MCU: The Marvel Cinematic Universe Official Discussion - Part 2

[TeeKay]

Marvel movies pale in comparison to their comic book counterpart.
They are fun and good, but not AS GOOD as people make it to be.
Marvel is more interested in big sagas then to actually make movies about the characters.
Take, for example, Captain America.
The last Cap movie (it was quite good nonetheless) had Cap and Black Widow and Falcon and Nick Fury and Maria Hill.....
The next one will have Cap and Iron Man and more (it's only logical)
What about....i don't know....make a movie with only Captain America and get inside the characters head?

The upcoming Captain Marvel is about......Carol Danvers???? Really??????
Why not about Mar-Vell, the kree alien?
And then, put Miss Marvel in the mix and go from there?

The same goes to Marvel TV show.....Agents of SHIELD took a while before being actually watchable (it was a mess), and that only happened when they tied with The Winter Soldier.
IMO, comic book TV shows are actually good if they go before the hero put on the mask, during the superhero phase...they might as well go to the movies.


But hey, DC is not much better, in fact is the opposite, even more because Zack Snider is DC Cinematic Universe go to man, and he sucks........Man of Steel was soooooooooooooo freaking bad.
A generic superhero with the name Superman doesn't make it the real thing.

Ummmmm Captain Ametica: The Winter Soldier did just that imo.

 

[cph9fa]

His cameo in IW, first casualty when Thanos reaches Earth.

That would certainly win the audience's attention! Things just got real!

 

[Heretic]

BREAKING EXCLUSIVE NEWS ON PHASE 4 MARVEL FILM, SURE TO BE NOMINATED FOR THE OSCAR!

Kang (played by Daniel Day Lewis) is a Jewish victim of the Nazi Holocaust, barely surviving in a concentration camp. He escapes by time traveling, but ends up as a slave in early America. Finally, at long last, he finds freedom...the freedom of homosexual love...with abolitionist Frank Castle (Matthew McConaughey)

 

[Son of Coul]

BREAKING EXCLUSIVE NEWS ON PHASE 4 MARVEL FILM, SURE TO BE NOMINATED FOR THE OSCAR!

Kang (played by Daniel Day Lewis) is a Jewish victim of the Nazi Holocaust, barely surviving in a concentration camp. He escapes by time traveling, but ends up as a slave in early America. Finally, at long last, he finds freedom...the freedom of homosexual love...with abolitionist Frank Castle (Matthew McConaughey)

I'll admit... I'd watch it.

 

[mace1]

I will comment on the MOS comment only from the above reply.

Man of Steel was soooooooooooooo freaking bad.
A generic superhero with the name Superman doesn't make it the real thing.

I clearly disagree with this of course.

 

[Batmannerism]

Marvel movies pale in comparison to their comic book counterpart.
They are fun and good, but not AS GOOD as people make it to be.
Marvel is more interested in big sagas then to actually make movies about the characters.
Take, for example, Captain America.
The last Cap movie (it was quite good nonetheless) had Cap and Black Widow and Falcon and Nick Fury and Maria Hill.....
The next one will have Cap and Iron Man and more (it's only logical)
What about....i don't know....make a movie with only Captain America and get inside the characters head?

The upcoming Captain Marvel is about......Carol Danvers???? Really??????
Why not about Mar-Vell, the kree alien?
And then, put Miss Marvel in the mix and go from there?

The same goes to Marvel TV show.....Agents of SHIELD took a while before being actually watchable (it was a mess), and that only happened when they tied with The Winter Soldier.
IMO, comic book TV shows are actually good if they go before the hero put on the mask, during the superhero phase...they might as well go to the movies.


But hey, DC is not much better, in fact is the opposite, even more because Zack Snider is DC Cinematic Universe go to man, and he sucks........Man of Steel was soooooooooooooo freaking bad.
A generic superhero with the name Superman doesn't make it the real thing.

I agree with you that Marvel movies usually aren't as good as the comic books - especially X-Men.

X 2 isn't bad, but the source material "God Loves, Man Kills" is probably one of the best X-stories ever - everyone who's a serious X-fan should check it out.

I kind of agree that Marvel tends to go for big stories and sagas, but they do sometimes manage to create well developed characters too - as the first couple of Spider-Man films show (although the Wolverine films certainly don't).

The problem with getting inside Captain America's head is (apologies to Cap fans)........there's not much there. It's either do what I think is right or stay a government stooge. Sure he's enjoyable when he's kicking ass, but otherwise I've always found him an incredibly boring character. But that's just me - I know lots of people love Cap.

