The Rise of Skywalker JJ Abrams is Writing and Directing Episode IX

[Mask&Cape]

'Star Wars' Director Drama: How J.J. Abrams Jilted Paramount for 'Episode IX'

Pulling Abrams away from a star wars job is probably like trying to pull a rawhide from a rabid mastiff.

As the article points out, even if the Paramount boss did get Abrams back what is the point of trying force a guy to make a movie for you.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Satan can't force a person to do something against their will. He whispers and corrupts but the decision is yours.

Strength comes from resisting evil and choosing your own path. Mara is not able to this unless she gives in and obeys Palpatine.

Plus, the notion of killing something that looks like Luke satisfies the voice in her head is just silly. She knows it isn't him so why is that enough?

Setting that aside, her character up to that point and in the books that followed was nothing special or original.

I've never been a Boba Fett superfan either - he did nothing and had little personality - but I can get how fans got into the character because he looks cool and is mysterious. Personally, he only became interesting in AotC and Clone Wars.

I just don't get what it is about Mara though? Why do you she is "one of the best females"?

I know the list isn't very long them but honestly Mara Jade won't even be at the bottom. I'd put Guri on it and I don't like the idea of robots in people suits. In film and TV, it is just lazy and penny pinching and not an artistic decision or other cliches excuse.

Well it's not exactly subtle suggestion, it wasn't a whisper, it's literally Palpatine's voice screaming in her mind telling her to kill someone. You make it seem like such a small thing, but it was a torment and it's a torment put in place by the most powerful and evil figure within the universe.The fact that she wasn't driven insane by its presence or that she never actually gave in to it despite the fact that she was largely untrained is to me a sign of personal strength.

And as for the whole thing with "Luuke"...it's a fantasy story. Star Wars is firmly within the fantasy genre and that whole aspect was a classic "breaking the spell" trope. It's also a symbolic thing, to show that she had grown past Palpatine's influence and firmly rejected the Empire and the path of venegeance. She kills the clone to save Luke and as a by production she was rewarded.You can argue about how you think it's stupid until the end of days, but it's ultimately a fantasy trope within a fantasy story. It either worked for you or it didn't.

And why do I like Mara? Because I like her additude, I liked her dynamic with Luke and even though it featured in some bad stories, I liked her relationship with Ben. It's not a character that reinvented the wheel, and I'm not clamouring for her return to canon, but I thought she was a fun addition and I enjoyed her presence within the series.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

And as for the whole thing with "Luuke"...it's a fantasy story. Star Wars is firmly within the fantasy genre and that whole aspect was a classic "breaking the spell" trope. It's also a symbolic thing, to show that she had grown past Palpatine's influence and firmly rejected the Empire and the path of vengeance. She kills the clone to save Luke and as a by production she was rewarded.You can argue about how you think it's stupid until the end of days, but it's ultimately a fantasy trope within a fantasy story. It either worked for you or it didn't.

A show? Book? Comics? What's the source of this story?

 

[Roose Bolton]

A book, The Last Command.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

A book, The Last Command.

Thank you, warden.

 

[Mask&Cape]

Well it's not exactly subtle suggestion, it wasn't a whisper, it's literally Palpatine's voice screaming in her mind telling her to kill someone. You make it seem like such a small thing, but it was a torment and it's a torment put in place by the most powerful and evil figure within the universe.The fact that she wasn't driven insane by its presence or that she never actually gave in to it despite the fact that she was largely untrained is to me a sign of personal strength.

No, I never said Palpatine's voice in her head was a "small thing" - it is absolutely a very powerful force exerting influence over her. That is one of the reasons why killing just anything that just looked like Luke was so daft. She knows it is not really Luke, therefore the voice in her head knows, therefore why is that enough to quieten it.

And she did give into it. She had to kill something in order to rid herself of the voice. That is not strength, it is weakness.

And as for the whole thing with "Luuke"...it's a fantasy story. Star Wars is firmly within the fantasy genre and that whole aspect was a classic "breaking the spell" trope. It's also a symbolic thing, to show that she had grown past Palpatine's influence and firmly rejected the Empire and the path of venegeance. She kills the clone to save Luke and as a by production she was rewarded.You can argue about how you think it's stupid until the end of days, but it's ultimately a fantasy trope within a fantasy story. It either worked for you or it didn't.

"It is fantasy" is not a valid argument. Good character development is good character development. And Mara does grow past Palpatine's influence at all - she steps into the fight to save Luke but the voice only stops because she kills the clone, not because she did something good.

