Live-Action The Little Mermaid

[Closerframe]

Any movie with a casting controversy usually ends up being crap and/or it bombs at the box office. The list is long. This will likely not escape that.

I'm assuming you think Aladdin, The Dark Knight, and Spider-Man (just to name a few) were box-office bombs....

 

[LvtLeeTDK]

How about a Black Superman that is not Clark Kent ? Like Hal Jordan and John Stewart, they're both Green Lantern. It's the best choice

 

[Legendver2]

How about a Black Superman that is not Clark Kent ? Like Hal Jordan and John Stewart, they're both Green Lantern. It's the best choice

Calvin Ellis or Val Zod works!

 

[jmc]

You are going to desperately embarrassing lengths to necessitate Bruce's whiteness. And even at those embarrassing lengths your logic fails considering there are examples of black men born into slavery who became millionaires. Robert Reed Church was a black man born into slavery who became the largest landowner in Tennessee. There are numerous other examples.
.

Then it's all fiction isn't it? Do you not see the point that I'm making? If we can so easily change the history of one character to suit a change in ethnicity, appearance, personality, value, or whatever other traits or characteristics they posses, then we can literally do it to every other character and story there is in existence. Hell, Aladdin is a case in point of something that started as a Chinese story and evolved into an Arabic one. There are countless Bibles stories that originated from Persia to Northern Africa that were all adapted to suit the message being sold to people in that book. It's all fiction.

If the argument is going to be we can do this to one character and not another, then your presenting two different standards. You are pretending one is literal whilst another is fictional. They are both fictional, and if we're going to be ok with the idea of characters being manipulated simply to suit our tastes then that goes across the board. Again, the problem here is people are treating Bruce Wayne as someone who doesn't exist, and someone like Mulan as someone who does. If we are looking at both through the lens of being literal, as being representations of particular eras in history, you have to apply the same standards to both, and you have to be honest about it. If you're looking at it through the lens of fiction, it means you can do whatever the hell you want to any character and any story, because at the end of the day they are just words or images.

 

[Primal Slayer]

How about a Black Superman that is not Clark Kent ? Like Hal Jordan and John Stewart, they're both Green Lantern. It's the best choice

If DC were smart enough they'd set it up like how marvel set up Falcon to take on the Captain America mantle buuuttt......yeah.

 

[chaseter]

I'm assuming you think Aladdin, The Dark Knight, and Spider-Man (just to name a few) were box-office bombs....

Aladdin sucked. Look at the reviews.

TDK wasn’t about race or gender. That’s what we are talking about. Every movie has some casting controversy because the internet *****es at everything.

SM was, I will give you that, but I also didn’t say all. I said usually.

 

[Sithborg]

I can't believe the whole "But what if a black character, whose identity largely depends on their race, was changed? Would people be okay with that?" is still a counterargument people make when it comes to these racial changes in casting.

Nor can I believe the amount of overthinking and underthinking that goes on during these debates.

"But Bruce Wayne is from old money!", for example.

Well, yeah. Traditonally, he is. Though if Bruce Wayne was portrayed as other than white or European, one imagines that the writers, IF their film intended to explore his family's history at all...would explore it in a slightly different manner. And would it be the same as the well known character's family history? Likely not. That's the point of new takes on things, Something new. And that will likely also be the point of this approach with Ariel.

I've seen that argument made about Bond. It was not well received.

Aladdin sucked. Look at the reviews.

TDK wasn’t about race or gender. That’s what we are talking about. Every movie has some casting controversy because the internet *****es at everything.

SM was, I will give you that, but I also didn’t say all. I said usually.

I mean, there are plenty of examples of both. The Force Awakens. Hunger Games. Star Trek shows.

 

[Kurenai]

I wonder how they’ll do the sharks without being too scary for the littlies?

Probably exactly like Bruce in finding nemo haha

That's the least of their problems tbh. I'm still trying to figure out how they'll make Sebastian work considering crabs don't have prominent faces like Sebastian.

Never realized how common Hollywood tends to default casting a redhead/ginger character to an African American till now.

- The Hawkgirl in LoT was Kendra not Shayera who is latina/Afro-latina in the comics and the actress playing that character is latina not black.

