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I don't think this Joker was in love with Harley at all.
I see it as him more in love with the idea of Harley. She's the ultimate gangsters moll... completely loyal and subservient to him. She'd do anything for him. She also feeds his ego and narcissm. He created her in his image. She represents his power of corruption.
He's obsessed with her. But in the way a child is obsessed with a toy. He's willing to discard her when it suits him, like when he leaves her for Batman so he can escape. But he loathes the idea of anyone else "playing" with her.
I could totally imagine this Joker sitting there cooking up schemes or doing business whilst Harley is trying to get his attention and him being annoyed by her, like in that BTAS episode.
I agree and I honestly think the laugh he came up with is perfect for this rendition. It manages to be different without Leto coming off as trying too hard.
I don't think this Joker was in love with Harley at all.
I see it as him more in love with the idea of Harley. She's the ultimate gangsters moll... completely loyal and subservient to him. She'd do anything for him. She also feeds his ego and narcissm. He created her in his image. She represents his power of corruption.
He's obsessed with her. But in the way a child is obsessed with a toy. He's willing to discard her when it suits him, like when he leaves her for Batman so he can escape. But he loathes the idea of anyone else "playing" with her.
I could totally imagine this Joker sitting there cooking up schemes or doing business whilst Harley is trying to get his attention and him being annoyed by her, like in that BTAS episode.
Its either a super insane obsession with a woman or love.
I mean from what we are given he is violently jealous and protective of her.
He will go against the gov't to get her back even when it inconveniences him.
When she gets dumped into the vat of acid he seems to regard her as his equal.
Almost died to protect her in fact except in the beginning which I guess counts against it
I know this is largely a complete reversal from the way its usually portrayed between them.
Its new but their scenes together are much more interesting this way than her being a doormat to him.
I don't think this Joker was in love with Harley at all.
I see it as him more in love with the idea of Harley. She's the ultimate gangsters moll... completely loyal and subservient to him. She'd do anything for him. She also feeds his ego and narcissm. He created her in his image. She represents his power of corruption.
He's obsessed with her. But in the way a child is obsessed with a toy. He's willing to discard her when it suits him, like when he leaves her for Batman so he can escape. But he loathes the idea of anyone else "playing" with her.
I could totally imagine this Joker sitting there cooking up schemes or doing business whilst Harley is trying to get his attention and him being annoyed by her, like in that BTAS episode.
This may be the dynamic that would eventually unfold in future installments but the movie, rather deliberately I feel, paints them as a pair. Waller calls Harley the queen to Joker's king, and that she is crazier. In the strip club while he's conducting business with Common's character, he's fixated on Harley and she becomes central to the talks. He goes back for her in the chemical wedding, he seemingly pushes her out of the helicopter to save her at his own expense. And he finally goes back for her towards the end.
The way it's presented in the movie she's central to his craziness.
where Harley dreams of a perfect life where she is married to the Joker with children,
, I would have enjoyed it, if the scene looked more like Joker and Harley(either older versions of their classic/TAS look or older versions of the Suicide Squad, instead of the actors similar to this
That is a slightly missed opportunity, to show even if they desired a normal life, she still loves and appreciates the turn her life took.
Now I wouldn't go as far as say David Ayer doesn't get or understand Joker and Harley's relationship, because based on some of the set footage, it seems that Joker's relationship with Harley was intended to be more similar to his comic counterpart, such as Joker smacking Harley and then quickly fixing himself afterwards. Even in the used footage of the movie, you could see bits of the Joker manipulations and selfishness in it(using Harley to get machine guns in order to orchestrate his escape before using electroshock therapy on her, leaving Harley in the hands of Batman despite her begging otherwise). But otherwise, I think it was mistake handling the relationship in the movie, such as they did as an Harley is the complete/only center of Joker's universe.
Now the Joker is a creature almost completely incapable of love, but it does seem that he is overtly obsessed with her for her and has shown on several occasions to have some resemblances to loving affection for Harley (Emperor Joker, No Man's Land: The Code) . But it isn't a relationship that should be romanticised and one-sided, as a completely loving and Bonnie and Clyde relationship.
Harley Quinn's first comic appearance, he was slowly growing fond of Harley, but his reactions to his newfound emotions
or the New 52 Harley/Joker
He does have a twisted attachment towards Harley but not in the way they depict it in the movie itself, could have been interesting (like willing to go to any lengths, including take on the government itself, in order to get Harley back when it's convenient), if it is evened out with the more classic abusive dysfunctional relationships and Harley breaking out of it.
