I am not overeacting and i dont want to see Leto's joker again. damaged goods. He was not good by any stretch of the imagination as the Joker. fine as an overacting curiousity. but i suspect he will be back wearing a joker vest in big letters and damaged tattoo to bring that mystique back
Honestly can't say I blame you. They may improve him in a Batman solo, but that's all we ever seem to say now with bad or weak versions of these characters they keep serving up. Maybe such and such a character will be better in a future installment.
I really loved this Joker, and I can´t belive he´s so little in here!! I understand they had to cut his abusive scenes, but I need to see it!! Joker is one of my favorite characters ever, loved the music and overall atmosphere around him, but we have to see it all! Do you guys think we'll see an extended cut?
In essence it was more the material Leto was given I think. You can't really say he did a bad job if that's what they gave him to work with. Now Affleck may write him better as I suspect he knows the dynamic a little better than Ayer, who basically I think was just cherry picking stuff from the cartoons and comics.
In essence it was more the material Leto was given I think. You can't really say he did a bad job if that's what they gave him to work with. Now Affleck may write him better as I suspect he knows the dynamic a little better than Ayer, who basically I think was just cherry picking stuff from the cartoons and comics.
I kind of have to agree with you here. While Ayer is a very gifted director/writer, I think he was a bit out of his element here. I think James Wan would have also been a good choice to direct this movie. I think James could have pulled more creepiness out of Leto and done something really cool with Incubus...I was not a fan of Incubus at all. I would have rather had seen someone in full costume that the CGI mess we ended up with.
From what I saw in the movie, Leto was given nothing to work with AND I don't think he made very good decisions as an actor. It was a bad mix of both, if you ask me. Leto made some weird choices, here (like the purring ... wtf?).
I don't think we'll ever know exactly what was cut out from the movie, but I think it's very possible that keeping the Joker limited like this may have saved the character, considering the odd choices made. Joker had so little screentime here that I think they can "fix" the things that have gone wrong.
It's not like Eisenberg's Lex Luthor, at least (who is past the point of salvaging at this point). There's still time to fix a few things here and there for Mistah J.
I mean, first and foremost, Joker is a weirdo that revels in making people uncomfortable. He's gone from asexual to bisexual to straight homoerotic in some cases in the books.
I mean, first and foremost, Joker is a weirdo that revels in making people uncomfortable. He's gone from asexual to bisexual to straight homoerotic in some cases in the books.
I think he was good in the role but as mentioned above, he really didn't have enough material to work with in order to shine for the audience. The scene with the knife circle, for example, basically happened without any context or meaning to it. The Lambo scene was so short that it was over before you could appreciate what was happening on screen.
His coolest scene (in my opinion) was when [BLACKOUT]he was shooting at everyone and laughing from the helicopter[/BLACKOUT]. He looked like a really menacing Joker there.
I am all in for an Extended Cut of the film with all the Joker scenes that were removed from the TC. It will really improve him as a character and his story with Harley. They basically removed key scenes with those two. Why WB, WHY????
From what I saw in the movie, Leto was given nothing to work with AND I don't think he made very good decisions as an actor. It was a bad mix of both, if you ask me. Leto made some weird choices, here (like the purring ... wtf?).
I don't think we'll ever know exactly what was cut out from the movie, but I think it's very possible that keeping the Joker limited like this may have saved the character, considering the odd choices made. Joker had so little screentime here that I think they can "fix" the things that have gone wrong.
It's not like Eisenberg's Lex Luthor, at least (who is past the point of salvaging at this point). There's still time to fix a few things here and there for Mistah J.
I thought the pur/growl was great, when I saw the trailer it looked like he was circling his prey and sure enough the noises he was making doubled down on that. And it could've been in the script, doesn't mean he just came up with it
I also hate any movie that has to be "kid-ified." If a lot of the Joker's scenes were cut because they were too abusive towards Harley and it would up the rating of the movie, I think that is bull. I absolutely despise the idea that movies need to be made to be more kid friendly. Irresponsible parents will take their children to movies regardless of what is in them (Deadpool anyone?). Keep the movies as they are and let the chips fall where they may.
