Comics Jean and the Phoenix Force

[BrianWilly]

Jean went crazy because someone else screwed with her mind. She was handling the Phoenix Force pretty well up till that point.

And it's hardly accurate at all to say that Rachel's never had any problems as the Phoenix.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Jean went crazy because someone else screwed with her mind. She was handling the Phoenix Force pretty well up till that point.

And it's hardly accurate at all to say that Rachel's never had any problems as the Phoenix.

Jean was having problems with the phoenix force before master mind messed with her.You need to read issues 107 throught 128 you will see little signs of her losing control.And I did not say that Rachel had no problems just that it would make sence for her to have less.

 

[Bastila]

^
She does have some problems with it, but its because she can feel peoples fear like Kitty so she uses more power to stop bad guys really i didn't think she lost control .

 

[BrianWilly]

Right, that's why I said Jean was handling it "pretty well." Sure she had a bunch of problems, but ultimately the only solid reason she turned into Dark Phoenix -- which a lot of people seem to be taking as proof that Rachel controls the Phoenix better than her -- is because she was affected by outside forces.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Right, that's why I said Jean was handling it "pretty well." Sure she had a bunch of problems, but ultimately the only solid reason she turned into Dark Phoenix -- which a lot of people seem to be taking as proof that Rachel controls the Phoenix better than her -- is because she was affected by outside forces.

Even without out side forces she would have lost control as a child Pro-X placed psi-dampers in her mind fearing that she might one day lose control of her powers. Her transformation in to the Phoenix sped up the process.With or without Masterminds influence.

 

[Wolverazio]

Even without out side forces she would have lost control as a child Pro-X placed psi-dampers in her mind fearing that she might one day lose control of her powers. Her transformation in to the Phoenix sped up the process.With or without Masterminds influence.

But that's treating his fears as fact. They are not, they are merely what they are.

Fears of what COULD be, not fears of what WILL be.

 

[Bastila]

Fears of what COULD be, not fears of what WILL be.

Good point.

I still think mastermind had a bit part to play really, if he and the hellfire didn't do what they did, she might have lost control like she did, she might have lost control a tiny bit but not as bad, but it was hellfire club more then anything.

 

[X_fan08]

On the bio for Jean Grey on Wikipedia,it says that jean was being watched by the phoenix the whole time and enabled Jean to go the afterlife with her friend that died. and because of this, the phoenix thought she had a kinship with Jean. What issue does it explain all this.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

But that's treating his fears as fact. They are not, they are merely what they are.

Fears of what COULD be, not fears of what WILL be.

See thats what what makes this a circular argument.Yes they were fears of what could be....But fears based on what Pro-X knew about Jeans personality and what he knew she could handle.Remember besides being one of earths most powerful telapaths [which gives him special insite] but he is also one of the best Psychologist in the marvel universe and a Professer in Psychology [I forgot at what school ] fears maybe... but not with out merit.

 

[Wolverazio]

See thats what what makes this a circular argument.Yes they were fears of what could be....But fears based on what Pro-X knew about Jeans personality and what he knew she could handle.Remember besides being one of earths most powerful telapaths [which gives him special insite] but he is also one of the best Psychologist in the marvel universe and a Professer in Psychology [I forgot at what school ] fears maybe... but not with out merit.

But neither does that make them certainty. He knew Jean's personality THEN, as a child. You also have to factor in that she spent a good 10-15 years or so under the tutelage of a man who was terrified of what she could become and logcially would instill beliefs and values that would prevent such a thing from occuring were her full power ever to arise.

You're only strengthening my argument here, lol.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

But neither does that make them certainty. He knew Jean's personality THEN, as a child. You also have to factor in that she spent a good 10-15 years or so under the tutelage of a man who was terrified of what she could become and logcially would instill beliefs and values that would prevent such a thing from occuring were her full power ever to arise.

You're only strengthening my argument here, lol.

I dont see how. The fact that all the years in teaching her to control herself... and in a few weeks of Mastermind and its all to waste.The way I see it your just strenghening my argument Jean could not handle the power of the Phoenix then.She would have lost control ether way.jean was weak

 

[Bastila]

I never liked Rachel as Phoenix or Rachel at all really she always kind of bugged me, i found her annoying.

 

[Cosmic Mind]

she is not annoying, they just writing in the wrong way

 

[BrianWilly]

Are you sure you're not just using the movie as the basis for Jean's loss of control?

Here's the fact: We don't know if Professor X's fears were valid. If Mastermind had left her alone, it's quite possible that she would have gone on using her powers without any loss of control at all. In fact, we know that this is more than a possibility since, in Morrison's arc and even a little before then, she was exploring her powers to their fullest potential and doing just fine with it. Jean constantly stated, over the course of decades, that she was tired of everyone being scared of her immense powers and trying to hold her back, that keeping her from really cutting loose just made her feel stifled and caged. It's part of the reason she and Scott grew further apart, because he couldn't deal with that. Who's to say that, by putting those blocks in and reigning in Jean's powers all the time, Xavier didn't actually do more harm than good? We don't know. It wouldn't be the first time, though.

Here's another fact: We don't know what would have happened to Rachel, in control of the PF, if someone like Mastermind screwed around with her mind. Who's to say that she wouldn't have experienced the same exact loss of control? Again, we don't know. Jean went through an entirely different experience as the Phoenix than Rachel did, so it's a bit unfounded to be comparing them and saying "This didn't happen to her, so the other one is better." That's all I'm saying.

 

[javon]

Can someone tell me how can Jean destroy the universe?





And isn't "Cosmic Entity Phoenix" and "Jean grey Phoenix" the same thing since she IS Pheonix?

 

[HandOfFate]

Can someone tell me how can Jean destroy the universe?

She can't the Living Tribunal would stop her.

