What do you all expect from those extended scenes? I'm interested in watching them just out of lifelong comic book fan curiosity, but additional footage is unlikely to be able to enhance or detract from the performance. There's already enough material in the theatrical cut to determine whether or not you're a fan of Leto's (and Ayer's) aesthetical take on the character. And more Joker moments certainly isn't going to be able to fix all the flubs in character motivation and the conceptual plot holes that plague the experience of the movie as a whole.
It seems his "crazy" laugh is a direct homage to Romero, just in a deeper tone.
I was a bit disappointed he doesn't have much versatility in it though. Even Heath managed to give a wide range, despite not being a trained voice actor.
Imo, it's the best move to make. I really want to see if Affleck & Leto sync on-screen. The chase scene was nice, but there was no dialogue between the two.
I want to see how well the dynamic plays out between the two.
What do you all expect from those extended scenes? I'm interested in watching them just out of lifelong comic book fan curiosity, but additional footage is unlikely to be able to enhance or detract from the performance.
There's already enough material in the theatrical cut to determine whether or not you're a fan of Leto's (and Ayer's) aesthetical take on the character.
Aesthetically, sure, because we all have eyes, saw what he looks like in the film, and therefore know what he'd look like in additional scenes. Most people already had their minds made up about his appearance before they ever saw the film, anyway.
But character-wise and performance-wise, is there enough material to make the same kind of concrete determinations about him? Some might say yes, others would say definitely not.
And more Joker moments certainly isn't going to be able to fix all the flubs in character motivation and the conceptual plot holes that plague the experience of the movie as a whole.
Wouldn't they have at least alleviated some of those issues pertaining to The Joker and Harley, though? Have you not read what was cut? We would have seen more of the true, abusive, one-sided relationship between The Joker and Harley, he wouldn't have come off as desperately pining to get Harley out of what appeared to simply be "love" in the film, and by all accounts, he would have appeared to be more menacing and more of a threat overall. There would have been more Joker scenes, and a bunch of his existing scenes would have been longer and more fleshed out.
Thinking logically here, wouldn't changes like that have affected The Joker's characterization in the film and how he was ultimately perceived by viewers?
Imo, it's the best move to make. I really want to see if Affleck & Leto sync on-screen. The chase scene was nice, but there was no dialogue between the two.
I want to see how well the dynamic plays out between the two.
I'm just worried they'll make him a side character again since WB will probably want to do something different than Joker being the main villian of a Batman film again
I want to see it before I judge Lego, but the idea of a rock star joker sounds horrible to me, and I hated his costume since I saw it.
I'm really hoping for a creative ret con. Just go with that rumour. Have him be the deceased robin. If he can't be jason Todd, then have him be Damian wayne. And do it under the red hood style. And have the real joker be still alive played by somebody else.
Aesthetically, sure, because we all have eyes, saw what he looks like in the film, and therefore know what he'd look like in additional scenes. Most people already had their minds made up about his appearance before they ever saw the film, anyway.
But character-wise and performance-wise, is there enough material to make the same kind of concrete determinations about him? Some might say yes, others would say definitely not.
You start talking to yourself here. The entire performance is an exercise in aesthetics because Ayer gives Leto next to nothing to do. Indeed, as many critics have noted, the character of The Joker can be lifted out of the movie completely and the plot (or lack thereof) would remain the same.
Wouldn't they have at least alleviated some of those issues pertaining to The Joker and Harley, though? Have you not read what was cut? We would have seen more of the true, abusive, one-sided relationship between The Joker and Harley, he wouldn't have come off as desperately pining to get Harley out of what appeared to simply be "love" in the film, and by all accounts, he would have appeared to be more menacing and more of a threat overall. There would have been more Joker scenes, and a bunch of his existing scenes would have been longer and more fleshed out.
Thinking logically here, wouldn't changes like that have affected The Joker's characterization in the film and how he was ultimately perceived by viewers?