- Isn't there this whole debate about whether or no April was originally a black female character that was changed into a white character ...so to some folks this is tptb reticfying that.

- Starfire is an alien and the actress playing her wears a red wig.

- The actress playing that Witcher character is not black.

- Wally West is a byproduct of the Iris West casting so idk what people expected.

- Zendaya is playing an alternate MJ, not Mary Jane.

- Josie has red hair now.

- Archie is in live action already.

There is a pattern with redhead characters and black actors but charts like these are never clear, is the problem with black actors playing these characters or b/c they lack red hair and if it's a situation with black actors why then are non-black actors included and if it's about red hair, why are certain actors included.

Well, I’m done with the incessant arguing about Black Ariel, so I’m moving on to another issue which I feel this remake probably will address:

He brings up good points.

Well this guy goes through a fairly ridiculous analysis of the Little Mermaid and believes it takes place in the Mediterranean probably Italy.

https://www.quora.com/What-country-is-the-Disney-version-of-The-Little-Mermaid/answer/C-R-Sierra

I remember reading something about the creators being inspired by mediterranean countries such as Italy so there is that.

The obvious influences in the animated movie are the Caribbean, Mediterranean, and French.

Tptb have a hell of a job in trying to pinpoint where and when this is taking place.

I stumbled upon this, and outside of the lazy "Denmark b/c of author responses" even idk where tbtp can go with this.

Trust me, I already read through that entire thing. One of his crucial points is that “the people are white, therefore it can’t be the Caribbean”. That logic relies on the notion that Disney would be culturally accurate, not something they were known for in the 80s. The flora, fauna, dialogue, music, Sebastian’s Jamaican accent - these things point to the Caribbean. The reference to hurricanes points to the Caribbean. And I did actually point out that the Mediterranean was the only other conceivable option for where the film might be set, in which case we’re still looking at Italian or Hispanic inhabitants, not lily white.

This is correct.

 

[Kurenai]

 

[ironwez20]

Agreed. The problem isn't a black Superman. Kryptonians could be anything. it is a black Clark Kent. Clark Kent was raised as a rural white Kansas farmboy. It is who he is and who he becomes as an adult reflects that experience. A black man growing up in the middle of Trumpland like that would have a very different experience to the point where he would be essentially a completely different character. It simply isn't realistic to make that change without addressing it.

As for a black Ariel, I have no problem with that. Nothing about that character is dependent on race.

A black boy growing up in trump land would be amazing way to show that even though Clark is an alien and black and is treated differently he still wants to save the world and do the right thing. A black boy raised by a white family and taught that your as special as they are and even if they hate you you do the right thing. That’d be beautiful

 

[Charzhin0]

So now a black actor is "unworthy" of portraying superman? You're not making things easier on yourself, dude.

And no, people would not be okay with a white Blade, nor should they be. Changing a traditionally white character black is not equal to changing a traditionally black character white. There are endless white characters available to be portrayed by endless white actors. The same is not true for black characters and black actors.

It is equal. You think there are only predominant white fictional characters in the world? - very narrow minded view. There are heroic characters from all parts of the globe, from different cultures. Plenty to go around. And if you still dont think that; make some new ethnic characters. Start at the bottom where Superman started and earn your stripes to achieve Supermans global appeal. Dont just hand a already successful white character thats spent years portrayed as white and give it to a black/ethnic actor, thats patronising.

''We dont have faith in pushing our classic or original black heroes, so we'll just race swap an already successful white hero with a tokenized black one''

Thats what it comes down to at the end of the day and it doesnt sound good. Casting James Bond, Superman, Ariel and Johnny Storm as black is basically the studio admitting they cannot be bothered or they have no faith in promoting their classically black characters or taking the risk to produce an original black character. Thats real racism.

 

[The Endless]

The idea that you have some kind of underlying racism because you want a character to look like they did originally in the source material is the dumbest ****ing thing I've ever heard. This whole "woke" thing has gone way over the top. Some of you people need to give your head a ****ing wobble.