Having said that, there are characters who are a lot more interesting that Marvel's put out there - although usually they're villains, e.g the film versions of Loki and Magneto, are at least as good as their comic book counterparts.

I hated Iron Man 3, but I have to say that Tony Stark is one of Marvel's better developed characters. We really got to see what he was made of in Iron Man (it's a shame the sequels didn't live up to the first film). I wish the Hulk got the same degree of attention that Tony does, as there's a lot to work with there (although I liked the psychological elements of Ang Lee's Hulk film, particularly his daddy issues, and the source of his rage).

As for DC, they have made some **** movies (like Green Lantern) but you also might of heard of a trilogy of films a few years ago by this director, Chris Nolan, which explored the entire story (from beginning to end) of a well known comic book vigilante character and spent a fair bit of time getting inside his head. If you haven't, you should check them out.

And MOS, if you didn't like it, well fair enough. But in terms of it being a generic super-hero, you've got that backwards.
MOS is the story of Superman's origin, and while different in some aspects, still carries all the major elements of previous Superman comic book and film retellings of his origin. In fact, although darker in tone and different in its look, it covers pretty much the same ground as Superman the Movie, and Superman II (just minus Lex Luthor) with respect to story elements.

Superman was the first superhero, his origin came before everyone else's, so all other super-hero origin stories are compared to his - you can't complain about his story being generic, because it created the genre in the first place.

Now if MOS doesn't fit with your vision of Superman, again fair enough, but other than tone (which plays out in the action and conflict of the film) and look it's still pretty much the same old Superman story.

Again, if you didn't like the way it was done, fair call. But if you criticize the story of Superman, you're kind of criticizing comic book superheroes as a genre, IMO, and maybe this is the wrong forum for you ?

At the end of the day though, these films are not meant to be intense psychological deconstructions or dramas - they're freakin' comic book movies, so if you're expecting an incredibly deep plunge into a character's psyche, don't dive in or you'll smack your face on the bottom of the pool.

They're entertainment, none of them are going to change the world significantly, and while lots of us on this forum get really fired up about them from time to time ( myself included), it's best to keep that in mind.

By comparison, LOTR the films are wonderful, great fun, you really care about the characters - but they too pale in comparison to the source material, which is one of the all time great pieces of literature written in the English language. Maybe that's the key here, that film adaptations are always going to be a little weaker than their literary predecessors - rather than that Marvel and DC are crap at making movies. Just a thought.

Cheers.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Ummmm...in Cap 2, they DEFINITELY got into Cap's head. Not sure what movie you guys were watching.

 

[Iceman]

But they had other characters in the film apart from Cap so it doesn't count.

 

[Shikamaru]

You can make a movie getting in Cap's head and still feature other characters. Winter Soldier definitely did just that, and did it really well.

 

[The Caped Knight]

But they had other characters in the film apart from Cap so it doesn't count.

I disagree, The Winter Soldier brought Cap up in his game not only in action but also in what makes him such a noblest character at the core. It was touched on in The First Avenger film and it was present in The Avengers although his power level wasn't up to par so their fore he wasn't showcase as properly. Now the audience see the appeal that we the comic book fans has have had been over the 70 years in the comics with Captain Steve Rogers.

 

[Batmannerism]

Ummmm...in Cap 2, they DEFINITELY got into Cap's head. Not sure what movie you guys were watching.

Disclaimer: I don't like Captain America, I'm being honest, I'm biased.

Now that that's out of the way.

I never said that they didn't get into Cap's head, I'm simply suggesting that when they did there's not much in there to find.

But this is just my opinion, as I find Cap one of the most boring characters of all time. The moral crisis and decisions he faced in Cap 2 weren't all that interesting really. It was a choice between being a government stooge and.... thinking for himself. The tough guy who doesn't say much , except when it counts, is a cliche. But when it's done well, a really enjoyable one - for me Cap's just dull, and when he starts spouting garbage like.........

....I know I'm asking a lot. But the price of freedom is high. It always has been. And it's a price I'm willing to pay. And if I'm the only one, then so be it. But I'm willing to bet I'm not.

barf.

Idris Elba's "Cancelling the Apocalypse" was waayy better than that, and that was in a movie where giant robots and giant monsters had the equivalent of Wrestlemania !

