The Dark Knight Rises Is most of the criticism directed towards the movie fair?

[Human Torch]

Honestly,if this film were directed by anyone but Nolan,it would've been ravaged by fanboys worse than any comic film in history.

 

[BlueLantern]

On the contrary, it would be quite the opposite. If it was made by anyone else, the film would probably be appreciated even more.

Because Chris Nolan has set such high standards, specifically with The Dark Knight & Inception, this film was bound to be scrutinized more than it deserved.

It has flaws, though primarily in the first act. Poor editing here and there, the lack of depth to Bruce/Miranda's relationship coupled with a rushed feel to bringing us up to speed were my only complaints.

The reason Batman Begins & The Dark Knight were so highly revered by me were because they had stellar setups in the first act. The rest of both pictures then flowed flawlessly. Rises dropped the ball a bit in this matter.

The second act again could've served to depict the martial law in effect through Gotham in a slightly better way, with a greater focus on the common man, but it's acceptable that the story was told through the primary characters' eyes.

The rest of the film quite successfully stands on its merits and serves the trilogy extremely faithfully.

 

[BatLobster]

Honestly,if this film were directed by anyone but Nolan,it would've been ravaged by fanboys worse than any comic film in history.

That's a joke, right?

 

[Anno_Domini]

Honestly,if this film were directed by anyone but Nolan,it would've been ravaged by fanboys worse than any comic film in history.

So this is now the dumbass lines thread.

Welcome all!

 

[The Joker]

That and more focus on Bane, Catwoman, and Talia. My biggest gripe with the film is that I never gave a crap about Gotham's inhabitants in a movie where they faced their biggest threat. In TDK I feared the Joker because I thought he posed a legitimate threat to everyday people, TDKR didn't spend enough time with the everyday people to even make us care about the revolution. Some of my problems:

1. I just didn't buy Bane's motivation. I think it really undermines him as a villain that the only legitimate reason as to why he's doing all of this is because of a woman. I'm sure he would do a lot to protect her, but taking over a city? More time should have been spent giving him a plausible reason. I completely buy the Joker's motivations, and even to some extent Ra's (as crazy as they are), Bane wasn't a fully formed villain

2. As much as I love Hathaway's performance, she really is inconsequential to the movie. Take her out and there's not really much of a difference. Great character, deserved a lot more screentime

3. Talia. Motivated solely by revenge, boring as hell.

4. Where the hell was Gordon? Great character, I would have loved to see more scenes with he and Batman

This is what leads me to say that John Blake had WAY too much screentime. I understand that they had to develop him so the ending made sense, but I would rather he had been taken out all together than have him steal valuable screentime from more interesting characters

Agreed

Although I wouldn't call Catwoman inconsequential. More under used and under developed. Even then she was the best new character in the movie.

 

[Human Torch]

Hey,sometimes the truth hurts.t:

 

[Anno_Domini]

Hey,sometimes the truth hurts.t:

When it's the actual truth, sure.

 

[Doc Samson]

1. I just didn't buy Bane's motivation. I think it really undermines him as a villain that the only legitimate reason as to why he's doing all of this is because of a woman. I'm sure he would do a lot to protect her, but taking over a city? More time should have been spent giving him a plausible reason. I completely buy the Joker's motivations, and even to some extent Ra's (as crazy as they are), Bane wasn't a fully formed villain

I agree with most of your points except this, and every time I see it brought up around here I understand it even less. Where is it stated that Bane is doing all of this for her? When are we privy to their secret discussions about their plot for Gotham? Never.

How come in BR, BF, B&R, BB (and to a lesser extent TDK) we saw villains team up in some way shape or form, and it's fine, but in this case it's viewed as some type of lackey/underling relationship?

Crane & Falcone were working under and for Ras Al Ghul, it was explicitly told and shown that they were in fear of this man, and beneath him. It's shown in TDK that Dent is created, and somewhat psychologically shaped, by the Joker and his actions.

At no time in TDKR is either of these scenarios shown, implied or suggested in regards to Bane in relation to Talia. If anything it shows that they have a deep love and appreciation for each other in a sibling/father figure type of way. They're both trained and inducted into the LoS way of life, and after Ras Al Ghul dies at the hands of his "greatest student" they return to finish the job. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter if Gotham is seemingly cleaned up on the outside, hell, even if it was clean on the inside, its beside the point. Their leader, and father, was killed by a man from their own rank and file. Revenge plots may not be groundbreaking, but it is what it is.