If someone wants Ariel to be a white red head... they want Ariel to be a white red head. It doesn't mean they're racist. It doesn't mean they need to explain the science of why a sea dweller would be white. They simply just want the character to be what they remembered when they were a kid 25 years ago. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

With all that said... I'm not one of those people. I dont give a toss tbh. I just think these people claiming racism need to go get jobs. Or do other things that occupy their time.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

It is equal. You think there are only predominant white fictional characters in the world? - very narrow minded view. There are heroic characters from all parts of the globe, from different cultures. Plenty to go around. And if you still dont think that; make some new ethnic characters. Start at the bottom where Superman started and earn your stripes to achieve Supermans global appeal. Dont just hand a already successful white character thats spent years portrayed as white and give it to a black/ethnic actor, thats patronising.

''We dont have faith in pushing our classic or original black heroes, so we'll just race swap an already successful white hero with a tokenized black one''

Thats what it comes down to at the end of the day and it doesnt sound good. Casting James Bond, Superman, Ariel and Johnny Storm as black is basically the studio admitting they cannot be bothered or they have no faith in promoting their classically black characters or taking the risk to produce an original black character. Thats real racism.

There is a limited amount of validity in terms of stating that there are characters that are PoC that should probably be given "the push" these days if indeed commintment to diversity in media portrayals is in any way sincere...

But the rest of your argument is quite, quite silly.


Things change. Period. And looking at even classical mythologies they changed as well as circumstances in the cultures that embraces the ancient stories changed, or the stories became tailored to the peoples that adopted them. This is why even the stories of the Egyptian, Greek and the folks tales and myths of Western Europe often have multiple versions of the same set of mythological characters. Over THOUSANDS of years things changed, adapted, some things ommited others brought in from other sources and integrated into something to serve where the culture telling this story to themselves were at that point.

The pop culture that we debate, analyze, celebrate and deconstruct literally every day here on the hype is merely decades old. This is hard to come to terms with but the truth is that the Superman or Spider-Man that you or I hold as some kind of Platonic ideal as they are thought of NOW will not be exactly as they are now as they cross over into another century of existence, if they are LUCKY enough to survive. And one of the inevitable ways they and what those stories stand for and what value people can get out of them will be changes that the people that originally expereinced them would find strange or unimaginable. But without that... These myths will die.

Cinderella finds it's actual origin likely in a tale going back to Ancient Egypt and recounted by the Greeks, and there are Asian variants that made their way West from China. If you grew up with the Disney animated film and it's wide reaching iconography you would think that for all time it had been a tale from Western Europe.


Look... The facts are that there is still a dearth of big budget Hollywood productions with lead roles for non-Whites. And despite all the drama that occurs when this happens, I'm sorry, the outrage it causes seems to be one that acts as though some harm is being done, real material harm, to people that are against these changes. In a country centered around ascent to a common set of laws and not about the primacy of bloodlines or ethnic background (It's always strange to hear the wailing about "hyphen-Americans" since... Well... The terms "American" is in there. It's obvious that in spite of obviously self designating as part of a sub-group within a wider populace that an incontrovertable connection to wider group is inherent in the term...) is it really a wonder that fiction, especially FANTASY fiction is going to find ways to adapt itself to a changing demographic? Is it surprising that the corporate overlords will, ya'know... take a measure of the marketplace and sell their wares (i.e. the characters and concepts they have a copyright to) in a marketplace where the demography is shifting?


Now... Of COURSE there are going to probably, even likely be tons of exemptions from this. Lots of various characters or concepts or stories that probably don't or can't lend themselves to these kind of changes. And yes, sorry, but given the history there is a difference in taking the few well known and well established PoC characters that might garner the budgets and high profile support of Entertainment Conglomerates and changing them to being Caucasian/White and race bending the likes of Bond or Bruce Wayne. These are after all, questions of art and culture. This isn't a math equation. Nor is it a zero sum game where if there is produced a race bent version of some character or story that for all time something has been taken from White people for all time or some such.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The idea that you have some kind of underlying racism because you want a character to look like they did originally in the source material is the dumbest ****ing thing I've ever heard. This whole "woke" thing has gone way over the top. Some of you people need to give your head a ****ing wobble.

If someone wants Ariel to be a white red head... they want Ariel to be a white red head. It doesn't mean they're racist. It doesn't mean they need to explain the science of why a sea dweller would be white. They simply just want the character to be what they remembered when they were a kid 25 years ago. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

With all that said... I'm not one of those people. I dont give a toss tbh. I just think these people claiming racism need to go get jobs. Or do other things that occupy their time.