And why do I like Mara? Because I like her additude, I liked her dynamic with Luke and even though it featured in some bad stories, I liked her relationship with Ben. It's not a character that reinvented the wheel, and I'm not clamouring for her return to canon, but I thought she was a fun addition and I enjoyed her presence within the series.

You are perfectly entitled to like her but I was asking why you do. The "attitude" and "dynamic" despite the "bad stories" is every answer I've ever seen to the question but no-one ever explains it. I'm not asking for anything in-depth, just a little detail to understand the point of view.

 

[Mask&Cape]

Thank you, warden.

When you see that that name and avatar, you think Warden of the North, but I think this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxu81W1cA44


EDIT: How do I insert a video? Is that not possible here?

 

[Spider-Aziz]

When you see that that name and avatar, you think Warden of the North, but I think this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxu81W1cA44

EDIT: How do I insert a video? Is that not possible here?

Quote me to see how it's done.

Spoiler

[YT]_D0ZQPqeJkk[/YT]

 

[Mask&Cape]

Quote me to see how it's done.

Spoiler

[YT]_D0ZQPqeJkk[/YT]

Thanks.

Any idea what that error is about?

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Any idea what that error is about?

What error?

 

[Roose Bolton]

No, I never said Palpatine's voice in her head was a "small thing" - it is absolutely a very powerful force exerting influence over her. That is one of the reasons why killing just anything that just looked like Luke was so daft. She knows it is not really Luke, therefore the voice in her head knows, therefore why is that enough to quieten it.

And she did give into it. She had to kill something in order to rid herself of the voice. That is not strength, it is weakness.

What you're talking about is an in-universe explaination for how the voice left but-

"It is fantasy" is not a valid argument. Good character development is good character development. And Mara does grow past Palpatine's influence at all - she steps into the fight to save Luke but the voice only stops because she kills the clone, not because she did something good.

-she never killed Luuke to rid herself of Palpatine's voice. She killed Luuke to save Luke's life and stop C'Baoth, that was her primary motivation, not giving into vengeance. The voice leaving was her narrative reward for her getting over her grudge against Luke and choosing to help heroes save the galaxy. The mechanics of how are unimportant in my opinion. I mean, it's a disembodied voice of a dead evil space wizard, I don't think there's supposed to be clear cut explaination or pseudo-science behind it how much it does and doesn't know or how much of it is Mara's mind or some genuine lingering presence of Palpatine.

You are perfectly entitled to like her but I was asking why you do. The "attitude" and "dynamic" despite the "bad stories" is every answer I've ever seen to the question but no-one ever explains it. I'm not asking for anything in-depth, just a little detail to understand the point of view.

Well her attitude is her personality, her dry wit, her fearlessness, the way she approaches situations are entertaining to me. And I like her relationship with Luke, and how her aggressive nature complimented his calm and thoughtful one. And I liked her relationship with Ben. Legacy of the Force sucked for a number of reasons, but there was some good stuff with her and Ben that I believe kept it from being a complete ****show.

But here's the thing I'm curious about, you say you don't understand the fandom Boba Fett has and that you don't like the character (which is fair) but is it really so difficult to comprehend? People like Boba Fett because he looked cool. After the fact people attached substance to him, but it's ultimately just that he was a cool looking baddie.

 

[Mask&Cape]

What error?

does the video I posted play for you?

I play it and it is just static with an error message.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

does the video I posted play for you?

I play it and it is just static with an error message.

You need to remove this part from the youtube link for the video to work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

 

[Mask&Cape]

You need to remove this part from the youtube link for the video to work

Thanks, I'll just leave it as a link. No-one probably cares anyway

 

[Mask&Cape]

What you're talking about is an in-universe explaination for how the voice left but-




-she never killed Luuke to rid herself of Palpatine's voice. She killed Luuke to save Luke's life and stop C'Baoth, that was her primary motivation, not giving into vengeance. The voice leaving was her narrative reward for her getting over her grudge against Luke and choosing to help heroes save the galaxy. The mechanics of how are unimportant in my opinion. I mean, it's a disembodied voice of a dead evil space wizard, I don't think there's supposed to be clear cut explaination or pseudo-science behind it how much it does and doesn't know or how much of it is Mara's mind or some genuine lingering presence of Palpatine.

No, the voice stopped when she killed the clone - if it stopped because she saved Luke then it would have stopped when she stepped in. It happened because she killed.