Their plan is a multi-tiered one, there's no way Bane could've successfully gotten close enough to Wayne to gain access to the core without completely exposing himself prematurely unless he had some inside help. There's no way Talia could've captured Pavel, defeated Batman in hand to hand combat, and lock him away in order for the plan to commence without Bane. He saved her life, she returned to save his life. It's a partnership based on love, how this can be misconstrued as anything else is beyond me...

 

[BatLobster]

I agree with most of your points except this, and every time I see it brought up around here I understand it even less. Where is it stated that Bane is doing all of this for her? When are we privy to their secret discussions about their plot for Gotham? Never.

How come in BR, BF, B&R, BB (and to a lesser extent TDK) we saw villains team up in some way shape or form, and it's fine, but in this case it's viewed as some type of lackey/underling relationship?

Crane & Falcone were working under and for Ras Al Ghul, it was explicitly told and shown that they were in fear of this man, and beneath him. It's shown in TDK that Dent is created, and somewhat psychologically shaped, by the Joker and his actions.

At no time in TDKR is either of these scenarios shown, implied or suggested in regards to Bane in relation to Talia. If anything it shows that they have a deep love and appreciation for each other in a sibling/father figure type of way. They're both trained and inducted into the LoS way of life, and after Ras Al Ghul dies at the hands of his "greatest student" they return to finish the job. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter if Gotham is seemingly cleaned up on the outside, hell, even if it was clean on the inside, its beside the point. Their leader, and father, was killed by a man from their own rank and file. Revenge plots may not be groundbreaking, but it is what it is.

Their plan is a multi-tiered one, there's no way Bane could've successfully gotten close enough to Wayne to gain access to the core without completely exposing himself prematurely unless he had some inside help. There's no way Talia could've captured Pavel, defeated Batman in hand to hand combat, and lock him away in order for the plan to commence without Bane. He saved her life, she returned to save his life. It's a partnership based on love, how this can be misconstrued as anything else is beyond me...

Spot on.

 

[georgec]

I agree with most of your points except this, and every time I see it brought up around here I understand it even less. Where is it stated that Bane is doing all of this for her? When are we privy to their secret discussions about their plot for Gotham? Never.

How come in BR, BF, B&R, BB (and to a lesser extent TDK) we saw villains team up in some way shape or form, and it's fine, but in this case it's viewed as some type of lackey/underling relationship?

Crane & Falcone were working under and for Ras Al Ghul, it was explicitly told and shown that they were in fear of this man, and beneath him. It's shown in TDK that Dent is created, and somewhat psychologically shaped, by the Joker and his actions.

At no time in TDKR is either of these scenarios shown, implied or suggested in regards to Bane in relation to Talia. If anything it shows that they have a deep love and appreciation for each other in a sibling/father figure type of way. They're both trained and inducted into the LoS way of life, and after Ras Al Ghul dies at the hands of his "greatest student" they return to finish the job. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter if Gotham is seemingly cleaned up on the outside, hell, even if it was clean on the inside, its beside the point. Their leader, and father, was killed by a man from their own rank and file. Revenge plots may not be groundbreaking, but it is what it is.

Their plan is a multi-tiered one, there's no way Bane could've successfully gotten close enough to Wayne to gain access to the core without completely exposing himself prematurely unless he had some inside help. There's no way Talia could've captured Pavel, defeated Batman in hand to hand combat, and lock him away in order for the plan to commence without Bane. He saved her life, she returned to save his life. It's a partnership based on love, how this can be misconstrued as anything else is beyond me...

Please don't let logic get in the way of nitpicking.

 

[jmc]

I think of TDKR as like a mosaic of some of the more epic themes in cinema. Life/Death, Pain/Strength, Hope/Despair, War/Peace, Legacy, Rebirth...kind of the endless cycle of all these things and one one gives ''rise'' to the other.

Not all great films have a singular theme that can be boiled down to one word or sentence.

But they're just ideas, there's no payoff for any of them. It's all well and good for a film to have multiple themes going on but there's got to be some focus on at least one of those ideas otherwise all you're doing making things convoluted and bloated. You're left with a film full of ideas that are all fighting for attention and leaving people unsatisfied.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

There's a fantastic article that was posted on Nolanfans.com defending the movie that effectively rebuts more of Slashfilm's points.

http://www.nolanfans.com/2012/07/26/15-things-that-didnt-bother-us-about-the-dark-knight-rises/

-Vader

This. I think some people really get used to be too lazy to think. TDKR isn't even one of those movies but still there are people says "plot hole" to the things they can't understand.