So there's a scene where he slaps Harley. We saw most of it already, a year ago. No, I do not think reinstating a scene between a supporting character and an ancillary character will cure the movie's rampant characterization problems. And none of the other extended or cut scenes sound interesting. Also, if we're taking Ayer's word for it, he cut them himself, and for a reason.
Wouldn't they have at least alleviated some of those issues pertaining to The Joker and Harley, though? Have you not read what was cut? We would have seen more of the true, abusive, one-sided relationship between The Joker and Harley, he wouldn't have come off as desperately pining to get Harley out of what appeared to simply be "love" in the film, and by all accounts, he would have appeared to be more menacing and more of a threat overall. There would have been more Joker scenes, and a bunch of his existing scenes would have been longer and more fleshed out.
Thinking logically here, wouldn't changes like that have affected The Joker's characterization in the film and how he was ultimately perceived by viewers?
It's also important to remember that while Joker is the one we want to see the most, some of the cut scenes involved the Squad itself as well. An extended cut would give everybody more screentime, not just Joker.
Cute, but as you know, I was questioning your assertion that additional footage/scenes wouldn't have enhanced Leto's performance or Joker characterization. With that logic in place, do you also believe that deleting scenes or moments of Ledger's Joker from TDK wouldn't have detracted at all from his performance and characterization in the film?
You start talking to yourself here. The entire performance is an exercise in aesthetics because Ayer gives Leto next to nothing to do. Indeed, as many critics have noted, the character of The Joker can be lifted out of the movie completely and the plot (or lack thereof) would remain the same.
You're saying that Ayer gave Leto "nothing to do", while we are literally talking about how things The Joker said or did were deleted from the film or changed. Part of the reason why The Joker doesn't seem to be as integral/impactful to the plot and to Harley's character arc is due to the fact that his role in the film was reduced and altered via editing and reshoots.
Which bring us back to the original point...that Leto's Joker might have been more effective and memorable if those additional sequences hadn't been cut and his role in the film remained as it had originally been intended, and he therefore may have made a stronger impression on viewers.
So there's a scene where he slaps Harley. We saw most of it already, a year ago. No, I do not think reinstating a scene between a supporting character and an ancillary character will cure the movie's rampant characterization problems. And none of the other extended or cut scenes sound interesting. Also, if we're taking Ayer's word for it, he cut them himself, and for a reason.
We're talking about more than one scene being deleted, but regarding Joker slapping Harley, when you say "we saw most of it already a year ago", I'm guessing you're referring to the blurry and soundless set videos/pictures of the filming of that scene which was likely only seen by the kind of die-hard fans like ourselves who often follow these productions on a daily basis and care about set videos? What about the other deleted scenes, or pieces of existing scenes that are missing or trimmed? Are you suggesting that none of those things could have helped make this a more effective and memorable version of The Joker (or enhanced/improved his role within the film) simply because none of the vague, one-sentence scene descriptions sound interesting to you?
Lastly, to your point that "reinstating a scene between a supporting character and an ancillary character will cure the movie's rampant characterization problems", I didn't mean to confuse you here. This is The Joker thread, and we were talking about how all of the deleted/altered Joker material could have affected and enhanced his performance, characterization, and role within the film.
I don't think anyone has suggested that including all or more of the originally intended Joker scenes would have magically fixed ALL of the movie's problems pertaining to other characters and plot elements. I sure as hell didn't.
It's not so much the material Leto was given to work with. Rather, it's all of his material they chose to cut from the film, compounded with how his few remaining scenes are presented and used within this theatrical version of the film. From what we know, it seems that they cut out the scenes that would have been more dynamic, intense, threatening, and memorable than the bits that were left in the film. Beyond that, it's obvious that even his scenes that still exist within the film have been chopped up, poorly edited, and trimmed down.
