The Last Jedi Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker (VIII)

[KingCheops]

It could also be that the Jedi were composed of thousands of different beings with different levels of enlightenment and different levels of dedication to the ideals. A Judas priest isn't just a metal band.

 

[Lantern Venom]

The Luke Skywalker in the original trilogy was 30 years younger and had never had to carry these loss and failure like he was now. The Luke in the OT blew up the Death Star. His plan to rescue everyone from Jabba’s palace (eventually) worked. He lost his first duel with Darth Vader, but survived and returned to save him, and doing so brought down the Empire.

”And became a legend.”

He’s not the Luke Skywalker of the OT anymore. It shouldn’t be. He failed his students, he failed the family that trusted him. The galaxy trusted him to bring the Jedi back and instead he lost it all. How could he be the same Luke Skywalker after everything that happened?

The lesson was that closing off and hiding wasn’t the answer. That’s what Yoda reminded him. That’s what Rey showed him. Hell, even R2 tried to show him. Even Leia, when they connected briefly through the Force, was trying to tell him.

It want about always being the same, it was about learning what to be after you fail. Sometimes even the teachers need the students to guide them.

Excellent post. It should have been obvious to everyone that when Disney announced that the Star Wars saga would continue, it meant either failure or death for Luke. Had he been able to return the Jedi to their previous prominence, there would have been no wars. TLJ was a perfect end to Luke's part in the story.

 

[TheVileOne]

Excellent post. It should have been obvious to everyone that when Disney announced that the Star Wars saga would continue, it meant either failure or death for Luke. Had he been able to return the Jedi to their previous prominence, there would have been no wars. TLJ was a perfect end to Luke's part in the story.

I'm not sure that should've been obvious to me after they announced it. I think what was fairly obvious or what one could predict after The Force Awakens was that Luke Skywalker went into a self-imposed exile and blamed himself for Kylo Ren turning to the dark side.

 

[Mask&Cape]

I guess so. I haven't been following it closely. Everything I got was from hearsay.

In typical internet fashion comments by Hamill were edited and contorted to get the the exact opposite of the man's intent.

He disagreed with Johnson's direction for the character at their first meeting but over time and the shooting of he changed his mind.

Agree 100%. Where some may see Luke in this film as a betrayal, I see a brilliant way to honor the character in ways I didn't even consider previously. This was so much better than just making him some super amazing Jedi Master with few flaws.

Amen.

100%
That would be more exciting to me than any other star wars movie

I'd love a New Jedi Order movie, but something tells me that could likely be the premise for a new animated series moreso than a live-action movie.

That is very possible and something I had hoped for before seeing TLJ because I thought it was the best way of portraying Luke and Ben Solo as younger characters. However, after watching the flashback/projected Luke, Hamill could easily pass as being the younger Luke of that time period.

 

[Mask&Cape]

Luke is a complete idiot if he thought going away, leaving Snoke and Kylo to operate unopposed, was going to help anything. The movies showed us that the obvious stupidity was indeed stupid.

It's also very much not Luke Skywalker as presented in the OT.

As for the failure, he had not been able to guile Ben properly, but he didn't fail him until he never once tried to help him after realizing that he's gone far towards the dark side. It's still Luke going away that is the huge failure.

Luke did not leave Snoke and Kylo Ren unopposed.

There was Leia, Han and the Republic.

He thought his presence would make things worse because he was already responsible for triggering Ben's massacre/corruption of the other students.

Yes, he could have tried to take out Snoke and the Knights of Ren and then exiled himself but the man was stricken by grief and regret and could not see how there was a way he did not make it worse. Plus, as has already been shown, he could not kill his own nephew.

People seem to forget Han Solo ran away too.

No, this wasn't the Luke of the OT. That was the point.

 

[CocaCola]

They shouldn't have included the old time heroes if they want ruin what they're about and kill them off one by one. Skywalker was a disappointment just like the whole move

 

[Mjölnir]

The Luke Skywalker in the original trilogy was 30 years younger and had never had to carry these loss and failure like he was now. The Luke in the OT blew up the Death Star. His plan to rescue everyone from Jabba’s palace (eventually) worked. He lost his first duel with Darth Vader, but survived and returned to save him, and doing so brought down the Empire.

”And became a legend.”

He’s not the Luke Skywalker of the OT anymore. It shouldn’t be. He failed his students, he failed the family that trusted him. The galaxy trusted him to bring the Jedi back and instead he lost it all. How could he be the same Luke Skywalker after everything that happened?

