Live-Action The Little Mermaid

They don't know any better or know the historical roots of the character. Going by your logic, they could make Ariel a fat, transgendered woman with green hair and you could say kids wont care. Still doesn't change the objective fact that any depiction of Ariel that is not as close as possible to her original form, is not the real Ariel. Weak argument

Historical roots? The character was created in the late 80s! Let's not make me feel older than I already am.

As far as I know Ms. Bailey's casting represents one change from the cel animated depiction of the imaginary fish person featured in the Disney cartoon. Hopefully you and all the other hardcore Ariel fans posting about their concerns will be rewarded with a final product that's super respectful of the source material.
 
Historical roots? The character was created in the late 80s! Let's not make me feel older than I already am.

As far as I know Ms. Bailey's casting represents one change from the cel animated depiction of the imaginary fish person featured in the Disney cartoon. Hopefully you and all the other hardcore Ariel fans posting about their concerns will be rewarded with a final product that's super respectful of the source material.

The cartoon character was created in the ‘80s, but I assume he means the Hans Christian Anderson story.
 
Yeah, but... Dude, the people that are making a big deal out of it on social media, the ones crying, gnashing teeth and rending clothes are so very OFTEN racists, with racist reasonings that are far afield from some simplistic take of "Well... I am a purist about this thing I am a fan of." And unfortunately, yeah, sometimes the fans who are against these things NOT based on racist attitudes get lumped in unfairly with the racists... But then... Well it's kinda like... Maybe there's some reflection needed since no one thinks of themselves as racist but when you find yourself on the side of racists... Maybe there's an issue there some aren't seeing about the stridency?

That's not a blanket condemnation. I totally get adhering to how a fan mentally views characters and stories.


But... Ya'know Shakespeare's plays can more often than not be performed without regard to questions of race or setting. There have been versions filmed and on stage that radically redefine some aspects while retaining the essential text, or sometimes simply using the story as a jumping off point while hitting the same themes. You can do a version of Julius Caesar that is based in the 1960's and takes place in a Sub-Saharan African nation with an all black cast. You can take Romeo And Juliet and, I don't know... Set it in New York, make it a musical, replace the warring families with... Street gangs based around white kids and the kids of newly arrived Hispanics? Nah... That would be silly. In any case... If Shakespeare is not above this kind of treatment and interpretation... I don't see how an animated film, however beloved by it's fans from the Disney Revival of three decades ago is immune.

Great points, especially with Shakespeare. I do definitely understand that there ARE racists getting all up in arms over this. But yea I do think a lot of people are being unjustly accused of being racists. And it always seems to happen. Like with Heimdall and MJ and Bond.
 
Great points, especially with Shakespeare. I do definitely understand that there ARE racists getting all up in arms over this. But yea I do think a lot of people are being unjustly accused of being racists. And it always seems to happen. Like with Heimdall and MJ and Bond.
Racist maybe not.

Unjust? So what would yo call people who always seem to resist doing anything but the same narrow vision no matter what?


Somehow even when there’s a call not to change the race but use a different character they still get up in arms.

Flashback

Hey let’s use Jon instead of Hal! More people are familiar with him because of the cartoon.

No! Hal comes first.

Hey we’ve had five Peter Parker movies. Let’s use Miles?


No! They still haven’t gotten the Peter Parker version the way I want and to see him face the villain I want.
 
66357699-2429048447153571-9071259469349912576-n.jpg


Hell yes!!!
 
Racist maybe not.

Unjust? So what would yo call people who always seem to resist doing anything but the same narrow vision no matter what?


Somehow even when there’s a call not to change the race but use a different character they still get up in arms.

Flashback

Hey let’s use Jon instead of Hal! More people are familiar with him because of the cartoon.

No! Hal comes first.

Hey we’ve had five Peter Parker movies. Let’s use Miles?


No! They still haven’t gotten the Peter Parker version the way I want and to see him face the villain I want.

To me Spider-Man = Peter Parker, same as Batman = Bruce Wayne.
 
Racist maybe not.

Unjust? So what would yo call people who always seem to resist doing anything but the same narrow vision no matter what?


Somehow even when there’s a call not to change the race but use a different character they still get up in arms.

Flashback

Hey let’s use Jon instead of Hal! More people are familiar with him because of the cartoon.

No! Hal comes first.

Hey we’ve had five Peter Parker movies. Let’s use Miles?


No! They still haven’t gotten the Peter Parker version the way I want and to see him face the villain I want.

Well if it's the same individual over and over and over again... well there could be something there I guess lol.

