The Dark Knight Rises Joseph Gordon-Levitt as John Blake V

[Just_Human]

There's a difference between killing and murder.

As long as Batman never murders, you're kind of in the clear.

That's why people make such a fuss over Ra's and not Two-Face; Batman killed Two-Face, but he didn't murder him. Ra's...not so much.

Yup

If Batman can absolutely avoid killing, he will avoid it

 

[Travesty]

Batman uses weapons on Batwing in B89, and he's a killer.

Batman uses weapons on The Bat in TDKR, and it's the drivers fault.

 

[regwec]

Same with his murder of The Joker in B89 vs his murder of Two Face in TDK, I suppose.

 

[DerTommissar]

THE SHAPE'S post a page ago clearly sums up Batman's "No Guns, No Killing" policy in the Nolanverse. Well done!

 

[craigdbfan]

Yeah, Blake was a cop. He killed those men (out of self-defense) before fully becoming 'Robin', so to speak.

As far as Batman killing people in this series, people greatly overreact about this whole thing. Batman (in Nolan's series) never killed anyone directly. By that, I mean with the intention to murder another person. Most deaths which were cause by Batman could be considered "collateral damage" during times of great distress..except for Ra's, which Nolan even admitted he was on the fence about. In TDKR, the death of the truck driver was due to Batman frantically attempting to avert a nuclear disaster. He was trying to get the truck to change its course by shooting his cannons in the truck's path. If anything, it's the truck driver's fault for not changing course and driving straight onwards (under Talia's orders).

Dent died as Batman made a last-second dive to save a young boy from a madman. Now, if Dent was standing there by himself and Batman shoulder-bumped him off the ledge, that would be murder. Instead, Batman did exactly the right thing by essentially tackling Dent and grabbing the boy.

My point is that Batman hasn't killed anyone in cold blood. His rule is no guns, no killing...and he has stuck by that in this series. He hasn't aimed a weapon at someone with the mindset of "I'm going to kill this person" (as Batman did in B'89 when aiming his Batwing missiles directly at the Joker). But there are casualties in every war and Batman does fight a war on crime. His casualties are clearly unintention and sometimes unavoidable.

Note -- Any deaths he caused when escaping from the LOS headquarters in BB should be considered out of self-defense. He wasn't going to murder the man they set before him. Upon realizing that he was living among a radical group of 'murdering psychopaths', he reacted quickly and did he was had to do to orchestrate his own escape to safety. Shouldn't be considered murder by any means.

Well said.

 

[DerTommissar]

About Talia's truck driver...

My interpretation:

The Bat fires lighter incendiary projectiles that burst into flame against Talia's windshield. Her panicked driver loses the wheel. (A heart attack?) Talia steers the truck.

If they were the Bat's standard missile warheads the truck's cab would be blown open. It's clear the windshield is not even knocked out later when the truck drives off the edge.

The Bat was designed for urban pacification and my guess is it has many multipurpose armaments and tools.

And the shooting script backs me up: GORDON KILLS THE DRIVER. These shots were obviously cut, but no less reveal Nolan's intentions:

INT. BLACK TRUCK - CONTINUOUS
Gordon climbs out the back of the truck but is immediately
strafed by gunfire from the Tumblers. He dives back inside,
moves to the front of the trailer - looks at the bulkhead,
gauging the driver’s position. Starts firing blind through
the bulkhead -

INT. CAB, BLACK TRUCK - CONTINUOUS
Bullets fly through the cab. The driver takes one, falls
forward, dead. Talia takes the wheel - bullets keep coming.

 

[jonnywhc]

The trucks windscreen is 100% intact after the driver dies..its like the explosions give him a heart attack, imo.

 

[Deserana]

The trucks windscreen is 100% intact after the driver dies..its like the explosions give him a heart attack, imo.

I dunno why they didn't just do what was in the script.

 

[jonnywhc]

Yep..woulda taken about 2 seconds to show Gordon taking afew shots.

 

[Human Torch]

They could've just let Catwoman shoot the truck driver,since she didn't seem to have any problem with killing.

 

[The Guard]

Or they could have just shown Talia driving it and driving the thing off a bridge...since that's what happened anyway. The driver getting shot kind of didn't matter in the end.