Yeah, but... Dude, the people that are making a big deal out of it on social media, the ones crying, gnashing teeth and rending clothes are so very OFTEN racists, with racist reasonings that are far afield from some simplistic take of "Well... I am a purist about this thing I am a fan of." And unfortunately, yeah, sometimes the fans who are against these things NOT based on racist attitudes get lumped in unfairly with the racists... But then... Well it's kinda like... Maybe there's some reflection needed since no one thinks of themselves as racist but when you find yourself on the side of racists... Maybe there's an issue there some aren't seeing about the stridency?

That's not a blanket condemnation. I totally get adhering to how a fan mentally views characters and stories.


But... Ya'know Shakespeare's plays can more often than not be performed without regard to questions of race or setting. There have been versions filmed and on stage that radically redefine some aspects while retaining the essential text, or sometimes simply using the story as a jumping off point while hitting the same themes. You can do a version of Julius Caesar that is based in the 1960's and takes place in a Sub-Saharan African nation with an all black cast. You can take Romeo And Juliet and, I don't know... Set it in New York, make it a musical, replace the warring families with... Street gangs based around white kids and the kids of newly arrived Hispanics? Nah... That would be silly. In any case... If Shakespeare is not above this kind of treatment and interpretation... I don't see how an animated film, however beloved by it's fans from the Disney Revival of three decades ago is immune.

 

[Charzhin0]

Things change. Period. And looking at even classical mythologies they changed as well as circumstances in the cultures that embraces the ancient stories changed, or the stories became tailored to the peoples that adopted them. This is why even the stories of the Egyptian, Greek and the folks tales and myths of Western Europe often have multiple versions of the same set of mythological characters. Over THOUSANDS of years things changed, adapted, some things ommited others brought in from other sources and integrated into something to serve where the culture telling this story to themselves were at that point.

The biggest example ever of distorting a historical ''characters'' race is Jesus. He is portrayed as white in Europe and North/Soth America when in actual fact he was (if he existed) an arab, brown skinned man. But centuries of revisionism and Europeon cultural influence essentially race swapped him into being a white as milk figure whose image is plastered all over church glass paintings, portraits and mosaics. People genuinley believe he was white. You think some Christians today would be accepting of a brown Jesus? Hell no. White Jesus feeds into their distorted understanding of history and where the character came from, and in some instances gives them the seedlings of white saviour complex and white supremacy. Amidst racial tensions between whites and brown skinned Arabs in todays world, keeping the source race of Jesus brown would have lessened conflict for sure. Jesus was born as a brown middle eastern arab. Any depiction of him in paintings or movies should be accurate to that. If it isnt, then its factually wrong. And this is where we are at now. Centuries of white Jesus has made us believe he was white and that is wrong.

In the same way, Superman was created white. He is a product of early 20th century American creation, born in a homogenous society. Changing his image to an ethnic depiction would be factually wrong. Stop trying to change history for inclusionism.

Things change, as you say. But not for the better. If they really want to cast a black Superman, or a black Ariel, either promote a classically black character or a original one that has their own identity instead of stealing it from another.


Your argument about fantasy fiction is a non-starter. These characters are more real and will leave a lasting legacy that will outlive 95% of people today.

 

[LvtLeeTDK]

The idea that you have some kind of underlying racism because you want a character to look like they did originally in the source material is the dumbest ****ing thing I've ever heard. This whole "woke" thing has gone way over the top. Some of you people need to give your head a ****ing wobble.

If someone wants Ariel to be a white red head... they want Ariel to be a white red head. It doesn't mean they're racist. It doesn't mean they need to explain the science of why a sea dweller would be white. They simply just want the character to be what they remembered when they were a kid 25 years ago. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

With all that said... I'm not one of those people. I dont give a toss tbh. I just think these people claiming racism need to go get jobs. Or do other things that occupy their time.

THANK YOU.