It has nothing to do with "pseudo-science" - it is about good story telling and good character development. And "it is only space wizards and fantasy" is not an argument in bad stories and characters.

Well her attitude is her personality, her dry wit, her fearlessness, the way she approaches situations are entertaining to me. And I like her relationship with Luke, and how her aggressive nature complimented his calm and thoughtful one. And I liked her relationship with Ben. Legacy of the Force sucked for a number of reasons, but there was some good stuff with her and Ben that I believe kept it from being a complete ****show.

A more complete explanation than anyone has offered before.

I didn't take to that - nothing about her was original and I didn't find her witty, just angry. And the marriage was just bizarre. There was no love story and they got engaged "just because" in a moment that appeared out of nowhere.

But here's the thing I'm curious about, you say you don't understand the fandom Boba Fett has and that you don't like the character (which is fair) but is it really so difficult to comprehend? People like Boba Fett because he looked cool. After the fact people attached substance to him, but it's ultimately just that he was a cool looking baddie.

I didn't say it was difficult to comprehend why people liked him. In fact I stated how I understood how it started. I just didn't get the level of fervour that built up around him as character when he had very little, if any, "substance". And people "attaching substance" that isn't actually there doesn't explain it, just makes an argument that there is no actual personality. I'm also not talking about his design and armour but the devotion around the character himself.

I'm not saying people should "get a grip" - far from it. More power to them, in fact. I just don't get people who think there was a personality in him in those original films.

On a connected issue, where does the belief that Boba Fett and Han Solo are long rivals come from? The EU gave Fett a grudge because of the Sarlacc thing but a lot of fans seem to think there is a very long history between the two based on the OT and that Fett has to be in the Han Solo movie.

 

[Roose Bolton]

No, the voice stopped when she killed the clone - if it stopped because she saved Luke then it would have stopped when she stepped in. It happened because she killed.

It has nothing to do with "pseudo-science" - it is about good story telling and good character development. And "it is only space wizards and fantasy" is not an argument in bad stories and characters.

What I'm saying is, Timothy Zahn the writer had the voice leave Mara after she killed the Force-using villains of that trilogy because narratively he was conveying that she had turned a corner when she helped Luke, Han and Leia win and that she had found peace in that. The in-universe explaination is that the voice was satisfied by the death of Luuke, but that's not necessarily what's important to the story itself. It certainly wasn't presented that Mara killed Luuke to relieve herself of her torment, rather it was shown as an unexpected side effect she had helped win the day. So the way I see it, killing Luuke to save someone else =/= giving into Palpatine.

A more complete explanation than anyone has offered before.

I didn't take to that - nothing about her was original and I didn't find her witty, just angry. And the marriage was just bizarre. There was no love story and they got engaged "just because" in a moment that appeared out of nowhere.

I didn't say she was original, and quite frankly I personally don't need every new character to be some complete reinvention. The fierce, snarky warrior woman trope is a well established one, but not one that I tire of and not one that I found to be done badly by Zahn, Stackpole, Luceno etc. I found her dry wit to be humorous, I saw underpinnings of romantic tension in her interactions with Luke, at least seeds of it in some of those early works so I wasn't put off by the storyline that followed. Ultimately I don't think she was badly written, or that the majority of the stories she appeared in were badly written. You might well disagree, but fundamentally that just comes down to subjective taste.

I didn't say it was difficult to comprehend why people liked him. In fact I stated how I understood how it started. I just didn't get the level of fervour that built up around him as character when he had very little, if any, "substance". And people "attaching substance" that isn't actually there doesn't explain it, just makes an argument that there is no actual personality. I'm also not talking about his design and armour but the devotion around the character himself.

I'm not saying people should "get a grip" - far from it. More power to them, in fact. I just don't get people who think there was a personality in him in those original films.

I personally don't believe Boba Fett's fandom is all that big among the younger generations, and I think his popularity is a thing of a certain time (when the OT was originally released) that started off purely because he looked cool and people where intrigued by him. That fandom was cemented when authors started using him in novels and started depicting him as an Anti-heroic figure, "substance" that was added by those books that didn't really reflect what was on screen. It's endured and kind of become accepted among the fanbase that he's a cool character, but I believe his days of being the ensemble darkhorse of Star Wars are over.

 

[Sithborg]

Though, I feel like a lot of the EU around those last few years took a nose dive of quality, Traviss/Denning's whole thing with Jacen and Legacy of the Force being one of the more serious offenders. Luceno's Plagueis was probably the last "great" novel to come out before the Disney deal, at least in my opinion.