In essence it was more the material Leto was given I think. You can't really say he did a bad job if that's what they gave him to work with. Now Affleck may write him better as I suspect he knows the dynamic a little better than Ayer, who basically I think was just cherry picking stuff from the cartoons and comics.
It's not so much the material Leto was given to work with. Rather, it's all of his material they chose to cut from the film, compounded with how his few remaining scenes are presented and used within this theatrical version of the film. From what we know, it seems that they cut out the scenes that would have been more dynamic, intense, threatening, and memorable than the bits that were left in the film. Beyond that, it's obvious that even his scenes that still exist within the film have been chopped up, poorly edited, and trimmed down.
For the sake of comparison, imagine if Heath Ledger's 33 minutes of screentime in TDK had been cut down to something like 10-12 minutes total, with entire Joker scenes removed from the film, some rearranged, and other Joker scenes getting shaved down to shorter bits of the scenes we all know and love. Just think about how much of a radical difference that would make in terms of how we all currently view Ledger's Joker and his impact on the film itself. Would he still have made the same impact in terms of his characterization and the immense praise for his performance?
How would we feel about The Joker if we'd never seen his infamous "LOOK AT ME" video scene, or if the film was edited down and re-shot to show that Rachel lived and wasn't killed by The Joker? What if his meeting with the mob bosses was trimmed so that we never see The Joker make his exit by pulling out his jacket full of grenades, and we never got to hear his hilarious "Yeah" response or "Here's my card" line? How about if Gambol's death scene was only implied and ended with The Joker popping out of the body bag to grab him, with his whole "Why so serious" story and face slash cut entirely? Or if the iconic interrogation scene was cut down to 1.5 minutes total and some of Joker's best lines and moments were missing? Would his moment with the Chechen in front of the burning cash have made the cut? Or his full conversation with Harvey in the hospital? The quick shot of him using hand sanitizer? Slapping the faces of party guests asking about Harvey Dent? Climbing out of his wrecked truck and cracking his neck with the machine gun going off? Jumping around, giggling, and spitting at his goon that was shocked by Batman's mask?
My point is that changes like that would have left us with a neutered, shell of The Joker in TDK as we know him to be now. We would have had less exposure to Heath's Joker and therefore his potential would simply not have been fully or properly realized. It would have been a disservice to Heath's full performance, and it would have been impossible for him to have had the same kind of impact on audiences and critics if his role had been reduced or altered in such a fashion. And it's not just the deletion of entire scenes that would have made such a difference, but also some of those "tiny" but memorable moments/lines/actions that undoubtedly add to the overall picture of Ledger's Joker and ultimately help inform how we perceive and remember him. Heath could have still given the same, incredible performance, but would we truly have been able to see just how amazing it was if chunks and bits of it were missing, and his role within the film had subsequently been altered/reduced to make him less frightening/menacing?
Here are some of the rumored Joker things deleted from SS:
"Extended scene of Joker interrogating Captain Griggs, including the line, "I can't wait to show you my toys," which was in every trailer, but was removed from the movie."
"Extended psycho-therapy session between Dr. Quinzel and The Joker, in which he entices and manipulates her to help him escape."
"Joker and his men escaping after shooting up a restaurant. Harley, who is already affiliated with the Joker at this point, follows them on a motorcycle and intercepts their car. Joker bangs his head against the glass in frustration."
"Extended "Hurt you really bad" scene after Joker escapes, which showed The Joker beating someone to death with a baseball bat and included more dialogue."
"Joker and Harley then get into a fight, which ends with Harley pointing a gun at Joker's head. Joker sweet-talks Harley into lowering the gun, charming her, then backhands her across the face. Afterwards he sweet-talks her again and they kiss."
"Extended Ace Chemicals scene where Harley jumps into the chemicals. More bits of dialogue from Joker."