The action was great in Cap 2, don't get me wrong, but here's the thing, we've seen some pretty good performances from Marvel superheroes in the last decade - both Garfield and Maguire as Spidey, RDJ as Iron Man, even Hemsworth's Thor is more interesting than Cap. Hell, Peter Quill was more interesting in the first five minutes of GOTG than Cap has been in 3 film appearances.

It's not that Chris Evans is a bad actor, he's not bad at all - his Human Torch was spot-on. No, rather it's that Cap is a dull character, even when written by pretty talented guys.

Again, as I said this is just IMO, if you liked it, that's great.

 

[InJustice]

The problem with getting inside Captain America's head is (apologies to Cap fans)........there's not much there. It's either do what I think is right or stay a government stooge. Sure he's enjoyable when he's kicking ass, but otherwise I've always found him an incredibly boring character. But that's just me - I know lots of people love Cap.

I agree with you but for entirely different reasons. I think Captain America is interesting purely because he's one of rare guys that has a boy scout personality in a time where other people are more cynical and selfish. Therein lies the problem, originally I lauded the Winter Soldier for taking things seriously, and being an analysis of Captain America as a character instead of being the typical Marvel slapstick **** like IM3 and TTDW, but with each re-viewing, I find that the film doesn't really push the characters to its limits like TDK and dare I say, TDKR. It feels a little shallow, at least to me. Yes, we see that Captain America's values aren't really compatible to the present world, or S.H.I.E.L.D., but by the end of the movie, it feels rather inconsequential because Captain America's character study takes a back seat to the larger plot workings. So, it's more of a conflict between Captain America and external forces rather than taking a deep look at his character. Take TDK for instance, the final battle between the Joker and Batman was about how far the Joker could push Batman and the GCPD until they contradict themselves, and we see how the characters would react not only within the situation, but also by the precedents that the movie set in previous scenes. That being said, I'd argue that the film does try to get into Cap's head, but only slightly manages to scratch the surface rather than penetrate the skull.

 

[Iceman]

No see post at top of the page. It only counts if Cap is the only character in the film. He shouldn't have any lines at all or anyone else to talk to, we should be focusing purely on getting into his head. They should set it on a desert or in space so that there's less chance of an extra wandering in front of the camera and invalidating it. As soon as you have 1 character in a Cap film that isn't Cap, all positives are done. It's a wrap. Game over.

 

[Batmannerism]

I agree with you but for entirely different reasons. I think Captain America is interesting purely because he's one of rare guys that has a boy scout personality in a time where other people are more cynical and selfish. Therein lies the problem, originally I lauded the Winter Soldier for taking things seriously, and being an analysis of Captain America as a character instead of being the typical Marvel slapstick **** like IM3 and TTDW, but with each re-viewing, I find that the film doesn't really push the characters to its limits like TDK and dare I say, TDKR. It feels a little shallow, at least to me. Yes, we see that Captain America's values aren't really compatible to the present world, or S.H.I.E.L.D., but by the end of the movie, it feels rather inconsequential because Captain America's character study takes a back seat to the larger plot workings. So, it's more of a conflict between Captain America and external forces rather than taking a deep look at his character. Take TDK for instance, the final battle between the Joker and Batman was about how far the Joker could push Batman and the GCPD until they contradict themselves, and we see how the characters would react not only within the situation, but also by the precedents that the movie set in previous scenes. That being said, I'd argue that the film does try to get into Cap's head, but only slightly manages to scratch the surface rather than penetrate the skull.

That's a fair call, I suppose Cap does stand out as he represents the values of 1941, but in 2014. Still, I think that even if you got through the skull you'd find a couple of marbles labelled "duty" and "righteousness" and not much else. In an age of slightly more nuanced superheroes (even Superman has more than that going on, and he's a bit of a boyscout too) Cap just doesn't cut the mustard.
Now, not everyone has to be a growling anti-hero (that's been done to death, and not done all that well), but Cap needs a little more to him before I'll get interested in him.

But that's just me.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

I agree with you but for entirely different reasons. I think Captain America is interesting purely because he's one of rare guys that has a boy scout personality in a time where other people are more cynical and selfish. Therein lies the problem, originally I lauded the Winter Soldier for taking things seriously, and being an analysis of Captain America as a character instead of being the typical Marvel slapstick **** like IM3 and TTDW, but with each re-viewing, I find that the film doesn't really push the characters to its limits like TDK and dare I say, TDKR. It feels a little shallow, at least to me. Yes, we see that Captain America's values aren't really compatible to the present world, or S.H.I.E.L.D., but by the end of the movie, it feels rather inconsequential because Captain America's character study takes a back seat to the larger plot workings. So, it's more of a conflict between Captain America and external forces rather than taking a deep look at his character. Take TDK for instance, the final battle between the Joker and Batman was about how far the Joker could push Batman and the GCPD until they contradict themselves, and we see how the characters would react not only within the situation, but also by the precedents that the movie set in previous scenes. That being said, I'd argue that the film does try to get into Cap's head, but only slightly manages to scratch the surface rather than penetrate the skull.