And isn't "Cosmic Entity Phoenix" and "Jean grey Phoenix" the same thing since she IS Pheonix?

The Phoenix Force is a comsic force that has lived since the dawn of time, while Jean's full mutantion allowed her to tap/become one with the force.

 

[javon]

I had to be sure. Their was a debate and he's like "well it depends..are we talking about "cosmic entity phoenix" or "jean grey phoenix". Thanks HOF. And what do you mean the Living Tribunal would stop her? Who is that? And by A"can she destroy the univere" I mean, if she were alive. How could she destroy it?

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Are you sure you're not just using the movie as the basis for Jean's loss of control?

Here's the fact: We don't know if Professor X's fears were valid. If Mastermind had left her alone, it's quite possible that she would have gone on using her powers without any loss of control at all. In fact, we know that this is more than a possibility since, in Morrison's arc and even a little before then, she was exploring her powers to their fullest potential and doing just fine with it. Jean constantly stated, over the course of decades, that she was tired of everyone being scared of her immense powers and trying to hold her back, that keeping her from really cutting loose just made her feel stifled and caged. It's part of the reason she and Scott grew further apart, because he couldn't deal with that. Who's to say that, by putting those blocks in and reigning in Jean's powers all the time, Xavier didn't actually do more harm than good? We don't know. It wouldn't be the first time, though.

Here's another fact: We don't know what would have happened to Rachel, in control of the PF, if someone like Mastermind screwed around with her mind. Who's to say that she wouldn't have experienced the same exact loss of control? Again, we don't know. Jean went through an entirely different experience as the Phoenix than Rachel did, so it's a bit unfounded to be comparing them and saying "This didn't happen to her, so the other one is better." That's all I'm saying.

No im not useing the movies story line for the bases of my argument nor am I compairing Jean to Rachel stating that shes better but the fact of the matter is since issue 101 of the X-men back in 197 i dont remember she was losing control of the phoenix force since the day she obtained it as the old saying states power corupts and absolute power corupts absolutly . Early on after Jean gets the power we see her making life and death decitions mind wiping Kitty Prides father using her powers more vilontly and this is befor masterminds involvement and Pro-X had fears of what Jean might beable to do when she was like 9 years old they might have been fears but think about it he was sure she could not handle to much power and the phoenix force was to much power for her to handle to much power.And about the morrison arc...that happened long after the mastermind stuff at that point she had learned from her mistakes.The way I see it Jean would have lost control with or without Mastermind.He just sped things up.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Here's another fact: We don't know what would have happened to Rachel, in control of the PF, if someone like Mastermind screwed around with her mind. Who's to say that she wouldn't have experienced the same exact loss of control? Again, we don't know. Jean went through an entirely different experience as the Phoenix than Rachel did, so it's a bit unfounded to be comparing them and saying "This didn't happen to her, so the other one is better." That's all I'm saying.

About Rachel not having some one mess with her mind...remember she came from the days of futures past time she was transformered in to a mutant hound by the U.S.goverment and inslaved to a guy called Ahab.The used drugs and torture to force to hunt down and sometimes kill the X-men ,other super hero friends and family.I would say that a pretty f-up experience about the type to have made lose control.Even though that happened before she became Phoenix 2 but the way I see it she always had the power but was afraid to use it.But I do agree with you on one point...It could all be Pro-X's fault.With all his fears and entering of young Jeans mind to but in psi-dampers he could have done damage that enabled Jeans weakness to the power of the Phoenix...or she could have been efected by the fears that he had and sub-conciously [not sure if I spelled that right]hated him for it...or created a split personality that hated him for not having fate in her to control her powers.
This coold all be because of his messing with Jeans mind when she was a kid.

 

[HandOfFate]

And what do you mean the Living Tribunal would stop her?Who is that? And by A"can she destroy the univere" I mean, if she were alive. How could she destroy it?

The Living Tribunal is like Marvel's version of the judgement of God. It is consider to be the highest level of cosmic power in Marvel's mutil-verse.

So, unless the Pheonix Force is directed by God, she cannot destory a universe without LT stepping in to stop her.

There also the question if other abstract beings like Eternity, Lord Chaos, Master Order, Death and many others would step in before LT is forced to pass judge ment on the force.

 

[rabidfanboy]

The Living Tribunal is like Marvel's version of the judgement of God. It is consider to be the highest level of cosmic power in Marvel's mutil-verse.

So, unless the Pheonix Force is directed by God, she cannot destory a universe without LT stepping in to stop her.

There also the question if other abstract beings like Eternity, Lord Chaos, Master Order, Death and many others would step in before LT is forced to pass judge ment on the force.

Well, let's not forget Eternity telling Jean she/humanity will be the ones to bring the end to the current Universe restarting the cycle. So whose to say if Jean decides to end the universe that's not just her fulfilling her universal duty and thus giving LT no reason to even intervene.

 

[HandOfFate]

Well, let's not forget Eternity telling Jean she/humanity will be the ones to bring the end to the current Universe restarting the cycle. So whose to say if Jean decides to end the universe that's not just her fulfilling her universal duty and thus giving LT no reason to even intervene.

So, humanity not the Phoeinx Force?

 

[rabidfanboy]

All of humanity was seeded with the possibility, but Jean's whole "omega potential" was that she was the ultimate mutation and the only one who reached the final level of mutation. It's been stated a couple times that phoenix is the creation/resurrection force and "the spark that ignites creation and the final fire that consumes all to begin anew" so it's safe to bet Jean will be the one who does it.

 

[Valechan]

D'Spayre toyed with Rachel in more than one occasion. I believe he is far more powerful than puny Mastermind. She didn't turn evil when he toyed with her mind, when he manipulated her.

 

[Cosmic Mind]

that's right...