For the sake of comparison, imagine if Heath Ledger's 33 minutes of screentime in TDK had been cut down to something like 10-12 minutes total, with entire Joker scenes removed from the film, some rearranged, and other Joker scenes getting shaved down to shorter bits of the scenes we all know and love. Just think about how much of a radical difference that would make in terms of how we all currently view Ledger's Joker and his impact on the film itself. Would he still have made the same impact in terms of his characterization and the immense praise for his performance?
How would we feel about The Joker if we'd never seen his infamous "LOOK AT ME" video scene, or if the film was edited down and re-shot to show that Rachel lived and wasn't killed by The Joker? What if his meeting with the mob bosses was trimmed so that we never see The Joker make his exit by pulling out his jacket full of grenades, and we never got to hear his hilarious "Yeah" response or "Here's my card" line? How about if Gambol's death scene was only implied and ended with The Joker popping out of the body bag to grab him, with his whole "Why so serious" story and face slash cut entirely? Or if the iconic interrogation scene was cut down to 1.5 minutes total and some of Joker's best lines and moments were missing? Would his moment with the Chechen in front of the burning cash have made the cut? Or his full conversation with Harvey in the hospital? The quick shot of him using hand sanitizer? Slapping the faces of party guests asking about Harvey Dent? Climbing out of his wrecked truck and cracking his neck with the machine gun going off? Jumping around, giggling, and spitting at his goon that was shocked by Batman's mask?
My point is that changes like that would have left us with a neutered, shell of The Joker in TDK as we know him to be now. We would have had less exposure to Heath's Joker and therefore his potential would simply not have been fully or properly realized. It would have been a disservice to Heath's full performance, and it would have been impossible for him to have had the same kind of impact on audiences and critics if his role had been reduced or altered in such a fashion. And it's not just the deletion of entire scenes that would have made such a difference, but also some of those "tiny" but memorable moments/lines/actions that undoubtedly add to the overall picture of Ledger's Joker and ultimately help inform how we perceive and remember him. Heath could have still given the same, incredible performance, but would we truly have been able to see just how amazing it was if chunks and bits of it were missing, and his role within the film had subsequently been altered/reduced to make him less frightening/menacing?
Here are some of the rumored Joker things deleted from SS:
"Extended scene of Joker interrogating Captain Griggs, including the line, "I can't wait to show you my toys," which was in every trailer, but was removed from the movie."
"Extended psycho-therapy session between Dr. Quinzel and The Joker, in which he entices and manipulates her to help him escape."
"Joker and his men escaping after shooting up a restaurant. Harley, who is already affiliated with the Joker at this point, follows them on a motorcycle and intercepts their car. Joker bangs his head against the glass in frustration."
"Extended "Hurt you really bad" scene after Joker escapes, which showed The Joker beating someone to death with a baseball bat and included more dialogue."
"Joker and Harley then get into a fight, which ends with Harley pointing a gun at Joker's head. Joker sweet-talks Harley into lowering the gun, charming her, then backhands her across the face. Afterwards he sweet-talks her again and they kiss."
"Extended Ace Chemicals scene where Harley jumps into the chemicals. More bits of dialogue from Joker."
"Extended Batmobile chase scene with more interaction between Joker and Harley. One of the examples, presented in all the trailers, is the Joker punching the roof of his car."
"Extended scene of Joker breaking into the nanobomb manufacture facility to arrange for Harley's neck-bomb to be disabled."
"Removed several scenes with the Joker to repaint his relationship with Harley as more loving rather than abusive."
"Joker and Harley get into an argument after he rescues her in the hijacked helicopter. In early cuts he reportedly pushes her out to kill her, then the helicopter gets shot down. This was apparently reworked into the helicopter getting shot down first and Joker pushing her out to save her."
"Joker returns during the final battle in the subway station, face half-burnt from the helicopter crash, which apparently leads to a brief altercation with the Squad. He calls for Harley to escape with him but she refuses for once in order to help her friends, and the Joker escapes after throwing a live grenade at the group to cover his own escape."