According to three takes of people who were there at the start of Harley and Joker's relationship:
"He loves her as much as he can. He loves her in his way." -Paul Dini
"Expressing emotion in any way that's real and meaningful is alien to the Joker, but he's learning those parts of himself, however unconsciously, through Harley." -Mark Hamill
"Everyone else sees the Joker laugh; only Harley has ever seen him cry." - Arleen Sorkin
But make no mistake, despite showing a twisted obsession for him, I don't know if it can be classified as love, nor should it be defined as such, after most other media handled it otherwise.
As for Joker desire for money, for most versions, post Dennis O Neill/Neal Adams revival, I agree it doesn't hold as much importance to him. But then there are some (The New Batman Adventures/Superman TAS largely had Joker plots revolving around his desire and willingness to flaunt money, one of these episodes based on the fifties comic) have Joker truly show more desiring for money than say Jack Nicholson, Heath Ledger and Joker started off as a person who viewed money as a means to an end instead of actually caring if he's broke or not. But that goes to showing Mark Hamill as a versatile and well rounded Joker taking different elements and facets from different eras of the Joker's appearances.
That being said, despite being simply 10 minutes, he did desperately needed to have more of a presence, especially since he was sprinkled around the film like he was. Instead of just showing a regular mob boss(which is an interesting take and has some basis from the comics and other media). I would rather they really show his presence on Gotham is known(Ala Arkham Asylum/City, where he redesigns portions of Arkham in order to match his image, where his clubs have more of a Joker/anarchy feel, like the giant Joker playing card in the middle of the club, some comic quotes and lines written around the wall, etc). But for the most part it seems like a largely Brian Azzarello based Joker. Honestly I hated Assault on Arkham, Suicide Squad was slightly better than that movie.
Well yea in a way she completes him... but I still don't think he loves her in the traditional sense. It's a complex relationship that has a lot of potential.
Well yea in a way she completes him... but I still don't think he loves her in the traditional sense. It's a complex relationship that has a lot of potential.
Agreed, it's a shame that the movie didn't capture their complexity like the set photos and footage suggested it would have been unfortunately . Joker's fascination with Harley probably varies depending on moment and occasion. I remember this one fan page, gaging what Harley actually means to Joker and it brings up a lot of good points on the matter. http://harley-quinn.com/jokerharley/jokerharley2.php http://harley-quinn.com/jokerharley/jokerharley3.php (based on their posts describing Joker's thoughts and feelings for Harley, I can see it falling under a toy/mirror image, slightly loved one but not completely as a joke. (But I hated that line that she's crazier than him, some things need more showing than telling).
Paul Dini: "Somewhere deep down in whatever shrivelled up little nut he [The Joker] has for a heart, there might be a little bit of affection for her."
That being said, I would actually enjoy to see the footage in order guage if Jared Leto really should come back as Joker, honestly I know Jared probably has the potential to captivate(maybe he should watch Mark Hamill advice on how to handle Joker's laughter,especially being a musician himself
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Maybe under Ben Affleck, he will strike gold. I honestly thought he could have under Ayer. But the good news, with some general audience, including some friends of mines, thought Jared was good, just severely underused. My sister wasn't impressed are largely share my thoughts on the matter.
This Joker also seemed more trained in weapons and combat. Like I can't see Ledger and definitely not Nicholson showing up in tactical gear storming a prison. They would send people in first and just show up in normal clothes.
Well yea in a way she completes him... but I still don't think he loves her in the traditional sense. It's a complex relationship that has a lot of potential.
Him bolting on Harley, leaving her to die after the car crash rather than risk being captured, is probably a fair testament to this not being love in the traditional sense.
That's as opposed to Deadshot, who surrendered at the request of his daughter, real love.
But I'd agree, I was expecting something far more abusive. I'm sure we'll get that at some point. Maybe they wanted to establish Harley first as someone worth rooting for before showing the uglier side of their relationship.
I was half expecting Leto's Joker to be more horror movie like. After seeing the movie, it obviously wouldn't have worked with the tone and editing, but I think his look could work for a straight up horror flick. Like Arkham Asylum, but more dark and messed up. I could be completely off base, though. Maybe there is no redemption for Leto's Joker.
It's love in a Tumblr sense. He's the ultimate fantasy bad boy who wants her, wants her not. She willingly goes into his world with the ultimate aim of making him love her traditionally, [BLACKOUT]as seen in her mind's fantasy.[/BLACKOUT]
The kind of love projected between the pair in the movie is of a 50 Shades variety. Deliberately pitched so.
I don't think it's fair to decry Jared's Joker based on what he doesn't do, especially when we know the majority of his footage was cut out of the film. With the movie as-is, he doesn't do anything the Joker wouldn't. Yes, he spends the whole movie trying to get Harley back, but I don't remember it ever being stated that it's because he just can't bear to be without his love. Afterall, it was him abandoning her in the Joker mobile that caused their separation in the first place, and he didn't seem to be in any rush to get her back while she was in prison all that time.
