to get back its head on straight. The America I knew had a clear deviding line between GOOD and EVIL. Now it's getting muddled in political bull crap and America to me is being seen as a country run by an idiot who's pulling strings like a puppet master from his thrown since no one has a clear idea whether this fight against terror in I-Rock was justified in the first place, which makes all its citizens look bad. I say sissy, because I think the pres is too much of a sissy to come forth and say he screwed up.

What I remember about America is that it had a lot of spirit. Not the biggest brain in the world, but it had the biggest spirit out of any country. I think that's gone now. It's become a shadow of that hardcore, badass cowboy gonna go kill some injuns, spirit I once admired.

Have a cigar! You earned it.

 

[The Kid]

Thank you. I'm not a smoker but I'll try anything once.

Here's a vid I found pretty interesting after searching for some JFK stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk9PldWmcwQ

It goes along with an interview I saw days ago on PBS. Some senator guy was talking about the same thing. Bottomline, Americans are tired of being lied to. They want the truth. I agreeeeeeee

I'm no expert about politics, but I realize it's better to not repeat the mistakes of our pasts. So with that in mind, I realize too that I'm not alone in wondering wtf is going on in the gov since it's trying its best to create a sequel to vietnam or whatever other type of war we fought fueled by some kind of political ambition. if someone who was around back then is willing to share their personal accounts on that war since I'm fuzzy on it, I'm willing to read 'em.

 

[Victarion]

You're welcome.

I don't think they're trying to create another war, rather than blowing things out of proportion.

 

[Triadkd]

Did a mod delete my white monority thread?