"Extended Batmobile chase scene with more interaction between Joker and Harley. One of the examples, presented in all the trailers, is the Joker punching the roof of his car."
"Extended scene of Joker breaking into the nanobomb manufacture facility to arrange for Harley's neck-bomb to be disabled."
"Removed several scenes with the Joker to repaint his relationship with Harley as more loving rather than abusive."
"Joker and Harley get into an argument after he rescues her in the hijacked helicopter. In early cuts he reportedly pushes her out to kill her, then the helicopter gets shot down. This was apparently reworked into the helicopter getting shot down first and Joker pushing her out to save her."
"Joker returns during the final battle in the subway station, face half-burnt from the helicopter crash, which apparently leads to a brief altercation with the Squad. He calls for Harley to escape with him but she refuses for once in order to help her friends, and the Joker escapes after throwing a live grenade at the group to cover his own escape."
Those are just bare-bones descriptions of scenes, but just think of the lines of dialogue we never got to hear from this Joker, how we might have seen him act or move in some of those scenes, how differently he would have been shown to act towards Harley, how much more menacing he likely would have been shown to be, etc. As it stands now, none of The Joker's existing scenes are given any room to breathe. They're clearly snippets and slivers of full scenes and each one of his "scenes" seemed to last no longer than a minute or so. We have no idea exactly what The Joker would have said or done in those deleted scenes, along with the pieces of scenes that were trimmed. Maybe they would have solidified that this was a poor interpretation of The Joker overall...or maybe they would have presented us with a more fully realized, truly great, worthwhile and memorable version of The Joker.
At this point, I'm leaning towards the latter. In trying to listen to the "fans" and audiences, WB really **** the bed and ultimately tainted the first impression of Leto's Joker. It's extremely disheartening for me, because even with the little bit of Joker left in the film, I can see the potential for greatness and I can imagine how much better he would have come off if they had stuck with their guns and given us The Joker they originally intended to give. Personally, I don't blame Leto for any of this and liked the little I saw of him.
I mean, I don't see Joker texting being out of character. I think it's hilarious that they're doing something so mundane and he's on this hellbent chaotic spree.
I pretty much hated Leto. I like the look and the conception behind the look. A materialistic, vain Joker is something I can get behind and it's a smart move post Ledger, who looked like he was sick and smelled bad. This one looks like he smells of expensive perfumes. It's a canny move.
But then there's the performance. Ugh. I never bought it, not for a second. It made me think of the It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia episode "The Nightman Cometh" where Mac decides he's going to wear feline contact lenses and do Jiu Jitsu on stage because it's gonna be so badass.
And it is not badass. It's just silly and embarrassing. That's Leto's Joker. The goofy, convention-level Ledger impression of a voice, the forced laugh, the self conscious body language, the goddamn purring. And were they even trying to make him funny? It's a swing and massive, massive miss.
And he stayed in THAT character for the entire length of the shoot? Can you imagine what an irritating *****ebag he must've been.
It's not so much the material Leto was given to work with. Rather, it's all of his material they chose to cut from the film, compounded with how his few remaining scenes are presented and used within this theatrical version of the film. From what we know, it seems that they cut out the scenes that would have been more dynamic, intense, threatening, and memorable than the bits that were left in the film. Beyond that, it's obvious that even his scenes that still exist within the film have been chopped up, poorly edited, and trimmed down.
For the sake of comparison, imagine if Heath Ledger's 33 minutes of screentime in TDK had been cut down to something like 10-12 minutes total, with entire Joker scenes removed from the film, some rearranged, and other Joker scenes getting shaved down to shorter bits of the scenes we all know and love. Just think about how much of a radical difference that would make in terms of how we all currently view Ledger's Joker and his impact on the film itself. Would he still have made the same impact in terms of his characterization and the immense praise for his performance?