 

[DerTommissar]

The trucks windscreen is 100% intact after the driver dies..its like the explosions give him a heart attack, imo.

Not bad!

A plausible explaination for this final cut of the film, (versus what is in the shooting script).

 

[Texas Zombie]

Remember when batman rams head first into that dump truck in tdk and the entire driver portion of the vehicle is gone.

Sounds like vehicular mandslaughter or assault with a deadly weapon if he doesn't have a good lawyer.

Either way batman has killed many people.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

Batman was trying to kill Talia and the driver I believe, absolutely...and the others in the Tumblers. But that was to save 12 million people, it's justified when these people want to suicide bomb themselves up anyway.

 

[regwec]

While what you say is logical and correct, it remains true that comic-book Batman would be unable to make that decision, or that the story would be contrived to prevent him having to do so.

For me, a cornerstone of Batman's appeal is that he is the consummate badass, but with a sentimental corner of his soul, and he can't kill.

 

[HighFivingMF]

Remember when batman rams head first into that dump truck in tdk and the entire driver portion of the vehicle is gone.

Sounds like vehicular mandslaughter or assault with a deadly weapon if he doesn't have a good lawyer.

Either way batman has killed many people.

No body. No mention of body. No dead guy.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Batman was trying to kill Talia and the driver I believe, absolutely...and the others in the Tumblers. But that was to save 12 million people, it's justified when these people want to suicide bomb themselves up anyway.

But that's not Batman though, is it? Batman says things like "Murder, through my own hand or not is a violation of my very soul".

 

[Texas Zombie]

I didn't see batman trying to kill anyone in any scene in any one of Nolan's creation, par ra's and joker.

Both of them he put into the situation in which they would meet there doom, but only joker he saved. I think this was not a spontaneous growth of character but instead he had grown as a hero(his conscience was now solid).

In the last film he was trying not kill them but had to disable the vehicle via bullets, and he was trying to take out the engine clearly.

But it is pretty clear and cut batman murdered the ***** outta ra's.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

I didn't see batman trying to kill anyone in any scene in any one of Nolan's creation, par ra's and joker.

Both of them he put into the situation in which they would meet there doom, but only joker he saved. I think this was not a spontaneous growth of character but instead he had grown as a hero(his conscience was now solid).

In the last film he was trying not kill them but had to disable the vehicle via bullets, and he was trying to take out the engine clearly.

But it is pretty clear and cut batman murdered the ***** outta ra's.

I didn't see "not rescuing someone during a fight with him to protect millions of innocent people" as clear and cut murder. What was he going to do? Try to save Ra's, only to have Ra's jam a shank into Batman's neck?

Eff that.

 

[The Guard]

Look, can we just drop it before we get into this discussion again?

Inevitably, people will state that Batman not saving someone and his actions not leading directly to their death is killing them, but that tackling them off a ledge or shooting them with cannons isn't.

I blame cartoons.

Technically, Gordon killed Ra's with his actions to destroy the train tracks, but Ra's contributed by sabotaging the train's controls.

Batman just didn't save him. Out of character perhaps, but not murder or killing.

 

[terry78]

I'll leave it alone after this, but if you have the opportunity to save someone from death and you don't, you're not a murderer per se, but you're an accessory to the death. If it's down to self preservation, then **** 'em.

 

[Travesty]

Technically, Gordon killed Ra's with his actions to destroy the train tracks, but Ra's contributed by sabotaging the train's controls.

Batman just didn't save him. Out of character perhaps, but not murder or killing.

Actually, Batman told Gordon to blow the tracks, so Batman knew that the train was going to be derailed. So yes, he killed Ra's.

 

[The Guard]

No.

Batman had Gordon blow the tracks in case the train couldn't be stopped.

If you tell someone what to do, even if you give them a weapon and the means to do so, you are not the person who did the killing.

 

[Travesty]

No.

Batman had Gordon blow the tracks in case the train couldn't be stopped.

-"who said anything about stopping...you never learned, to mind your surroundings"

 

[regwec]

You would then be guilty of conspiracy to murder, and being an accessory to it. Gordon was acting as Batman's agent, and Batman probably had a fuller understanding of the consequences, so much of the liability would lie with him.