SolidSnakeMGS said:
Well, that's fine if you're prejudging someone on previous works. We all do it. But you need to take into consideration something which you already know; Ottman is basing his score around previously existing Williams material.
So? Both Ken Thorne and Alexander Courage did the exact same thing. In the Case of Courage, John Williams actually came in and composed new material. (I liked the new material I just hated the conducting and performance of it) In general My Gripe with Ottman is more than Disliking his Compositions. I hate his conducting and Orchestrations. The Superman Theme and all of Williams' works could be in the movie, but that doesn't stop the fact that it will sound horrible to me.
Performance is Key.
You apparently love Williams and hate Ottman's original work, so this score should be looking pretty good for you since it hits this balance.
Just to be Clear once again. None of thatMatters if John Williams (or another Competent Composer I.e. William Ross or David Arnold) isn't Scoring the movie.
I don't Like Ottman's Style
I don't Like his Conducting
I don't Like How his Pieces are performed
It's not going to matter that he is using Williams' Material. It will just sound like a bad rerecording. I'm sure that you have listened to bad rerecordings of scores that you like. That's what I'm talking about.
It isn't your "vibe" I'm questioning. If you feel 'March of the Villains is dark, then I have to question your experience or perception.
I might have misspoke but at the same time I think you are missunderstanding the context. When I meant Dark I don't mean "Imperial March" Dark, I mean That it carries Villainous undertones. I would equate it to Jabba's Theme in Return of the Jedi. (IIRC, that also was mainly performed by Tuba, yet it Represented a Villain)
The FIRST time we see Otis, we hear the Villains theme.
The theme stops, and then starts back up shortly after when Otis is inside the tunnel going to Lex's lair, as he begins to eat.
The FIRST time we see Lex, we do NOT hear the Villains theme. We hear a small little incidental pull of strings.
The next time we hear the Villains theme is when we see Otis again after Lex and Co. have flipped the car to stop the military convoy. The theme continues as he makes his way to and climbs up the truck carrying the missle.
Next we see the Army men gathered around Ms Teschmacher who is acting as the distraction. The theme is basically atmospheric here without any real theme.
Again, we see Otis and hear the Villains theme as he inputs the code to the missile.
We see Lex again AND still NO Villains theme.
However, as Otis bounds down from the hill to regroup, we AGAIN hear the Villains theme, and it ends almost exactly as he gets into the van and we see Luthor.
All examples that could easily be explained away. Simply speaking, Those examples are simply showcasing the acts of villainy occuring with Otis commiting most of the acts. That to me doesn't show much, and just proves the point I was making, it's a general Theme that Represents all villainous acts committed by or through the main Villain, Lex Luthor.
The only time we hear anything close to the Villains march when Lex is onscreen is after he dumps Superman into the pool with the necklace of Kryptonite. The theme is slower, lower, and does what I call a 'Williams short-stop' where the theme doesn't finish but instead rolls into a slight downbeat flourish. He doesn't even get the complete motiff.
Well he doesn't really need to. The point I assume he (and Donner) wanted was to showcase it in a more ominous way to state that Lex has Superman subdued.
It doesn't really matter how Long it is used so much that it is used to Represent the Villains.
Now I may be missing some stuff, but I think the above is fairly accurate and complete.
There are others But I don't totally recall either. But Throughtout after Superman escape****hor, it is used in competition with The Superman March. (A duel of themes Hero vs Villain)
I have no argument about that, but it doesn't really relate because Williams focuses his motiff just about exclusively on Otis, as I have pointed out.
No he doesn't. Again as I have said again and Again, the Theme Represents the most dominant forms of Villainy in the the movie. Your list doesn't really prove anything more than that, which still makes my list and Arguments valid.
My first soundtrack was Williams. I have most of his stuff. Of course I know this. But any Williams fan would also know that he sometimes deviates from his formula and likes to mix it up occasionally.
While I agree Williams Likes to mix it up from time to time, he still often uses one theme at times to represent what is occurring onscreen. That was the point I was making. For example, When Williams First introduced the Imperial March, it was showcasing a Star Destroyer onscreen dispatching Probes. It was a quieter take, but Ominous. The second time was seeing the Imperial Fleet in all it's glory: There we got a Powerful, Militaristic rendition of it since it's showing the Empire's Might. When it Represents Vader it's far more ominous and very Brooding.
I can Site The Fact that The March of the Villains was in fact used in the sequels to Represent Luthor as Proof that it is more Luthor's theme. However, That is Problematic, b/c one of the big problems with the Adaptations of the Superman scores had a tendancy of using some of the Themes from STM in the wrong context. Although, Alexander Courage however didn't really make that mistake so much and he used March of the Villains for Lex.
When Lex kills the cop, you do not hear a Villains theme. You pretty much just hear an unrelated theme of peril that has no real part of the Villians theme in it nor is it a part of the Villains theme.
Wrong. You get a String Representation of the Villain March. Your probably not hearing too well b/c of the Train. But it's on the Album. (However, it might not have been used in the Film)
No, I'm not forgetting anything. When you say the Villains theme is for Luthor, I disagree.
I did say that that the theme was strictly Luthor's theme. I said that it was a General theme that Represents the main threats in the movie. Since the main bad guy is Luthor, he get's top billing for it. But I never said that it was strictly his theme any more than I say that The Imperial March is Strictly Vader's Theme.
It's almost completely used for Otis and the campier, more comedic moments, just as I disagree when you say the theme itself is dark and stealthy. It is not, and is about 95% used in campy moments.
Context, Context, Context!! Comedic when it it refers to Otis's Bumbling antics but more menacing when used on Luthor.
And to remind you (So you you don't keep running with the notion That I think March of the Villain is a dark theme) I don't think it's Dark in the way
you think
I think it is. I meant that it is a menacing Theme. It clearly sounds like a villain theme. Especially when you listen to the March of the Villains track. The String element denote a menacing element to it.
What exactly did he say to make you think that?
The "Otis" Theme Nonsense. And the Notion that Film Scores get Dated.