Even still, context is important.
 
Then it's all fiction isn't it? Do you not see the point that I'm making? If we can so easily change the history of one character to suit a change in ethnicity, appearance, personality, value, or whatever other traits or characteristics they posses, then we can literally do it to every other character and story there is in existence. Hell, Aladdin is a case in point of something that started as a Chinese story and evolved into an Arabic one. There are countless Bibles stories that originated from Persia to Northern Africa that were all adapted to suit the message being sold to people in that book. It's all fiction.

If the argument is going to be we can do this to one character and not another, then your presenting two different standards. You are pretending one is literal whilst another is fictional. They are both fictional, and if we're going to be ok with the idea of characters being manipulated simply to suit our tastes then that goes across the board. Again, the problem here is people are treating Bruce Wayne as someone who doesn't exist, and someone like Mulan as someone who does. If we are looking at both through the lens of being literal, as being representations of particular eras in history, you have to apply the same standards to both, and you have to be honest about it. If you're looking at it through the lens of fiction, it means you can do whatever the hell you want to any character and any story, because at the end of the day they are just words or images.

I am talking strictly about fictional characters. And I'm talking about an equitable standard. As I've said in this thread before, changing a white character to a character of color is not equal to changing a character of color to white. There are grossly limited opportunities for characters of color, and for actors of color. Meanwhile the opportunities for white characters and white actors are almost endless. So to take away a character of color and turn them white would be wrong and not equal to changing a white character to non-white. This is how equity works and its a simple concept to understand.

It is equal. You think there are only predominant white fictional characters in the world? - very narrow minded view. There are heroic characters from all parts of the globe, from different cultures. Plenty to go around. And if you still dont think that; make some new ethnic characters. Start at the bottom where Superman started and earn your stripes to achieve Supermans global appeal. Dont just hand a already successful white character thats spent years portrayed as white and give it to a black/ethnic actor, thats patronising.

''We dont have faith in pushing our classic or original black heroes, so we'll just race swap an already successful white hero with a tokenized black one''

Thats what it comes down to at the end of the day and it doesnt sound good. Casting James Bond, Superman, Ariel and Johnny Storm as black is basically the studio admitting they cannot be bothered or they have no faith in promoting their classically black characters or taking the risk to produce an original black character. Thats real racism.

Again, equality only works if everyone starts out equal. That's not our reality. I'm talking about equity. Yes, there are plenty of non-white characters, but they are routinely not given the same opportunities as white characters. Just look at all the big budget summer blockbuster superhero movies and compare the number of them featuring a white hero as the main character against the number featuring a black hero as the main character. There is a gross disparity between them. It would be great if the same opportunities, financial investment, and public support were given to non-white characters and actors. But that is currently not reality. So, I'm not gonna get all sensitive when they race swipe a white character.
 
Well if it's the same individual over and over and over again... well there could be something there I guess lol.

Even still, context is important.

I’m saying it’s like comfort food.
It’s your go to meal cause it’s familiar and you’ll never desire to change that cause of the emotions and feels associated.

Similar to people who read Spider-Man or Superman year over year fighting the same villains with same outcomes for 40 years or those who watch Disney’s Little Mermaid 1,000 times on VHS well into adulthood.

This is their comfort food. There’s no reason for them to ever be okay with changing it in any major way.

This girl won an open audition of being able to act and sing(something 90% of Hollywood can’t do without auto tune) and for some people they would rather have just given it to anyone who looks a certain way than congratulating this girl on merit.

That’s to me is kinda disgusting.
 
"It was abundantly clear that Halle possesses that rare combination of spirit, heart, youth, innocence, and substance — plus a glorious singing voice — all intrinsic qualities necessary to play this iconic role"
— Rob Marshall on casting Halle Bailey as Ariel
 
I am talking strictly about fictional characters. And I'm talking about an equitable standard. As I've said in this thread before, changing a white character to a character of color is not equal to changing a character of color to white. There are grossly limited opportunities for characters of color, and for actors of color. Meanwhile the opportunities for white characters and white actors are almost endless. So to take away a character of color and turn them white would be wrong and not equal to changing a white character to non-white. This is how equity works and its a simple concept to understand.

You’re not going to get equity in the entertainment business nor is it desirable because the natural conclusion to that is a quota system, and that’s going to do nothing but stifle creativity as studios make ever blander stories and characters trying to appease everybody. Whether it’s equal or not is irrelevant, the facts are its fiction and it can all be altered regardless of its origin.
 
So....

We’re not going to talk about Jodi Benson defending Halle being the new Ariel?