Some people spend too much time to whining instead of figuring out.

 

[MAKAVELI25]

I agree with most of your points except this, and every time I see it brought up around here I understand it even less. Where is it stated that Bane is doing all of this for her? When are we privy to their secret discussions about their plot for Gotham? Never.

How come in BR, BF, B&R, BB (and to a lesser extent TDK) we saw villains team up in some way shape or form, and it's fine, but in this case it's viewed as some type of lackey/underling relationship?

Crane & Falcone were working under and for Ras Al Ghul, it was explicitly told and shown that they were in fear of this man, and beneath him. It's shown in TDK that Dent is created, and somewhat psychologically shaped, by the Joker and his actions.

At no time in TDKR is either of these scenarios shown, implied or suggested in regards to Bane in relation to Talia. If anything it shows that they have a deep love and appreciation for each other in a sibling/father figure type of way. They're both trained and inducted into the LoS way of life, and after Ras Al Ghul dies at the hands of his "greatest student" they return to finish the job. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter if Gotham is seemingly cleaned up on the outside, hell, even if it was clean on the inside, its beside the point. Their leader, and father, was killed by a man from their own rank and file. Revenge plots may not be groundbreaking, but it is what it is.

Their plan is a multi-tiered one, there's no way Bane could've successfully gotten close enough to Wayne to gain access to the core without completely exposing himself prematurely unless he had some inside help. There's no way Talia could've captured Pavel, defeated Batman in hand to hand combat, and lock him away in order for the plan to commence without Bane. He saved her life, she returned to save his life. It's a partnership based on love, how this can be misconstrued as anything else is beyond me...

But what reason other than Talia being there did Bane have to attack Gotham? Why would he even have loyalty for an organization that kicked him out? I don't mean to say Talia was his only motivation, but she is the only motivation shown. I think the movie would have benefited from showing why Bane would want to take over Gotham independent of Talia wanting him to. BB explained why a man like Bruce Wayne would have joined the League of Shadows, I would really have liked to see/understand what led to Bane embracing the principles

 

[Golgo-13]

hey when you meet and court Hayley Atwell can we share her?

NEVER!

 

[BatLobster]

But they're just ideas, there's no payoff for any of them. It's all well and good for a film to have multiple themes going on but there's got to be some focus on at least one of those ideas otherwise all you're doing making things convoluted and bloated. You're left with a film full of ideas that are all fighting for attention and leaving people unsatisfied.

But see, I think all those themes in fact relate to one another and form a larger theme: rising. And the rise theme comes into play in a number of ways across the film. The most remarkable of which would be the way it circles back to the theme of fear from Batman Begins and turns that on its head completely (Bruce must accept and reintegrate fear in order to emerge a new man). So while I agree this film is a bit more challenging than the previous two thematically, I think the broader scope of themes makes for a very rich story, fitting as a finale to a series that's already grappled with some big, heavy themes. Just my opinion though, and I respect yours.

But what reason other than Talia being there did Bane have to attack Gotham? Why would he even have loyalty for an organization that kicked him out? I don't mean to say Talia was his only motivation, but she is the only motivation shown. I think the movie would have benefited from showing why Bane would want to take over Gotham independent of Talia wanting him to. BB explained why a man like Bruce Wayne would have joined the League of Shadows, I would really have liked to see/understand what led to Bane embracing the principles

I thought Bane was given clear reasons to share the LOS ideals. He was basically born and raised in hell (I'll take him at his word there), he's suffered a great deal and hasn't really had any of the good things in life. I think his resulting disdain for the status quo was made clear ("Oh really, then why are you people here?" You think this gives you power...over me?"). It's no surprise then that he would sympathize with an organization that wants to strike at the heart of Western civilization and was probably the closest thing to a family he's had, despite being cast out.

 

[jmc]

But see, I think all those themes in fact relate to one another and form a larger theme: rising. And the rise theme comes into play in a number of ways across the film. The most remarkable of which would be the way it circles back to the theme of fear from Batman Begins and turns that on its head completely (Bruce must accept and reintegrate fear in order to emerge a new man). So while I agree this film is a bit more challenging than the previous two thematically, I think the broader scope of themes makes for a very rich story, fitting as a finale to a series that's already grappled with some big, heavy themes. Just my opinion though, and I respect yours.