How would we feel about The Joker if we'd never seen his infamous "LOOK AT ME" video scene, or if the film was edited down and re-shot to show that Rachel lived and wasn't killed by The Joker? What if his meeting with the mob bosses was trimmed so that we never see The Joker make his exit by pulling out his jacket full of grenades, and we never got to hear his hilarious "Yeah" response or "Here's my card" line? How about if Gambol's death scene was only implied and ended with The Joker popping out of the body bag to grab him, with his whole "Why so serious" story and face slash cut entirely? Or if the iconic interrogation scene was cut down to 1.5 minutes total and some of Joker's best lines and moments were missing? Would his moment with the Chechen in front of the burning cash have made the cut? Or his full conversation with Harvey in the hospital? The quick shot of him using hand sanitizer? Slapping the faces of party guests asking about Harvey Dent? Climbing out of his wrecked truck and cracking his neck with the machine gun going off? Jumping around, giggling, and spitting at his goon that was shocked by Batman's mask?
My point is that changes like that would have left us with a neutered, shell of The Joker in TDK as we know him to be now. We would have had less exposure to Heath's Joker and therefore his potential would simply not have been fully or properly realized. It would have been a disservice to Heath's full performance, and it would have been impossible for him to have had the same kind of impact on audiences and critics if his role had been reduced or altered in such a fashion. And it's not just the deletion of entire scenes that would have made such a difference, but also some of those "tiny" but memorable moments/lines/actions that undoubtedly add to the overall picture of Ledger's Joker and ultimately help inform how we perceive and remember him. Heath could have still given the same, incredible performance, but would we truly have been able to see just how amazing it was if chunks and bits of it were missing, and his role within the film had subsequently been altered/reduced to make him less frightening/menacing?
Here are some of the rumored Joker things deleted from SS:
"Extended scene of Joker interrogating Captain Griggs, including the line, "I can't wait to show you my toys," which was in every trailer, but was removed from the movie."
"Extended psycho-therapy session between Dr. Quinzel and The Joker, in which he entices and manipulates her to help him escape."
"Joker and his men escaping after shooting up a restaurant. Harley, who is already affiliated with the Joker at this point, follows them on a motorcycle and intercepts their car. Joker bangs his head against the glass in frustration."
"Extended "Hurt you really bad" scene after Joker escapes, which showed The Joker beating someone to death with a baseball bat and included more dialogue."
"Joker and Harley then get into a fight, which ends with Harley pointing a gun at Joker's head. Joker sweet-talks Harley into lowering the gun, charming her, then backhands her across the face. Afterwards he sweet-talks her again and they kiss."
"Extended Ace Chemicals scene where Harley jumps into the chemicals. More bits of dialogue from Joker."
"Extended Batmobile chase scene with more interaction between Joker and Harley. One of the examples, presented in all the trailers, is the Joker punching the roof of his car."
"Extended scene of Joker breaking into the nanobomb manufacture facility to arrange for Harley's neck-bomb to be disabled."
"Removed several scenes with the Joker to repaint his relationship with Harley as more loving rather than abusive."
"Joker and Harley get into an argument after he rescues her in the hijacked helicopter. In early cuts he reportedly pushes her out to kill her, then the helicopter gets shot down. This was apparently reworked into the helicopter getting shot down first and Joker pushing her out to save her."
"Joker returns during the final battle in the subway station, face half-burnt from the helicopter crash, which apparently leads to a brief altercation with the Squad. He calls for Harley to escape with him but she refuses for once in order to help her friends, and the Joker escapes after throwing a live grenade at the group to cover his own escape."
Those are just bare-bones descriptions of scenes, but just think of the lines of dialogue we never got to hear from this Joker, how we might have seen him act or move in some of those scenes, how differently he would have been shown to act towards Harley, how much more menacing he likely would have been shown to be, etc. As it stands now, none of The Joker's existing scenes are given any room to breathe. They're clearly snippets and slivers of full scenes and each one of his "scenes" seemed to last no longer than a minute or so. We have no idea exactly what The Joker would have said or done in those deleted scenes, along with the pieces of scenes that were trimmed. Maybe they would have solidified that this was a poor interpretation of The Joker overall...or maybe they would have presented us with a more fully realized, truly great, worthwhile and memorable version of The Joker.