The lesson was that closing off and hiding wasn’t the answer. That’s what Yoda reminded him. That’s what Rey showed him. Hell, even R2 tried to show him. Even Leia, when they connected briefly through the Force, was trying to tell him.

It want about always being the same, it was about learning what to be after you fail. Sometimes even the teachers need the students to guide them.

You don't just change core aspects of a character on a whim, and they completely failed to make a good reason to change it in my view.

The issue isn't wanting Luke to be exactly like before, it's to have a character that actually builds on what was before and isn't just changed for plot reasons. Otherwise they could have given us something that's actually new and not just a rehash of the old story with the old characters present.

But I'll buy it more if they explain Leia's absence in the next movie that she just gave up and went away to let the rest of the resistance fend for themselves, and Rey also gives up doing anything because she failed to reach out to Kylo and now there's no point to it anymore. That would at least make the story funny and unique. The bad guys win because the good guys give up when things get tough.

 

[Mjölnir]

You know who did exactly that? Yoda.

That would be less dishonest if you didn't stop your bolded part before the crucial explanation of what Luke should have done before going away. Yoda did all that he could to try to defeat Sidious. Only when he had failed did he go away, and had a plan for what was to be the last hope.

Luke never even tried to fix it, nor did he put his hopes for correcting the failure to another hope.

There's a huge difference there and I don't think anyone can get away with pretending that they don't see that, regardless of whether they like the movie or not.

 

[Infinity9999x]

That would be less dishonest if you didn't stop your bolded part before the crucial explanation of what Luke should have done before going away. Yoda did all that he could to try to defeat Sidious. Only when he had failed did he go away, and had a plan for what was to be the last hope.

Luke never even tried to fix it, nor did he put his hopes for correcting the failure to another hope.

There's a huge difference there and I don't think anyone can get away with pretending that they don't see that, regardless of whether they like the movie or not.

You don't actually know that. Just like we had no idea the full extent Yoda went through before he went into exile before the prequels came out.

 

[Mjölnir]

You don't actually know that. Just like we had no idea the full extent Yoda went through before he went into exile before the prequels came out.

It can be retconned but if he confronted Snoke then that's more than a large enough event that it would be mentioned, so if they intended that he did that they wrote the story very poorly in that regard.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

You don't actually know that. Just like we had no idea the full extent Yoda went through before he went into exile before the prequels came out.

Exactly. By the time of ESB, Yoda was very reluctant to do anything and had to be convinced by Obi-Wan to even begin to train Luke. Yoda had basically abandoned the galaxy to its fate, much like Luke did in TLJ.

 

[Limonade]

Exactly. By the time of ESB, Yoda was very reluctant to do anything and had to be convinced by Obi-Wan to even begin to train Luke. Yoda had basically abandoned the galaxy to its fate, much like Luke did in TLJ.

Hard to believe that is still the Jedi way of dealing with failures.

We could've just skipped Return of the Jedi all together and assumed Luke goes into hiding after his hand gets cut off by Darth Vader then.

 

[Agent Orange]

"Into exile I must go. Failed I have."

Half the fanbase is shaken and annoyed by Luke's decision but I don't remember any outrage over the way Yoda bailed. He seemed determined to end Palpatine. "At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was!"

The fight was pretty even too and ends when Yoda falls and just... gives up. He didn't seem to have a plan (neither did Lucas) beyond physical confrontation. Comparatively, after he's shaken out of his exile, Luke's plan gives the Resistance the time it needs to survive and fight on. Yoda and Luke are actually redeemed in The Last Jedi. "We are what they grow beyond." "Life" as a Force Ghost made Yoda wiser. Clearly.

 

[Mjölnir]

"Into exile I must go. Failed I have."

Half the fanbase is shaken and annoyed by Luke's decision but I don't remember any outrage over the way Yoda bailed. He seemed determined to end Palpatine. "At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was!"

The fight was pretty even too and ends when Yoda falls and just... gives up. He didn't seem to have a plan (neither did Lucas) beyond physical confrontation. Comparatively, after he's shaken out of his exile, Luke's plan gives the Resistance the time it needs to survive and fight on. Yoda and Luke are actually redeemed in The Last Jedi. "We are what they grow beyond." "Life" as a Force Ghost made Yoda wiser. Clearly.

If you had just read the recent discussion you'd have seen that point already being talked about. Yoda did try to rectify the mistake by confronting Sidoius. He failed and Sidious got a complete grasp of power and Yoda had to flee the Jedi purge. The plan is to keep Anakin's children safe in the hope that they have the power to rise and challenge Sidious.