I don't know why it's this hard to understand. But I'm sure that if Ariel was to be played by say Melissa McCarthy or Angelina Jolie, people would still probably be against it beause (in their view) they simply don't fit the role. That's just my assumption. I don't mind Halle Bailey playing Ariel. It's just frustrating to see this whole "racism" debate. Like when the whole world went mad of Ben Affleck playing Batman, was it racism ?

I do think Halle Bailey's Ariel will be an interesting version of the character. But there are people that do not like this casting choice and it's completely normal, it doesn't mean that they're racist.

 

[Zarex]

For all we know this will the same, exact Ariel from that animated movie many of us can barely remember, just with a tad more melanin. It's not like the fish person in this story being replaced with an elderly merman. She is still a gorgeous young lady with a killer voice and (maybe?) a sea shell bra.

This is a live action remake of an animated classic, so the "create new characters!" idea is a silly one. That's not where the Mouse is making bank. But if you want , blame Disney for stealing (?) from themselves.

 

[LvtLeeTDK]

For all we know this will the same, exact Ariel from that animated movie many of us can barely remember, just with a tad more melanin. It's not like the fish person in this story being replaced with an elderly merman. She is still a gorgeous young lady with a killer voice and (maybe?) a sea shell bra.

This is a live action remake of an animated classic, so the "create new characters!" idea is a silly one. That's not where the Mouse is making bank. But if you want , blame Disney for stealing (?) from themselves.

And it’s perfectly fine. Who said she can’t be black ?
It’s just that there are people who love this character and remember her appearance as a white red head, hence they don’t like this new look. And it doesn’t make them racist. Pretty much like the Ben Affleck backlash.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

Hopefully the target audiance,kids, will not care about this stuff.

 

[jmc]

THANK YOU.

I don't know why it's this hard to understand. But I'm sure that if Ariel was to be played by say Melissa McCarthy or Angelina Jolie, people would still probably be against it beause (in their view) they simply don't fit the role. That's just my assumption. I don't mind Halle Bailey playing Ariel. It's just frustrating to see this whole "racism" debate. Like when the whole world went mad of Ben Affleck playing Batman, was it racism ?

I do think Halle Bailey's Ariel will be an interesting version of the character. But there are people that do not like this casting choice and it's completely normal, it doesn't mean that they're racist.

Need we be reminded at the number of people who didn't like the idea of Heath Ledger as the Joker simply because he looked nothing like the comic character. For years people wanted Willem Defoe, or Crispin Glover, or any number of tall, thinly framed actors with long faces and big smiles. Why? Because that's what the character looks like in the comics. None of it is too hard to explain. People want their iconic characters to be portrayed by people who look like them.

 

[Zarex]

And it’s perfectly fine. Who said she can’t be black ?
It’s just that there are people who love this character and remember her appearance as a white red head, hence they don’t like this new look. And it doesn’t make them racist. Pretty much like the Ben Affleck backlash.

I would agree that preferring peaked ginger Ariel doesn't make one a racist. While I like to consider myself at least somewhat "woke", I HATED Michael B. Jordan being cast for Johnny Storm. And while that was at least partly informed by the changed family dynamics and FOX making it clear they had no intention of making an FF movie, it was not the most progressive opinion I've ever had.

Unfortunately, ALL OF THE RACISTS also hate Ms. Bailey's casting. So discussing this can be a challenge.

 

[Schlosser85]

It’s kind of like how it’s hard to legitimately criticize Israel’s behavior and treatment of Palestinians and etc when there’s so many people who use valid criticisms as thinly veiled cover for their anti-Semitisn.

 

[Abudefduf]

It doesn't mean they need to explain the science of why a sea dweller would be white.

So far the only people I've seen bring up science to "back" their opinion are the ones against this casting, though.

I saw one dude claim that Ariel can't be black because light is scarce underwater. Nevermind that a realistic mermaid would probably look like this

 

[samsnee]

Hopefully the target audiance,kids, will not care about this stuff.

They won’t. Because unlike adults, kids don’t treat casting decisions like life or death.

 

[Charzhin0]

Hopefully the target audiance,kids, will not care about this stuff.

They don't know any better or know the historical roots of the character. Going by your logic, they could make Ariel a fat, transgendered woman with green hair and you could say kids wont care. Still doesn't change the objective fact that any depiction of Ariel that is not as close as possible to her original form, is not the real Ariel. Weak argument