I instead view it as (and suspect that the original intent was) the Joker not wanting Harley off doing her own thing and acting independently of him. Harley's whole arc is realising that she doesn't need Joker, and obviously he doesn't want that to happen; he wants to stifle her in order to keep her at his beck and call at all times (on his own terms, of course). He's trying to reign her back in under his control, which she interprets as her romantic hero coming to her rescue, and he knows it. It's all part of the manipulation.
The final scene of him breaking in to retrieve Harley may have been something added in the reshoots (no burnt face), but regardless, feels more like setup for the Batman solo with the line "Let's go home," in which case, Joker may specifically need Harley for his latest plan to wind up Batman, as again, time seems to have passed wherein Joker wasn't concerned with getting her back at any cost.
At any rate, I enjoyed and was fascinated by Jared's Joker. I can't wait for him to get the chance to show us the reasons behind all the creative choices they've made with this take, something he didn't get to do here with his limited screentime.
Yep, a Joker that isn't funny isn't the Joker. Heath had a sadistic humour but it was definitely there and an integral part of his performance.
The Pencil trick, wanting his ''phone call", "I kill the bus driver", "Let's not blow this out of proportion", "Very poor choice of words" all funny moments, dark but funny.
Hamill really played up the humour in the Animated Series and the Arkhamverse and at times he was legitimately hilarious, but the extreme danger was always there. Though his jokes split sides, the knife up his sleeve slit throats.
I didn't see the humour in Leto's performance. Maybe because most of his scenes were cut, but it wasn't there in the theatrical cut.
Should we be laughing at the Joker though? He's a monster. A child killer in some stories.
He should be despicable... yet charismatic and fascinating. But outside of Romero's and Hamil's I don't think we should be laughing along with him, unless it's an uncomfortable, shocked laugh.
Jokers popularity has always been disconcerting in some ways. People shouldn't be supporting this guy. He isn't supposed to be likeable. We shouldn't agree with his philosophies like some freaks did with Ledgers Joker. It kinda reminds me of Rorschach. People thought he was awesome and bad ass. They even supported his philosophy... when in reality Moore was dumbfounded because he intended Rorschach to be completely unlikeable.
Maybe a lot of Jokers scenes were cut because they did show a more abusive and nasty side to the character. Sides that WB don't want general movie goers to see.
Should we be laughing at the Joker though? He's a monster. A child killer in some stories.
He should be despicable... yet charismatic and fascinating. But outside of Romero's and Hamil's I don't think we should be laughing along with him, unless it's an uncomfortable, shocked laugh.
Jokers popularity has always been disconcerting in some ways. People shouldn't be supporting this guy. He isn't supposed to be likeable. We shouldn't agree with his philosophies like some freaks did with Ledgers Joker. It kinda reminds me of Rorschach. People thought he was awesome and bad ass. They even supported his philosophy... when in reality Moore was dumbfounded because he intended Rorschach to be completely unlikeable.
Maybe a lot of Jokers scenes were cut because they did show a more abusive and nasty side to the character. Sides that WB don't want general movie goers to see.
I don't think finding the Joker funny is the same thing as supporting him or his actions. An example off the top of my head, the film Four Lions is about a group of suicide bombers, but it's also hilarious.
I know it's been said 1000 times, but I just can NOT believe WB thought it was good to cut Joker's scenes down. They know FULL WELL that he is one of the best characters they have. What the **** went through their minds?
This is why I don't like the act Ayer is putting up. Yes, he's trying to save his career, but it also means we're never going to get to the bottom of it.
I actually prefer Ayer's politeness over Leto's rudeness. Leto shouldn't be so negatively outspoken the week your movie opens. I get an actor being annoyed that their scenes are cut, but when you have the director who was the guy who got ****ed the most keeping quiet and polite, the actor doesn't have that right. Leto is just coming off as a pouting brat. Don't throw things under the bus like that.
It doesn't help Leto is an ******* in general. Leto before the movie came out just came off as full of himself and I thought that this performance would just be him full of himself. He just acts like he's on a higher plane than anyone else at times. Leto's a great actor and still great casting, and I even saw the Joker there in the trailers at times, but but from what I hear and other things I saw, it looks like the trailer really did a great job of highlighting moments without context. It seems he just bought into his own hype and didn't have the right director to guide him to a point to something great. It kind of looks Leto had carte blanche with this. Worked for Ledger, not to much for Leto. It also helped Ledger had Nolan.
Leto has every right to be upset and say so. They had the audacity to spin the marketing around him after cutting his scenes. He had no idea his scenes were cut
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