Obi-Wan also had pretty much the exact same thing happen to him, only to a far worse degree as Anakin was his padawan and brother for such a long time, and he had actually committed horrible deed when Obi-Wan found out. Yet despite being absolutely devastated he did his duty as a Jedi and confronted his mistake. He was also willing to confront Sidious, but Yoda didn't deem him powerful enough.

From what we know about Luke he just gave up on Ben and never confronted Snoke. He just ran away at the first sign of failure, despite that a new dark lord had risen. No sign of him trying to help, rectify the mistake, or even own up to his sister. Very unlike Yoda and Obi-Wan.

Just imagine if the prequels had Obi-Wan and Yoda just leave when they see that Anakin has a lot of darkness in him, but hasn't yet fallen and joined Sidious.

I do wonder why Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't seem to be around for Luke when he failed and gave up on everything though. Yoda does show up, but embarrassingly late.

 

[C. Lee]

Here's something I have mentioned in the past that didn't get any response that I remember.....people have complained that Luke gave up on Ben when he saw darkness in him when he didn't do the same for Anakin. My response is....Luke says he looked into Anakin and saw good in him....I don't remember him saying he looked into Ben and saw good in him too.

 

[Mjölnir]

Here's something I have mentioned in the past that didn't get any response that I remember.....people have complained that Luke gave up on Ben when he saw darkness in him when he didn't do the same for Anakin. My response is....Luke says he looked into Anakin and saw good in him....I don't remember him saying he looked into Ben and saw good in him too.

But we're told by Rey that he hadn't even fully turned yet.

Plus that we see Kylo having constant struggles with the pull from the light in TFA, as well as Snoke commenting on that (especially when he in TLJ says what I hear is said in the TFA novel - that Kylo was weakened by his dark deed of killing his father, where a truly dark force user would grow stronger). There's just no way to look at TFA and think that Kylo is anywhere near as dark as Vader, let alone having less light in him. And that's despite that we see him after he turned, while Luke only saw him before.

 

[Limonade]

"Into exile I must go. Failed I have."

Half the fanbase is shaken and annoyed by Luke's decision but I don't remember any outrage over the way Yoda bailed. He seemed determined to end Palpatine. "At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was!"

The fight was pretty even too and ends when Yoda falls and just... gives up. He didn't seem to have a plan (neither did Lucas) beyond physical confrontation. Comparatively, after he's shaken out of his exile, Luke's plan gives the Resistance the time it needs to survive and fight on. Yoda and Luke are actually redeemed in The Last Jedi. "We are what they grow beyond." "Life" as a Force Ghost made Yoda wiser. Clearly.

How are they redeemed, again?

That's not clear to me. If Luke's failure was Ben and he still part of the First Order before and after the fight... there was nothing that had me go, "Yes. This Luke Skywalker totally redeemed himself." Unless you think him buying the Resistance little time to escape was enough for you to redeem him in your eyes.

But it seems like an awful sacrifice for something that doesn't really pay off unless they build off of that in the next film.

As this cinematic episode stands... it wasn't enough for me.

 

[C. Lee]

But we're told by Rey that he hadn't even fully turned yet.

Plus that we see Kylo having constant struggles with the pull from the light in TFA, as well as Snoke commenting on that (especially when he in TLJ says what I hear is said in the TFA novel - that Kylo was weakened by his dark deed of killing his father, where a truly dark force user would grow stronger). There's just no way to look at TFA and think that Kylo is anywhere near as dark as Vader, let alone having less light in him. And that's despite that we see him after he turned, while Luke only saw him before.

I would say that at first she "thought" he hadn't turned yet....but after the death of Snoke she realized the truth. Snoke said he had manipulated things so that she would try to turn Ben away from the darkside. Part of the manipulation could most likely be making her "think" she saw a spark of goodness in him. After the death of Snoke and the adrenalin rush of the fight was over...she was able to reach out and see he wasn't redeemable.

 

[Mjölnir]

I would say that at first she "thought" he hadn't turned yet....but after the death of Snoke she realized the truth. Snoke said he had manipulated things so that she would try to turn Ben away from the darkside. Part of the manipulation could most likely be making her "think" she saw a spark of goodness in him. After the death of Snoke and the adrenalin rush of the fight was over...she was able to reach out and see he wasn't redeemable.

Perfectly possible, but it doesn't explain all that we've seen that shows how much light there is in the fallen Kylo, and that Snoke has worried about that. I can honestly not see anything in Kylo that suggests that he's on the level of Vader in that regard, and if anything he should be darker when we see him in action compared to how he was at Luke's Jedi Order.