At this point, I'm leaning towards the latter. In trying to listen to the "fans" and audiences, WB really **** the bed and ultimately tainted the first impression of Leto's Joker. It's extremely disheartening for me, because even with the little bit of Joker left in the film, I can see the potential for greatness and I can imagine how much better he would have come off if they had stuck with their guns and given us The Joker they originally intended to give. Personally, I don't blame Leto for any of this and liked the little I saw of him.
Excellent, excellent post! I feel the exact same way, it's a shame the studio did that to his performance. I thought all of his scenes were great but were so short, it never really had any room to breathe or develop into scenes with genuine tension in them
At this point, I'm leaning towards the latter. In trying to listen to the "fans" and audiences, WB really **** the bed and ultimately tainted the first impression of Leto's Joker. It's extremely disheartening for me, because even with the little bit of Joker left in the film, I can see the potential for greatness and I can imagine how much better he would have come off if they had stuck with their guns and given us The Joker they originally intended to give. Personally, I don't blame Leto for any of this and liked the little I saw of him.
Disheartening is the right word, because the scenes exist! They're sitting on a computer somewhere and we might never get to see them. Sure, they'll probably put some additional material on the DVD and Blu-ray but we'll never get to see the full scenes in their right context.
At this point, everyone knows WB ****ed up. They know that we know. The movie has only been out for a few days so I'm not gonna cry foul just yet, but WB needs to pull their heads out of their asses and show us what 1) they promised us and 2) what Leto has been working on.
Disheartening is the right word, because the scenes exist! They're sitting on a computer somewhere and we might never get to see them. Sure, they'll probably put some additional material on the DVD and Blu-ray but we'll never get to see the full scenes in their right context.
At this point, everyone knows WB ****ed up. They know that we know. The movie has only been out for a few days so I'm not gonna cry foul just yet, but WB needs to pull their heads out of their asses and show us what 1) they promised us and 2) what Leto has been working on.
Didn't wanna alienate the fangirls I guess. But I suspect most of them know how he treats Harley, and they were at the showings decked out in her gear.
I pretty much hated Leto. I like the look and the conception behind the look. A materialistic, vain Joker is something I can get behind and it's a smart move post Ledger, who looked like he was sick and smelled bad. This one looks like he smells of expensive perfumes. It's a canny move.
But then there's the performance. Ugh. I never bought it, not for a second. It made me think of the It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia episode "The Nightman Cometh" where Mac decides he's going to wear feline contact lenses and do Jiu Jitsu on stage because it's gonna be so badass.
And it is not badass. It's just silly and embarrassing. That's Leto's Joker. The goofy, convention-level Ledger impression of a voice, the forced laugh, the self conscious body language, the goddamn purring. And were they even trying to make him funny? It's a swing and massive, massive miss.
And he stayed in THAT character for the entire length of the shoot? Can you imagine what an irritating *****ebag he must've been.
Disheartening is the right word, because the scenes exist! They're sitting on a computer somewhere and we might never get to see them. Sure, they'll probably put some additional material on the DVD and Blu-ray but we'll never get to see the full scenes in their right context.
At this point, everyone knows WB ****ed up. They know that we know. The movie has only been out for a few days so I'm not gonna cry foul just yet, but WB needs to pull their heads out of their asses and show us what 1) they promised us and 2) what Leto has been working on.
I really, truly hope that this works and they release the scenes....maybe even ahead of the DVD release. They really did shoot themselves in the foot (again) by cutting out so much.
The only way to stop some of the bleeding at this point is to let everyone see what they were being sold for a year and didn't get to (fully) see.
I really, truly hope that this works and they release the scenes....maybe even ahead of the DVD release. They really did shoot themselves in the foot (again) by cutting out so much.
The only way to stop some of the bleeding at this point is to let everyone see what they were being sold for a year and didn't get to (fully) see.
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