Challenging? I'm sorry but TDKR is not challenging, it's thematically cluttered. You can't say to people who love not only the previous films in the series but Nolan entire catalog of work that we just don't get it, in fact I'll go so far to say those people are the one who would welcome a challenging film. The issue is this film isn't a challenge, it's sloppy, I can see the points people make in regards to the films themes linking, but that doesn't excuse how they are executed and that's what I find it boils down to - excuses. People are giving the film a free pass and justifying things are just flat out badly done, poorly written characters, cliched plot devices, plot twist etc, trying to make out this or that actually works if you really think about it and elevating the film to a level it frankly doesn't deserve.

 

[Doc Samson]

But what reason other than Talia being there did Bane have to attack Gotham? Why would he even have loyalty for an organization that kicked him out? I don't mean to say Talia was his only motivation, but she is the only motivation shown. I think the movie would have benefited from showing why Bane would want to take over Gotham independent of Talia wanting him to. BB explained why a man like Bruce Wayne would have joined the League of Shadows, I would really have liked to see/understand what led to Bane embracing the principles

The LoS rescued him from the Pit. He was only excommunicated later on, when he was deemed too radical:

(if you think about it, was there any scene in BB where Ras or any of the LoS used traditional weaponry? They were implied to be more of a clandestine ninja operation, using swords, martial arts, "theatricality & deception." Bane's men routinely tote firearms, even while he mostly doesn't, and obviously instead of a microwave emitter that will cause Gotham to eat itself through sheer panic and fear, Bane elects to use a nuclear weapon and just destroy the whole city blatantly. So I can see where Bane & Ras could clash over the delivery of their ideals)

So not only did they rescue him, they gave him a path, the same path offered to all members, thus giving him purpose.

 

[kvz5]

Talia said that Ra's kicked Bane out of the LoS because he reminded Ra's too much of his wife and what happened to her at the pit. So I think that bit about him being too radical for the LoS was just either Alfred's assumption or just one of the rumors surrounding Bane.

 

[Doc Samson]

Talia said that Ra's kicked Bane out of the LoS because he reminded Ra's too much of his wife and what happened to her at the pit. So I think that bit about him being too radical for the LoS was just either Alfred's assumption or just one of the rumors surrounding Bane.

True. But he also seemed to get especially irritated when Batman mentions it during there sewer fight. He didn't deny it, in fact his expression changes and he pauses to look at Batman for a split second before viciously laying into him with body shots.

Then he goes on to proclaim that he is the LoS now, seemingly to combat the notion that he wasn't qualified to be in their organization. It played to me almost like a big F you to Batman's statement, suggesting that not only am I good enough to be in LoS, now I'm the leader & living embodiment. So I think both issues could've been plausible reasons for his dismissal.

 

[kvz5]

I don't think he would deny it though regardless of whatever the reason was. I mean, the idea of being kicked out because you're too extreme even for the LoS sounds way more frightening and badass than being kicked out just because your presence reminds the leader of a bad memory.

 

[The Guard]

But they're just ideas, there's no payoff for any of them. It's all well and good for a film to have multiple themes going on but there's got to be some focus on at least one of those ideas otherwise all you're doing making things convoluted and bloated. You're left with a film full of ideas that are all fighting for attention and leaving people unsatisfied.

This is pretty much the long and the short of it. There are ideas introduced, and never truly explored in any remotely satisfying way. And some ideas are just forced into the film (IE, Bruce faking his death).

But what reason other than Talia being there did Bane have to attack Gotham? Why would he even have loyalty for an organization that kicked him out? I don't mean to say Talia was his only motivation, but she is the only motivation shown. I think the movie would have benefited from showing why Bane would want to take over Gotham independent of Talia wanting him to. BB explained why a man like Bruce Wayne would have joined the League of Shadows, I would really have liked to see/understand what led to Bane embracing the principles

Well, he did have some rather silly, illogical societal ideas which weren’t even his real motivations, but rather a lie he told Gotham to keep them under his thumb.

So...he was evil. That was his motivation. Being evil.

