The Dark Knight Joker's origin

[AshtonFoster]

No origin...But I wouldnt mind some flashbacks towards the end of the film. If there is the envitable connection between Joker and Batman, it should be told towards the end before their final battle. For example the Joker speaking to Batman, and telling him how Batman made him (to Batman's shock and dismay)- and that in itself could be the orgin story, without actually being told in the normal way.

 

[SatanBurger]

that's pretty much what scarecrow was in begins. let's try something different.

Mighty christ you're dense. Obviously the ability to look at the dynamics of a film without seeing everything in two different extremes is a talent you lack, so I'm done trying. It's like arguing with a brick wall.

 

[Dark Knight]

he should be a family man....who was down on his luck as a comedian and was trapped into a patsy role for a Falcone mission.....where he fell into chemicals. His family was killed practically in front of him by Falcone or his thugs.....something like that. We need to see Joker go through tragedy to what caused him to be a homicidal lunatic. Preferably in flashback form. Can you imagine an intense crazy Penn dueling with diolouge with Bale?? Oh boy...

 

[The Kid]

Mighty christ you're dense. Obviously the ability to look at the dynamics of a film without seeing everything in two different extremes is a talent you lack, so I'm done trying. It's like arguing with a brick wall.

why are you flaming me? I know what I am, who I am and how dense I am. To conquer idiocy one must become an idiot. I make no claims to be any other way, never have.

However, the origin of the joker is something I'm all for. Give us something good, nolan.

 

[mongo44]

I’m on the fence with this discussion (should they or shouldn’t they). My issue with origin plots is the origin mires down too much valuable story telling time. It kind of reminds me of telling my 3 year old a story: why is he like that, why is his hair green, why is he laughing, etc.

I would rather just jump right into the story. Never acknowledge anything about his name, origins, or motivation. Let’s just have a knock down drag out Batman VS. Joker story. And if they don’t kill him it leaves the door open down the road for a story that alludes to the Joker’s beginnings. Imagine the plot potentials if nothing is given. Makes for a better mystery and detective story. Bats is frustrated that he can not get a handle on this guy. He doesn’t know who he is, etc, etc.

The other reason I don’t want an origin story is two fold. First it was already done in 89. Secondly Joker’s true origins are speculative at best. Because of his motivations, are we positive that he became that way from falling into chemicals? I prefer that the chemical accident is a good theory to hold on to but only a theory not fact.

 

[Rynan]

^ Agree. Mystery > Origin.

I look forward to a drag out Batman vs. Joker story, without stuff getting in the way.

 

[souvlaki]

but having batman be blamed for joker's condition is an essential part of the character that I don't want to just poof vanish now...

How is it an essential part of the character? The Red Hood incident still isn't even neccessarily cannon in modern Batman continuity. The Joker's origin, for the most part, is unknown. He even says in Killing Joke something to the effect of "sometimes I remember it this way, sometimes another way. If I am going to have memories, I prefer to have them be multiple choice". The only one that really knows is the Joker. Batman has said a few times he somewhat suspects a connection between Red Hood and the Joker, but that's about it. So really, the only way Batman has ever really been blamed for the Joker's existance is through the whole "escalation" thing that Gordon spoke of in BB.

 

[GL1]

Multiple choice... it's the reason I hated Batman 89, cuz the Joker stopped being a force of nature and became a personal vendetta between two man... it shrinks the universe... and I hate it when they shrink the universe... it's one thing to connect their pasts... it's another to make them schoolyard enemies...

 

[Clarkman]

For now, i don't want a full-blown origin. But i definitely wanna see the Red Hood incident being mentioned. Maybe as a police report that Gordon receives from his men (Det. Montoya and Harvey Bullock, maybe?).
I'd also like to hear the name Jack Napier in a Batman-Gordon conversation. None of this should be directly linked to The Joker though. Jack Napier could be his real name but it could also be a low-profile stand-up comedian. The origin should remain in mystery, but there should be all kinds of hints for Batman do the digging through BB2 and BB3. And we can be sure that the hints will be there. I really hope to see even more detective work from Batman's part.
Oh, The Joker giving the "bad day" speech and trying to tantalize/torture Gordon into the wacko side is a must.

 

[mongo44]

For now, i don't want a full-blown origin. But i definitely wanna see the Red Hood incident being mentioned. Maybe as a police report that Gordon receives from his men (Det. Montoya and Harvey Bullock, maybe?).
I'd also like to hear the name Jack Napier in a Batman-Gordon conversation. None of this should be directly linked to The Joker though. Jack Napier could be his real name but it could also be a low-profile stand-up comedian. The origin should remain in mystery, but there should be all kinds of hints for Batman do the digging through BB2 and BB3. And we can be sure that the hints will be there. I really hope to see even more detective work from Batman's part.
Oh, The Joker giving the "bad day" speech and trying to tantalize/torture Gordon into the wacko side is a must.

I don't like the name Jack Napier. That showed up first in Batman 89. I don't want his real name.

 

[Clarkman]

Mongo44, first of all: funny sig.

The way i see it, Jack Napier wouldn't be his real name. His origin would remain in mystery, with clues all over the place (like Red Hood being cited, and the name Jack Napier). Everytime Batman investigates about The Joker, the only thing he would get would be more mystery. Think about it: if the world's greatest detective can't find a thing about a villain, this must be the scariest and most f***ed up villain ever.

It was created in B89, but TAS has also used the name Jack Napier as The Joker's real name. I don't know about the current comics though. Even though i love Batman, i'm more of a Superman follower. I know that Joker's name and age are officially unknown, but can anyone tell if they ever used the name Napier in the comics?

 

[mongo44]

Mongo44, first of all: funny sig.