Though, the the clear feud playing out between Denning and Traviss in their LOTF books was a sight to behold, even if it ruin the whole series.

Though Traviss's idea of a fight between Jedi and Sith should not have a lightsaber battle lines up with her #$@! Jedi philosophy.

 

[Mask&Cape]

What I'm saying is, Timothy Zahn the writer had the voice leave Mara after she killed the Force-using villains of that trilogy because narratively he was conveying that she had turned a corner when she helped Luke, Han and Leia win and that she had found peace in that. The in-universe explaination is that the voice was satisfied by the death of Luuke, but that's not necessarily what's important to the story itself. It certainly wasn't presented that Mara killed Luuke to relieve herself of her torment, rather it was shown as an unexpected side effect she had helped win the day. So the way I see it, killing Luuke to save someone else =/= giving into Palpatine.

So you agree she gave into Palpatine? That is what I've been saying.

I don't think I said or implied that Mara killed the clone with the intention to free herself of the last command, because that is neither what I've ever believed nor is that stated in the book. I was simply stating that the act of killing a clone Luke instead of the real Luke is what set her free was, in regards to storytelling, just plain daft and simplistic, and in regards to the character, it makes her weak minded because she could not free herself by force of will and had to kill somebody. And the fact that killing the clone wiped away nearly of her animosity towards the man was equally silly.

Narratively and in-universe is actually the same thing here. It is daft and simplistic in both.

Using your comparison to Satan, it is like the devil tempting a man to kill a rival. The man resists for years but then kills his rivals brother. Has that man showed strength?

I didn't say she was original, and quite frankly I personally don't need every new character to be some complete reinvention. The fierce, snarky warrior woman trope is a well established one, but not one that I tire of and not one that I found to be done badly by Zahn, Stackpole, Luceno etc. I found her dry wit to be humorous, I saw underpinnings of romantic tension in her interactions with Luke, at least seeds of it in some of those early works so I wasn't put off by the storyline that followed. Ultimately I don't think she was badly written, or that the majority of the stories she appeared in were badly written. You might well disagree, but fundamentally that just comes down to subjective taste.

Yes, of course it comes down to personal opinions but that is why we have discussions

I personally don't believe Boba Fett's fandom is all that big among the younger generations, and I think his popularity is a thing of a certain time (when the OT was originally released) that started off purely because he looked cool and people where intrigued by him. That fandom was cemented when authors started using him in novels and started depicting him as an Anti-heroic figure, "substance" that was added by those books that didn't really reflect what was on screen. It's endured and kind of become accepted among the fanbase that he's a cool character, but I believe his days of being the ensemble darkhorse of Star Wars are over.

It was the older generation that I was talking about, but I think the fervour started look before those books.

Again, yes he looks cool and that is a large part of his appeal and the part I understand, but there is a large group who believes their is more substance to him than there actually is, even before you ad the EU stuff.

Are you saying that Fett's "15 minutes" are up now?

I'm not against a movie about, or featuring, Fett but I'd rather Lucasfilm moved the stand alones into the new era and create new bounty hunters who look cool.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Though, the the clear feud playing out between Denning and Traviss in their LOTF books was a sight to behold, even if it ruin the whole series.

Though Traviss's idea of a fight between Jedi and Sith should not have a lightsaber battle lines up with her #$@! Jedi philosophy.

Traviss in general seems like she went off the deep end as far as the whole franchise goes. Her whole...boycott, I guess, against Lucas for changing the Mandalorians and the Fetts seemed a tad extreme. The overall impression I get of her is that she liked the Mandos far more than the rest of the franchise lol

 

[Mask&Cape]

Though, the the clear feud playing out between Denning and Traviss in their LOTF books was a sight to behold, even if it ruin the whole series.

Though Traviss's idea of a fight between Jedi and Sith should not have a lightsaber battle lines up with her #$@! Jedi philosophy.

What was the feud? How did play out on the pages?

I fell behind in the old EU early in the Yuuzhan Vong storyline and never got back into it - not because I disliked it though (I really liked that they tried something new instead of dark Jedi and the Empire) but I just didn't have the time. So I never got near Legacy.