Okay.
 
They don't know any better or know the historical roots of the character. Going by your logic, they could make Ariel a fat, transgendered woman with green hair and you could say kids wont care. Still doesn't change the objective fact that any depiction of Ariel that is not as close as possible to her original form, is not the real Ariel. Weak argument

There is no real Ariel. Maybe you mean original Ariel. This is a new version, obviously.

The cartoon character was created in the ‘80s, but I assume he means the Hans Christian Anderson story.

The HCA character was never called Ariel. Disney made changes to the story...how dare they!
 
This girl won an open audition of being able to act and sing(something 90% of Hollywood can’t do without auto tune) and for some people they would rather have just given it to anyone who looks a certain way than congratulating this girl on merit.

I hope it is merit. We don't need another dull, lifeless Emma Watson-esque performance like what crippled Beauty and the Beast. And I'm so sick of musicals featuring big name actors who sing worse than a bunch of drunks doing karaoke.

This is where Greatest Showman got it right. Cast actors that can sing and dub those that can't.
 
Last edited:
You’re not going to get equity in the entertainment business nor is it desirable because the natural conclusion to that is a quota system, and that’s going to do nothing but stifle creativity as studios make ever blander stories and characters trying to appease everybody. Whether it’s equal or not is irrelevant, the facts are its fiction and it can all be altered regardless of its origin.
I don't think a "quota system" would be the natural result of what I'm talking about at all. If anything, it's just asking for people to not say stupid racially insensitive stuff because the magic mermaid is black. Regardless, if having people of color in your films stifles your creativity, then you shouldn't be in a creative field.
 
I don't think a "quota system" would be the natural result of what I'm talking about at all. If anything, it's just asking for people to not say stupid racially insensitive stuff because the magic mermaid is black. Regardless, if having people of color in your films stifles your creativity, then you shouldn't be in a creative field.

When you start trying please everybody you end up pleasing nobody.
 
You’re not going to get equity in the entertainment business nor is it desirable because the natural conclusion to that is a quota system, and that’s going to do nothing but stifle creativity as studios make ever blander stories and characters trying to appease everybody. Whether it’s equal or not is irrelevant, the facts are its fiction and it can all be altered regardless of its origin.

How is that not happening now? Person of color leads are now showing the one metric that executives care about, money. But if you are going to straight up and tell me that the current system is better than an push for more diversity, than this is pure privilege. I mean, just the stories about Perlemutter alone should be telling you things about how the industry thinks. And then you add in the issues of women pretty much having no career after 40. I mean, as much as I love some of Singer's films, it is still an environment that lets him get $10 million offers that he is not worth. How many times is it worth to try to make Sam Worthington/Jai Courtney/Joel Kinnaman/and countless other white guys into a leading man, while real talent is pushed to the side.

I just cannot understand how a push for diversity is not a good thing.
 
The biggest example ever of distorting a historical ''characters'' race is Jesus. He is portrayed as white in Europe and North/Soth America when in actual fact he was (if he existed) an arab, brown skinned man. But centuries of revisionism and Europeon cultural influence essentially race swapped him into being a white as milk figure whose image is plastered all over church glass paintings, portraits and mosaics. People genuinley believe he was white. You think some Christians today would be accepting of a brown Jesus? Hell no. White Jesus feeds into their distorted understanding of history and where the character came from, and in some instances gives them the seedlings of white saviour complex and white supremacy. Amidst racial tensions between whites and brown skinned Arabs in todays world, keeping the source race of Jesus brown would have lessened conflict for sure. Jesus was born as a brown middle eastern arab. Any depiction of him in paintings or movies should be accurate to that. If it isnt, then its factually wrong. And this is where we are at now. Centuries of white Jesus has made us believe he was white and that is wrong.

In the same way, Superman was created white. He is a product of early 20th century American creation, born in a homogenous society. Changing his image to an ethnic depiction would be factually wrong. Stop trying to change history for inclusionism.

Things change, as you say. But not for the better. If they really want to cast a black Superman, or a black Ariel, either promote a classically black character or a original one that has their own identity instead of stealing it from another.


Your argument about fantasy fiction is a non-starter. These characters are more real and will leave a lasting legacy that will outlive 95% of people today.


Your arguments are all over the map and seem to indicate a tacit acceptance of that which is not so for the sake of popularity... And history has never shown that to be a bad idea, right? Or not... Seriously I don't get what your point is.