The way i see it, Jack Napier wouldn't be his real name. His origin would remain in mystery, with clues all over the place (like Red Hood being cited, and the name Jack Napier). Everytime Batman investigates about The Joker, the only thing he would get would be more mystery. Think about it: if the world's greatest detective can't find a thing about a villain, this must be the scariest and most f***ed up villain ever.

It was created in B89, but TAS has also used the name Jack Napier as The Joker's real name. I don't know about the current comics though. Even though i love Batman, i'm more of a Superman follower. I know that Joker's name and age are officially unknown, but can anyone tell if they ever used the name Napier in the comics?

Jack Napier and Joe Napier are the only names ever used as far as I know. The first time a name was given was B89.



I agree with the mystery/detective aspect. I really want a good one in a Batman movie. I think they can do a Joker story in the next movie. Follow it up with another villain for the third. Then readdress the Joker in say the 4th or 5th movie. Then reveal something about him that far down.



(thanks about the signature. That is the actual lines from the movie referenced).

 

[Bad Superman]

It can go both ways. Since the Joker was "introduced" at the end of BB, the script could be done via flashback or Joker origin. I would like an extended flash back origin with a darker approach of the character. Since Joker is Batman's arch-nemesis, his hatred for Bats should be explained too.

 

[Dark Knight]

full blown origin for Joker would not be the way to go. Batman should not find out why Joker became who he is until near the end, during the climactic battle. It should be done with words....with Joker telling Batman, (with very intense emotion) what happened to him and his family at the hands of Falcone and his thugs. When Joker is telling Batman what happened to him and his family.....the scenes should be shown in flashback form. I can already envision Penn going crazy with intense emotion in a scene like this.....

 

[mongo44]

full blown origin for Joker would not be the way to go. Batman should not find out why Joker became who he is until near the end, during the climactic battle. It should be done with words....with Joker telling Batman, (with very intense emotion) what happened to him and his family at the hands of Falcone and his thugs. When Joker is telling Batman what happened to him and his family.....the scenes should be shown in flashback form. I can already envision Penn going crazy with intense emotion in a scene like this.....

But what you have described is a totally different version than all the others (and if I remember right introduced in TAS, not the comics). There is no one definitive story I like it that way better. There are about a dozen different versions. It’s multiple choice remember. So under this idea we should have a unique origin.

 

[souvlaki]

Argh.... the Joker's name is not Jack Napier, people!

 

[The Kid]

It can go both ways. Since the Joker was "introduced" at the end of BB, the script could be done via flashback or Joker origin. I would like an extended flash back origin with a darker approach of the character. Since Joker is Batman's arch-nemesis, his hatred for Bats should be explained too.

Hey, B-S now that would be terrific.

 

[The Kid]

Argh.... the Joker's name is not Jack Napier, people!

It's a good name. he should use it.

 

[Alfie Luke]

How 'bout this guys...

Don't mention Joker's history in BB2, have it be a mystery. Then, in BB3 when he's on trial for what he did, have the people in the court, including his lawyer try to figure out what happened to him.

On one part, you have people that think he's evil, on the other people that think he's a victim, misunderstood or just plain crazy. That way, you have the "multiple choice" scenario, as his past is sucha blur, that no one REALLY knowns what made him the way he is...

Everyone should be trying to get inside his head, with no success...
He would just be sitting there patiently, with a f**king big smile. LOL

 

[Dark Knight]

How 'bout this guys...

Don't mention Joker's history in BB2, have it be a mystery. Then, in BB3 when he's on trial for what he did, have the people in the court, including his lawyer try to figure out what happened to him.

On one part, you have people that think he's evil, on the other people that think he's a victim, misunderstood or just plain crazy. That way, you have the "multiple choice" scenario, as his past is sucha blur, that no one REALLY knowns what made him the way he is...

Everyone should be trying to get inside his head, with no success...
He would just be sitting there patiently, with a f**king big smile. LOL

keeping it a mystery as long as possible would be good....however, i think they should show his origin through flashback near the end of the film during the climactic battle with Batman. When it is shown through flashback it should be very dark, disturbing and tragic.

 

[Rynan]

Flashbacks? Phff. This isn't a Joker movie nor The Killing Joke, so I don't see why we need them. I perfer Alfie Luke's idea. I can see The Joker's defense comes up with a story(out of thin air) for their client, to make him look like a poor victim of circumstance, that he can't decerne right from wrong. He needs our acceptance and help, instead of our hate and revoulsion. Then he will be Dent's witness...

And for The Joker's name, how about this: John Doe. Or maybe in the flair of the comic: Joe Kerr.

 

[Timstuff]

In Batman the Animated Series, they refer to the Joker's real name as being "Jack Napier" on multiple occasions. I could care less if they use it in the film or not, they have already established that he was NOT the man who killed Bruce's parents, so it will not hurt anything if it gets used again.

 

[Clarkman]

Exactly.
Since it's (correctly) established that the Waynes were killed by Joe Chill, it wouldn't be so harmful to use the name Jack Napier, as TAS has already done.
But, i still think if the name is used, it should be as just another piece of the puzzle. It should never be defined if his name is or isn't Jack Napier.

 

[COMPO]

i think joker should be a mystery, but, they should different origins from the comics like in one point they think that he is leslie thompkins' son, but, we find out leslie's son died years. then, batman thinks taht he made Joker from a heist a few months back and at the end Joker tells batman the Killing Joke origin. Batman believes him only for joker to laugh at him and call him gullible. So Joker remains a mystery but, we still get the origins in some way.

 

[bstringer]

remember, at the end if Batman Begins, the joker had already a double homicide record, and was already leaving joker cards at the scene of his crimes...leaves me to beleive that he doesnt need an origin, because he already is the joker before The Dark Knight even begins