Those are just bare-bones descriptions of scenes, but just think of the lines of dialogue we never got to hear from this Joker, how we might have seen him act or move in some of those scenes, how differently he would have been shown to act towards Harley, how much more menacing he likely would have been shown to be, etc. As it stands now, none of The Joker's existing scenes are given any room to breathe. They're clearly snippets and slivers of full scenes and each one of his "scenes" seemed to last no longer than a minute or so. We have no idea exactly what The Joker would have said or done in those deleted scenes, along with the pieces of scenes that were trimmed. Maybe they would have solidified that this was a poor interpretation of The Joker overall...or maybe they would have presented us with a more fully realized, truly great, worthwhile and memorable version of The Joker.
At this point, I'm leaning towards the latter. In trying to listen to the "fans" and audiences, WB really **** the bed and ultimately tainted the first impression of Leto's Joker. It's extremely disheartening for me, because even with the little bit of Joker left in the film, I can see the potential for greatness and I can imagine how much better he would have come off if they had stuck with their guns and given us The Joker they originally intended to give. Personally, I don't blame Leto for any of this and liked the little I saw of him.
Easy enough to say all of that about cutting scenes. But the fact is you know greatness when you see it. Even the dumb studio executives could figure out immediately that Heath was doing incredible work as soon as they saw daily footage come in from the set. I just think if Leto was so amazing, they wouldn't have cut 95% of his work from the film.
I do feel bad for Leto though. I'm sure he put his heart and soul into it. And I'm sure the Joker character suffered from all the cuts. But I don't think we have some genius level performance hidden in the cuts. I believe more of it would have come through in the theatrical version of the film.
And I don't think the problem is in Leto nearly as much as the way Ayer used and contextualized the character in this film and the fact that studio cut out too much of his performance.
I believe Leto can give us a good performance once the film works in his favor and not against him.
I'm just worried they'll make him a side character again since WB will probably want to do something different than Joker being the main villian of a Batman film again
WB need to keep their mouths shut and just let Affleck & co. handle the entire affair. Their decision making is horrid.
The last time Batman and the Joker went at it in a solo outing it resulted in the first billion dollar superhero movie. The reason being Nolan was at the helm and he was able to do his thing without interference. Affleck needs that same space.
The reality is people always want to see these two stand off, but the story has to be good. As long as WB doesn't get involved with any of their stupid ideas, it should be fine.
Easy enough to say all of that about cutting scenes. But the fact is you know greatness when you see it. Even the dumb studio executives could figure out immediately that Heath was doing incredible work as soon as they saw daily footage come in from the set. I just think if Leto was so amazing, they wouldn't have cut 95% of his work from the film.
C'mon, you know that's a silly comparison. I only used Ledger's Joker in that completely hypothetical example to demonstrate how cutting out bits of scenes or entire scenes (cutting a character's screentime in half or less) could tarnish or diminish the presentation of a character and the actor's full performance potential as a result.
Your above thought is obviously the furthest thing from an apples-to-apples comparison. WB in their "prime" and a filmmaker with total creative control would have no reason to cut down and butcher Joker scenes in a Batman vs Joker movie, whether they thought Ledger's Joker was just okay or incredible.
Here, we have a WB that is seemingly in shambles with their DC properties and, based on the reaction to their previous outing, felt obligated to meddle with Suicide Squad to remove/change things they felt would be too dark, disturbing, and mature (ie: Joker stuff) in an effort to lighten up the film, make it more kid-friendly for audiences, and avoid controversy.
I maintain it's ridiculous to think they wanted to "hide" Leto's performance, and as Greens mentioned above, those cuts and reshoots didn't only affect or reduce Leto's role. Nearly every central character (outside of Deadshot) had scenes or moments that were cut/changed, and as a result, characters wound up being watered down, lightened up, and/or have less screen time in the final film.
I do feel bad for Leto though. I'm sure he put his heart and soul into it. And I'm sure the Joker character suffered from all the cuts. But I don't think we have some genius level performance hidden in the cuts. I believe more of it would have come through in the theatrical version of the film.