 

[Brother Jack]

Exactly. By the time of ESB, Yoda was very reluctant to do anything and had to be convinced by Obi-Wan to even begin to train Luke. Yoda had basically abandoned the galaxy to its fate, much like Luke did in TLJ.

A few months back there was a canon short story that came out with Ben, in force ghost form, trying to convince Yoda to train Luke. Yoda knew that the child of Skywalker was probably going to be the Jedi's "new hope", but he thought it would actually be Leia. She was the one who was more responsible and adult, whereas Luke was brash and impulsive and, in Yoda's opinion, not fit for the role.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I'm not sure that should've been obvious to me after they announced it. I think what was fairly obvious or what one could predict after The Force Awakens was that Luke Skywalker went into a self-imposed exile and blamed himself for Kylo Ren turning to the dark side.

How else could it have unfolded? If Luke had successfully rebuilt the Jedi to a similar state as we saw at the start of Episode 1, there is no logical reason for another war. There could have been the Jedi putting down small skirmishes and engaging in other peacekeeping missions, but not a full-scale war. The *only* way Star Wars could continue beyond RotJ, is if the story took an unexpected turn for Luke.

 

[Aximili86]

But we're told by Rey that he hadn't even fully turned yet.

It seemed pretty clear he'd "turned" at that moment Snokes brutally chews him out, basically calls him a whiney little p*ssy failure and not worthy of Grandpappy and all that jazz.

It stands to reason he didn't just only decide to take out Snoke and claim the First Order as his own right there in the moment when Snoke was torturing Rey. He really seems to have focus & purpose in the scenes before that, leading up to it. It's not like he's genuinely trying to find some middle-ground between Rey/Luke's outlook and his, his goal is to sucker-punch murder Snoke, turn Rey darkside, and rule the galaxy as evil marauding Vader-legacy buddies.

Meaning yeah, he's basically all-in on the darkside thing all through those linked visions/conversations preceding it. Not like he can tell Rey that though.

Rey might have "sensed the good in him", sure, but unlike Luke with Vader she was wrong.

 

[Mjölnir]

It seemed pretty clear he'd "turned" at that moment Snokes brutally chews him out, basically calls him a whiney little p*ssy failure and not worthy of Grandpappy and all that jazz.

It stands to reason he didn't just only decide to take out Snoke and claim the First Order as his own right there in the moment when Snoke was torturing Rey. He really seems to have focus & purpose in the scenes before that, leading up to it. It's not like he's genuinely trying to find some middle-ground between Rey/Luke's outlook and his, his goal is to sucker-punch murder Snoke, turn Rey darkside, and rule the galaxy as evil marauding Vader-legacy buddies.

Meaning yeah, he's basically all-in on the darkside thing all through those linked visions/conversations preceding it. Not like he can tell Rey that though.

Rey might have "sensed the good in him", sure, but unlike Luke with Vader she was wrong.

Did you miss that the point we were talking about was the moment when Luke went to his bed? It was that moment when Luke looked into him that's discussed, and that's the point where Rey said he hadn't made his choice yet. That moment has no connection to Snoke berating Kylo.

And I do find it laughable when anyone says that there isn't any light in Kylo Ren. The guy that sits alone and pleads to his grandfather's mask to give him strength to resist the call of the light? That's the film directly telling you how much light there is in him, and yet people say that there is none. Funny stuff to me.

 

[danoyse]

Here's something I have mentioned in the past that didn't get any response that I remember.....people have complained that Luke gave up on Ben when he saw darkness in him when he didn't do the same for Anakin. My response is....Luke says he looked into Anakin and saw good in him....I don't remember him saying he looked into Ben and saw good in him too.

Yep. In fact, the conversation he has with Leia is the opposite of the talk they had in ROTJ. Back on Endor, he told Leia that he had to face Vader because he’d seen good in him and he had to try and save him. On Crait, he told her he had to face Ben, “...but I can’t save him.”

I do believe Luke saw what Kylo truly was the night he tried to kill him. He wasn’t wrong about him.

 

[Mjölnir]

Yep. In fact, the conversation he has with Leia is the opposite of the talk they had in ROTJ. Back on Endor, he told Leia that he had to face Vader because he’d seen good in him and he had to try and save him. On Crait, he told her he had to face Ben, “...but I can’t save him.”

I do believe Luke saw what Kylo truly was the night he tried to kill him. He wasn’t wrong about him.

If he wasn't wrong, why does Kylo need to plead for help to stay on the dark side? Why does Snoke worry that he'll turn to the light like Vader did?

If there's absolutely no light in him he's like Darth Sidious. Do you think he sat in his chambers asking the old Sith for help to stay evil?