I thought Bane was given clear reasons to share the LOS ideals. He was basically born and raised in hell (I'll take him at his word there), he's suffered a great deal and hasn't really had any of the good things in life. I think his resulting disdain for the status quo was made clear ("Oh really, then why are you people here?" You think this gives you power...over me?"). It's no surprise then that he would sympathize with an organization that wants to strike at the heart of Western civilization and was probably the closest thing to a family he's had, despite being cast out.

And this is why Bane falls short as a lead character. There's this compelling idea/s presented, and then all but forgotten about halfway through the movie, and what it means in the context of the film is never explored in any real sense.

And ultimately, he appears to have no drive/ideals/motivations of his own, and is basically just a cog in the League of Shadows machine and an extension of both Ra's and Talia. And that would be fine if that wasn't all he is at heart beyond the very basics of his origin. He has derivative motivations from someone else, and he's evil because he's a terrorist. Compelling ideas, subpar execution of thematic exploration.

Challenging? I'm sorry but TDKR is not challenging, it's thematically cluttered. You can't say to people who love not only the previous films in the series but Nolan entire catalog of work that we just don't get it, in fact I'll go so far to say those people are the one who would welcome a challenging film. The issue is this film isn't a challenge, it's sloppy, I can see the points people make in regards to the films themes linking, but that doesn't excuse how they are executed and that's what I find it boils down to - excuses. People are giving the film a free pass and justifying things are just flat out badly done, poorly written characters, cliched plot devices, plot twist etc, trying to make out this or that actually works if you really think about it and elevating the film to a level it frankly doesn't deserve.

Again, this is about the long and the short of it.

I’m not even sure why the film bothered to mention Bane was excommunicated from the League of Shadows other than a few instances of plot convenience. That was an element in particular that wasn’t handled well at all.

The only way that it truly pays off is that Talia says she couldn’t forgive her father because of it, until Bruce killed it. Why this melodramatic mention of a father/daughter feud is shoved into the film when again, it is never explored, I don't know. A token nod at the nature of Talia in the comics, I guess.

And secondly, due to Alfred’s exposition about Bane being kicked out of the LOS, Bane is supposed to be presented to Bruce as dangerous. Which is redundant. He already should appear dangerous, because he’s a famous, feared mercenary.

Oh those Nolans and their melodrama.

 

[Doc Samson]

I don't think he would deny it though regardless of whatever the reason was. I mean, the idea of being kicked out because you're too extreme even for the LoS sounds way more frightening and badass than being kicked out just because your presence reminds the leader of a bad memory.

I agree, but if that's the case, why would he seem to get visibly angry about it, if it's not true?

 

[The Joker]

I agree, but if that's the case, why would he seem to get visibly angry about it, if it's not true?

Batman said "You were excommunicated by a gang of psychopaths". That is true. That's why he got angry. Batman touched a nerve.

 

[JackWhite]

Batman said "You were excommunicated by a gang of psychopaths". That is true. That's why he got angry. Batman touched a nerve.

The way Bane pauses for a second, as if to think "WTF did he just say?" then he hits Batman two times in rapid succession. Brilliant moment.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Bane seemed to be denying he was kicked out to Batman to me in his reply.

I get carried away making fun of the script. (edit: with additions)

BATMAN: Us? You were kicked out, chump.

BANE: I am the League of Shadows. Why would I be fulfilling the destiny of someone you were told by Alfred I was expelled by? Makes no sense. Can't explain that!

BATMAN: Bane is Ra's son. His heir. I am a dumbass that got misled by Bane. "Deshi Basara" is inspired by Bane's climb out of the pit as a child.

BLAKE: Someone sold us out and now the special forces guys are dead! Miranda, who I just ran off with, who do you think it could be?

MIRANDA: I'm just a pretty rich angel girl. Don't trouble me with thinking! You're the guy with orphan psychic abilities! Figure it out!

GORDON: No one has the trigger except Bane! No one! Certainly not the woman who will mislead me into thinking a decoy truck was the real bomb truck.

TALIA: I am Ra's child, you moron. The trigger is mine. "Rise?" that was all me. Choke on your red herrings. I'm tired of hiding, it's my show. Here's what we're going to do. Everyone stay silent.

BATMAN: I haven't given everything, not yet! Oh my gawd no autopilot! KABOOM!

BRUCE: Haha just kidding yous guys! Cappuccino?

BLAKE: I'm actually Robin.