I completely disagree, Batman barely even had a character in TDK. The only thing he did in the movie was physically react to the Joker's actions, but never reflected on them 'cause the movie would just jump to another action scene. The Joker makes a lot of valid points throughout the movie and Batman doesn't even consider that he might be right, there isn't any inner struggle about his own morality or anything like that. By the end of the movie he is the exact same guy he was at the start(psychologically), he's almost like a robot in the whole movie, the only time his character gets close to actually have some progression is when he tells Alfred that he wanted to inspire good and not madness.

Cap, on the other hand tries to question whether he should actually change his perspective on things. He didn't immediatly decided to quit SHIELD nor he decided adopt their view, he was struggling deciding which one was the right way. Staying would mean to him that he would be a part of a system that goest against his beliefs but leaving would mean that he wouldn't have the chance to protect people the only way he knows how to. Cap was emotionally and physically proactive, while the movie was about his interaction with this new environment which is the best way to develop a character rather than isolate him and not letting him change himself or his environment. This movie made it more simple, subtle and yet more effective.

PD: If you dismiss a movie because it has a lot of comedy then you're a very simple minded person. Also, just because a movie is serious doesn't make it automatically good.

 

[Batmannerism]

I completely disagree, Batman barely even had a character in TDK. The only thing he did in the movie was physically react to the Joker's actions, but never reflected on them 'cause the movie would just jump to another action scene. The Joker makes a lot of valid points throughout the movie and Batman doesn't even consider that he might be right, there isn't any inner struggle about his own morality or anything like that. By the end of the movie he is the exact same guy he was at the start(psychologically), he's almost like a robot in the whole movie, the only time his character gets close to actually have some progression is when he tells Alfred that he wanted to inspire good and not madness.

Cap, on the other hand tries to question whether he should actually change his perspective on things. He didn't immediatly decided to quit SHIELD nor he decided adopt their view, he was struggling deciding which one was the right way. Staying would mean to him that he would be a part of a system that goest against his beliefs but leaving would mean that he wouldn't have the chance to protect people the only way he knows how to. Cap was emotionally and physically proactive, while the movie was about his interaction with this new environment which is the best way to develop a character rather than isolate him and not letting him change himself or his environment. This movie made it more simple, subtle and yet more effective.

PD: If you dismiss a movie because it has a lot of comedy then you're a very simple minded person. Also, just because a movie is serious doesn't make it automatically good.

Clearly you didn't think much of TDK, which is fine I respect your opinion.

Although another way of looking at that film is that Christian Bale plays multiple characters - Batman and different shades of Bruce Wayne ( Cap is pretty much the same guy whether the helmet is on or off and he's pretty much the same, no matter what's happening).
Bruce and Batman are very different characters, who behave very differently. Bruce undergoes quite a significant inner struggle too, and eventually gives up pretty much everything for the greater good. Bruce has to make some very hard choices during the film (none of which have to do with whether to follow orders or not), and he makes a bunch of mistakes that really cost him. At the end he's definitely not the same guy he started out as - Nolan was reasonably straight up about that. Part way through the film Bruce considers giving up, because he doesn't like what he'd have to become to stop the Joker - he loses the person he cares most about, and sees his plans to save the city go up in smoke, then pick himself up and dusts himself off and has to keep going.

As for the Joker's valid points...hmmmm....which ones were those ?

Having said all that, everything would have been okay if he'd just listened to Alfred. That's a theme (probably unintentional) in the trilogy, that if Bruce had just listened to Alfred everything probably would have worked out okay - and in fact it does in the end, because he takes Alfred's advice. But that's a story for another thread (and I respect that this is a Marvel thread).

Sorry, so in a Marvel context a really good film with an interesting and engaging main character, is Iron Man. That's got a character in it who goes through a significant struggle and dchange, and really rethinks who he is and what he's about. As an audience we get invested in the character. Of course RDJ is a terrific actor, but the character of Tony Stark is more complex and more interesting than Cap. Even Thor, who's a much simpler character comes across as more likeable than Cap, because he's got more personality.