I feel bad for him to. I'm not definitely saying his performance would have been viewed as "genius-level" if left untouched, but we'll never know because we'll never get to see the full extent of his role and performance within the context film itself. Deleted scenes, out of context and after-the-face, would never have the same potential or effect.
I mean, the dude disappeared into the role about as much as you can expect an actor to, not that many people know him enough to be like, "all I see is Jared Leto and not Joker".
I feel bad for him too. I'm not definitely saying his performance would have been viewed as "genius-level" if left untouched, but we'll never know because we'll never get to see the full extent of his role and performance within the context film itself. Deleted scenes, out of context and after-the-face, would never have the same potential or effect.
I mean I think we'll get a decent idea when the deleted scenes are released. Even if WB won't put out an extended cut of the film, the fans will be able to piece it together. Ledger's Joker was out of context in the marketing and people still completely went bonkers over that December 2007 trailer. He looked, sounded, and acted incredible even out of context.
I mean, the dude disappeared into the role about as much as you can expect an actor to, not that many people know him enough to be like, "all I see is Jared Leto and not Joker".
Well, all I see IS Leto. His going loony tunes method actor on-set is immaterial to me and not the kind of "disappearing into a role" that the detractors are talking about; all I see on screen is Jared Leto posing and hamming and making a damn fool of himself.
Ledger's Joker was out of context in the marketing and people still completely went bonkers over that December 2007 trailer. He looked, sounded, and acted incredible even out of context.
Cute, but as you know, I was questioning your assertion that additional footage/scenes wouldn't have enhanced Leto's performance or Joker characterization. With that logic in place, do you also believe that deleting scenes or moments of Ledger's Joker from TDK wouldn't have detracted at all from his performance and characterization in the film?
No, I didn't know what you were talking about. I couldn't have. The "Huh?" you offered wasn't as pithy as you must have assumed it was. Regarding your sudden evocation of Heath Ledger's Joker, I have this to say: quantity is not the same as quality. Sure, if you delete pieces of Ledger's performance from The Dark Knight, the character would likely suffer. But Leto's Joker is not Ledger's Joker. And Suicide Squad is not The Dark Knight. You seem to be making a ridiculous assumption that more screen time automatically equals stronger characterization. That is not true.
You're saying that Ayer gave Leto "nothing to do", while we are literally talking about how things The Joker said or did were deleted from the film or changed. Part of the reason why The Joker doesn't seem to be as integral/impactful to the plot and to Harley's character arc is due to the fact that his role in the film was reduced and altered via editing and reshoots.
Which bring us back to the original point...that Leto's Joker might have been more effective and memorable if those additional sequences hadn't been cut and his role in the film remained as it had originally been intended, and he therefore may have made a stronger impression on viewers.
Again, you are making a ridiculous assumption. I understand that plenty of Joker material ended up on the cutting room floor. You must understand, though, that virtually every performance in the history of cinema has been pared down. Cuts are normal. David Ayer maintains that the version of the movie we've seen in theaters is his own approved cut. He maintains that he welcomed the opportunity WB granted him for reshoots. You and others may be willing to call the man a boldfaced liar; I, however, am taking his word for it. Whatever was cut was not good enough to make the final cut and therefore most likely did not add significantly to The Joker's characterization.
Again, all evidence suggests that this movie is what it is. And so Leto's Joker most likely is what it is, extended scenes or not. In a similar way, a few months back, disappointed fans were hoping a three-hour Batman v Superman would somehow morph the theatrical version into something other than trash. That didn't happen. Here's hoping Ben Affleck delivers a Batman script that will allow Leto to shine.
Well, all I see IS Leto. His going loony tunes method actor on-set is immaterial to me and not the kind of "disappearing into a role" that the detractors are talking about; all I see on screen is Jared Leto posing and hamming and making a damn fool of himself.
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