 

[Mask&Cape]

Traviss in general seems like she went off the deep end as far as the whole franchise goes. Her whole...boycott, I guess, against Lucas for changing the Mandalorians and the Fetts seemed a tad extreme. The overall impression I get of her is that she liked the Mandos far more than the rest of the franchise lol

How does a person boycott Lucas? Especially when you are writing Star Wars?

 

[Sithborg]

What was the feud? How did play out on the pages?

I fell behind in the old EU early in the Yuuzhan Vong storyline and never got back into it - not because I disliked it though (I really liked that they tried something new instead of dark Jedi and the Empire) but I just didn't have the time. So I never got near Legacy.

It was a bit of a yoyo over Caedus's and Luke's depictions. Caedus in particular. One wrote him as a Sith Lord. One wrote him as a compassionate military leader. Meanwhile, Alliston is in the corner writing fun X-wing fights.

 

[Mask&Cape]

It was a bit of a yoyo over Caedus's and Luke's depictions. Caedus in particular. One wrote him as a Sith Lord. One wrote him as a compassionate military leader. Meanwhile, Alliston is in the corner writing fun X-wing fights.

Wasn't there anyone watching over the series?

Did the fans speak out at the time?

 

[Sithborg]

Wasn't there anyone watching over the series?

Did the fans speak out at the time?

No idea. I think, in order to keep the quite exciting premise they had announced, and to try and keep Traviss as a talent, editing just made sure grammar and spelling was correct.

 

[Roose Bolton]

So you agree she gave into Palpatine? That is what I've been saying.

I don't think I said or implied that Mara killed the clone with the intention to free herself of the last command, because that is neither what I've ever believed nor is that stated in the book. I was simply stating that the act of killing a clone Luke instead of the real Luke is what set her free was, in regards to storytelling, just plain daft and simplistic, and in regards to the character, it makes her weak minded because she could not free herself by force of will and had to kill somebody. And the fact that killing the clone wiped away nearly of her animosity towards the man was equally silly.

Narratively and in-universe is actually the same thing here. It is daft and simplistic in both.

Using your comparison to Satan, it is like the devil tempting a man to kill a rival. The man resists for years but then kills his rivals brother. Has that man showed strength?

I believe her actions appeased the voice in her head, but I don't consider it a weakness on her part. The books never presented there being any way to cast off whatever Palpatine had done to her, and I believe within the context of those books we are meant to believe that it couldn't be undone

To use the devil analogy (though perhaps I should have said Morgoth as the devil isn't nearly as physically forceful as Palpatine), it was satan torturing someone for five years in the attempt to get them to kill a man, that person refusing and enduring the torture further, and then killing a similar looking man in defence of another and the devil being fooled into believing it was the one he wanted dead. It's an act of heroism on Mara's behalf, a shortsightedness on Palpatine's voice.


And speaking to the actual clone thing, I do think in context of the Trilogy itself it made sense, as clones weren't in and of themselves depicted as the individualistic life forms that Lucas showed them as. The clones in the Thrawn Trilogy were all exact doubles of the original, to such an extent that it caused a feedback in the Force that could only be avoided by Ysalamiri. Mara may have consciously known that the man she had killed was a clone, but given how weird Luuke read to the others in the Force, I think the inadvertent Force-chicanery made sense in how it overcame the last command. In context to the franchise as it exists at this point now, I think it's outdated with the nature of the Force, but I don't fault the story itself for that.

It was the older generation that I was talking about, but I think the fervour started look before those books.

Again, yes he looks cool and that is a large part of his appeal and the part I understand, but there is a large group who believes their is more substance to him than there actually is, even before you ad the EU stuff.

Are you saying that Fett's "15 minutes" are up now?

I'm not against a movie about, or featuring, Fett but I'd rather Lucasfilm moved the stand alones into the new era and create new bounty hunters who look cool.

I think that comes from ESB. Fett had a decent sized role as an effective henchman for Vader with an air of mystery in that, and the fans probably assumed going forward he would be a bigger deal than he was. It was probably a kind of hype that built in those three years before RotJ came out that his ignominious appearance didn't fully dispel. 7 or 8 years later (or whenever he showed up again in the EU material) they kind of got the validation they were looking for when he actually did stuff.

But honestly, at this point I think Fett is just fanservice to that particular range of fans. I wouldn't mind him showing up in an Underworld/crime based film but I don't think he should get a film anymore than say, Darth Maul should.

How does a person boycott Lucas? Especially when you are writing Star Wars?

She walked away from a project that she was originally going to write for Lucasfilm, and to my knowledge she hasn't written anything since.