Hell, Rocket Racoon goes through more of a character arc than Cap. Groot has more personality (and he can only say three words).

You see Cap's inner struggle as a subtle one, but to me that pretty much plays out as a choice between being a guy who just does what he's told or a guy who thinks for himself - a lot of people figure that out in life, so it's not really that big a deal. To me he still doesn't have much of a personality, and I find him pretty robotic. I don't blame Evans, it's just that the character is intrinsically dull.

By the last 30 minutes of Cap I was kind of hoping he was going to get killed, so they could focus more on the characters who had some personality. Talk about robotic performances, Evans goes through the film with pretty much the same tone of voice and facial expression. That's not his fault, it's just the way that Cap is, like a cardboard cutout that can kick ass.

In Cap 2 TWS the story is pretty good, and the action is spectacular - and I thought Mackie was great as the down-to-earth sidekick, and Sam Jackson's great in everything - but Cap himself is the weak link because he's just not that interesting.

But that's just me, and just my opinion. If you prefer Cap 2, that's cool.

Hopefully, Cap will have more personality in the Civil War film, because otherwise he'll get
blown off the screen by RDJ.

Bring on Dr. Strange, now that is going to be awesome. Probably the Marvel solo film I'm looking forward to the most, although if they base Thor:Ragnarok on the classic Simonson
stories, that will be beyond epic - can't wait to see Thor, Loki and Odin taking on a 1000
foot tall fire demon, armed with a sword that can end the world.

 

[Heretic]

Cap suffers from the same "problem" as Superman in that many modern fans don't like what defines the character, so they hope for and appreciate changing it. The Winter Soldier was darn near a perfect Captain America movie...but some people just don't like Captain America.

The great thing about the movie is that Captain America IS The Winter Soldier. I mean...sure...not in name...but in deeds. I think that was handled subtly enough, but was clear. Cap is the guy with old fashioned values who believes in what America used to stand for...and he was willing to fight against his own system in order to preserve those values. Cap isn't, and shouldn't, change. He is not conflicted on these issues. He knows who he is and what his version of America is, and he will die to protect it. The purpose of the character is to celebrate what is right with America and also offer critique on what is wrong with it currently.

The thing is...again, like with Superman...people who don't like that want it changed. For some reason they aren't happy with having 99% of comics characters fit their view of a hero, they need ALL of them to. Having unique qualities are fine to these fans, but ONLY when the fan LIKES those qualities and thinks they are cool. IF a character has to be more like everyone else in order to be cool, then they want the character changed.

 

[TeeKay]

Ummmm...in Cap 2, they DEFINITELY got into Cap's head. Not sure what movie you guys were watching.

I agree with you.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

reading this last page made made my IQ instantly drop to Nolanite levels. I do not appreciate this.

 

[spider-neil]

IMHO what is great about TDK (and make no mistake TDK is a great movie) had very little to do with Bruce and Batman. If you want a good 'Batman' movie rather than a good movie that 'happens' to have Batman in it, then watch Batman Begins.

 

[Iceman]

I suggest Cap 4: Brain Surgery. Keep the surgeon completely hidden or make it a machine. Then we can get into his head AND have no other characters

 

[Lilbaz]

Cap is a simple man from a simpler time. He has a very strong moral compass. Marvel does a great job of playing him off against morecynical and grey characters such as Iron Man and BW. You can tell that even though they may find him somewhat naive they respect him and people will follow him

His speech was perfect for him, simple and to the point. He believes in the goodness of others and inspires them. You can even see the Hulk defer to him.

If you like your characters to be slightly broken and dark, fair enough Cap isn't for you. But we have enough heroes that battle personal demons. It's refreshing to have one that is certain in his beliefs and morality.

 

[Erzengel]

^

This.


I was more into X-Men and Spider-Man in the 90s. I appreciated Batman because of Year One and the Dark Knight Returns but I was never really a Cap or Avengers fan. Then I think because of Marvel Ultimate Alliance and then Civil War, I became of fan of Cap.

The movies just increased my appreciation.

Right now TWS is in my Top 2 maybe even Top CBM of all time.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

He destroyed Stark in that lumberjack clip. That's the first time Tony's been rendered speechless in six films. Good work Cap^^

 

[cph9fa]

I suggest Cap 4: Brain Surgery. Keep the surgeon completely hidden or make it a machine. Then we can get into his head AND have no other characters

Worked well for Coulson. Coming in 2016 -- Captain America: T.A.H.I.T.I.