And the rest... You legitimized the race bending of a religious/historical figure of great importance (again... You're all over the map) and are ****ting bricks over completely and totally fictional creation of which 100% there can be no doubt of their fictional nature. Which again, I point out how stuff got changed, adapted and imported all throughout what some might call "The Cannon" of our modern society. Merlin as an example is an import into the Arthurian legends representing the Druids. Arthur would himself at the start be a Romanized general or war chief. Lots of what we consider iron clad stories had all kind of cultural and race bending occuring. If there weren't racial/cultural changes made to a host of myths and fairy tales you wouldn't have had the ones we grew up with in the first place. Knowing that NOW I ask why the supposed "purity" of the original tales doesn't amount to any outrage of turning a wide variety of cultural products into something else representative wise?


The stories changed, as, sorry, do religions and how people conceptulize them over time. And if they don't they die out. Say a change is made that doesn't fly with the intended audience... Then that version fails. You and I suffer no material harm if that happens. Shocking given the attitudes and language thrown around for **** like this. But it seems some of ya'll absolutely do need to be reminded of this no matter how resentful it makes you feel.


So... Acknowledging that there are stories and myths that have and will "live" (and go through often RADICAL change as they do so...) is a given.

That someone unironically typed out that these characters are "more real" than the majority of people alive today showcases a rather stunning lack of a grasp on meaning, language, respect for your fellow human beings and their existence not to mention their struggles and inner life... All because the corporation that own a cartoon decided that the fiction of a mermaid that hold no real world logical weight what so ever could be played by a person of brown skinned descent?

This is the argument being employed here? Really? No preamble about being poetic or talking figuratively? Just point blank... Ariel is MORE real than say, your mother? Or the people you work with? More real than the loved ones every body in the world has lost?

This... THIS came to your mind as a legitimate reasoning?


Uh... Huh...



It's not my fault that there is a very loud and very large segment of fans online who, given the language and attitudes employed almost daily, lack the perspective of what the difference between comforting fiction that we hold dear to our hearts is AND THE LIMITS of acting and thinking as though they have an equal weight in any fashion as, well, actual reality. Reboots, reimaginings, race bending, gender swapping... It seems there is a very vocal group online across a wide spectrum (Right/Left, young/old, male/female, Coke/Pepsi, matter/anti-matter, KFC's/Popeyes...) who really need to be told that these things do you no physical harm, so can we talk about these things with a shared perspective of their actual nature first before we even begin to discuss the pros or cons of changing something that likely already went through some huge change multiple times before?

Cuz fanboys/girls... If we cannot take the inherent step as ADULTS and understand that these things are fiction and unbound ultimately by both logic or our personal feelings it would be a great start.

If on the other hand someone is over the age of... I'll be generous and say... 19? If you are older than that and you cannot reckon emotionally with how this is all made up bull****? Then I got nothing for you. You've given your emotional connection to things that are not so a place of primacy in your psyche. I cannot and am under no obligation to respect that.
 
THANK YOU.

I don't know why it's this hard to understand. But I'm sure that if Ariel was to be played by say Melissa McCarthy or Angelina Jolie, people would still probably be against it beause (in their view) they simply don't fit the role. That's just my assumption. I don't mind Halle Bailey playing Ariel. It's just frustrating to see this whole "racism" debate. Like when the whole world went mad of Ben Affleck playing Batman, was it racism ?

I do think Halle Bailey's Ariel will be an interesting version of the character. But there are people that do not like this casting choice and it's completely normal, it doesn't mean that they're racist.



If they don't like the casting choice then they can always go back and re-watch the cartoon little mermaid. Nothing holding them back to do so. The director if am not mistaken said that halle bailey pocessed all the tools to play Ariel. And because Ariel skin colour isn't tied to the character like it is for someone like mulan, they can afford to make changes if deemed necessary. And halle bailey capture everything that they think Ariel is, should they not hire her simply because she black? And also because that's not how she look in the cartoon.

We'll the cartoon will always be there for those people to watch. And I think people who dont like these changes should look at these new live action Disney movies as reimagining. As long as they can capture the heart of what the little mermaid was about, then even when they change certain things within the movie. It wont matter because they didn't stray away from the important themes of the original movie.
 
When you start trying please everybody you end up pleasing nobody.
I never asked for as much. In fact I do believe I've made it clear I have no interest in pleasing the ignorant racists who can't accept a black mermaid.
 
Could we maybe have a different thread for people who want racially pure mermaids? It’s been a week, it’s not going to change anything and I want to talk about other parts of the movie. I’m very very excited
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Staff online

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
202,268
Messages
22,076,839
Members
45,876
Latest member
Crazygamer3011
Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"