MCU X-Men - Part 3

[Havok83]

So what does everyone want to happen in Marvel’s X-Men series? In terms of plot, cast of characters, action, themes, and overall a series of films? Should the first trilogy deal with the mutant vs human conflict and then move on to space adventures or deal with Apocalypse storylines? I’m only asking because Fox has had almost a decade of stories some better than others so how do we keep these stories fresh and exciting for another ten plus years.

3 straight films of mutants vs humans? Oh god no. We had that with the Fox films. I’d like a bit more variety a lot sooner. They need to use different villians which allow for telling of different stories

 

[Lip]

I agree that the X-men need updating in a lot ways. They should always be immediately relevant.

But I think they should make Magneto a second generation holocaust survivor. Transgenerational trauma is an important and relevant concept that many people don't understand. He does not have to be in a camp firsthand for it to weigh heavily on his life and shape his worldview.

I understand your point, but respectfully disagree. Disagree in a way that I still think there are more important issues going on right now that need more attention, like islamophobia among others, and that is no indiference towards the horrors of holocaust.

I still think that Eric is a character that should make people think about the dangers of hate and prejudice, which is what the X-Men is about, instead of "what was the biggest most malign tragedy in history", which is why I think his origin can (and should) be updated. And again, that is no insensitive towards what happened. Just bringing up the attention to 2018.

 

[Marvel united]

IDA and Mad Ones brings up an excellent point

Excellent point. You dont need to have lived through something to be affected by it.

So I guess it would be perfectly fine to have Uncle Ben's death be something Peter only heard about through Richard nevermind why it is important that he himself caused the death. Making Magneto someone who only heard about this terrible genocide as opposed to someone who experienced it first hand takes too much of the gravitas and resonance away imo. It's basically a diet version of Magneto

And there we go. This was never about the character, this has always been about politics and you not wanting a Muslim character that criticizes US involvement in the Middle East, instead wanting to keep him safely stuck in the past where he doesn't present a challenge for anyone's present day beliefs.

Please, go ahead and explain to me how is ENTIRE CHARACTER hinges on being Jewish. Magneto is a man who lost his family to the hate of humanity. He looks at history and believes that humans and mutants can never coexist peacefully and establishes a singular mission: To ensure the survival of the mutant race by any means necessary. He is a charismatic leader who can inspire fierce loyalty and show great love, but unleash brutal fury on those he sees as a threat. How does making him Muslim change ANY of that.

Preach

 

[Lip]

This isn't about "erasing Jewish identity and replacing it with another minority" or whatever conspiracy that has been concocted In the minds of some Right-wing conservatives- this is about taking a character that is a living, breathing example of what happens when humanity's intolerance and hatred for those that are different goes too far, how humanity can create it's own worst enemy & bring that concept into the 21st Century so Magneto is not an 85 year old man. Magneto being survivor of a more recent genocide that hits closer to what's happening with 45; Immigrants and Muslims being persecuted could be very powerful message and it goes back to the original intention of what Magneto was suppose to be and that isn't specific to the Holocaust imo

Marvel did a great job with Black Panther. Now they have a responsibility with the X-Men, considering what is all about. I hope to god they can make something that is modern and make people think about the current issues going on. I believe that's the best way to serve the X-Men and its message.

 

[Chance Jackson]

I don't really want the X-Men to be set on the same earth as the rest of the MCU

 

[MasterCat]

I understand your point, but respectfully disagree. Disagree in a way that I still think there are more important issues going on right now that need more attention, like islamophobia among others, and that is no indiference towards the horrors of holocaust.

There is no moral equivalence between disapproving of Islamic theology and The Holocaust.
The kind of idiocy that treats them as similar "issues" is something the Fox screenplays were much too smart to stoop to.

 

[Lip]

There is no moral equivalence between disapproving of Islamic theology and The Holocaust.
The kind of idiocy that treats them as similar "issues" is something the Fox screenplays were much too smart to stoop to.

I am going to reply with what @Captain Wagner said:

And there we go. This was never about the character, this has always been about politics and you not wanting a Muslim character that criticizes US involvement in the Middle East, instead wanting to keep him safely stuck in the past where he doesn't present a challenge for anyone's present day beliefs.

Please, go ahead and explain to me how is ENTIRE CHARACTER hinges on being Jewish. Magneto is a man who lost his family to the hate of humanity. He looks at history and believes that humans and mutants can never coexist peacefully and establishes a singular mission: To ensure the survival of the mutant race by any means necessary. He is a charismatic leader who can inspire fierce loyalty and show great love, but unleash brutal fury on those he sees as a threat. How does making him Muslim change ANY of that.

I'm not comparing what was the biggest tragedy in history. That's on your mind.

I want, like CaptainWagner said, a Magneto that challenges people now. And I have no problem with him being used to criticize what's going on in Middle East.

 

[MasterCat]

And it sounds like you don't care how much it offends Jews to turn the only Jewish super in films (Benjamin Grimm background hasn't been addressed outside the obscurity of comic books) against them.
Yeah, that's offensive.

 

[Marvel united]

There is no moral equivalence between disapproving of Islamic theology and The Holocaust.
The kind of idiocy that treats them as similar "issues" is something the Fox screenplays were much too smart to stoop to.

Umm, that isn't what he's saying. What he means is that Magneto can touch upon on themes of anti-muslim bigots and blatant anti-islam hate rhetoric that is constantly being spewed by the people in charge of this Country right now.

Magneto himself could easily hail from the Kurdish Genocide from the 80s and that is a lot closer to the political unrest going on because of what's happening right now. Mutants themselves could also touch upon it a bit by everyone calling mutants terrorists and being scared because of the actions of one

It's important for X-Men at it's core to always be about the message of tolerance, rising above hate and fear, and love between different groups of people despite their differences. Why can't the new franchise take those themes and update them for the 21st Century? That's why I want a more diverse cast of mutants in the movie ala Homecoming.

 

[CaptainWagner]

And it sounds like you don't care how much it offends Jews to turn the only Jewish super in films (Benjamin Grimm background hasn't been addressed outside the obscurity of comic books) against them.
Yeah, that's offensive.

1) You're refusing to respond to my point or acknowledge anything anyone else has said. You just move from one baseless attack to the next.

2) Somehow I have a hard time believing that the Jewish audience is going to be upset about a supervillain not being Jewish, as opposed to ACTUAL HEROES who actually PRACTICE THEIR RELIGION (Such as Kitty Pryde) The fact that you ignored the most well-known Jewish hero, whose heritage has been REPEATEDLY highlighted on here, shows how little you actually care about the cause you're supposedly defending.

 

[MasterCat]

Why do you only care about "anti-Islam hate"? Go back to the Rwandan genocide idea and Magneto would have seen far, far worse than someone criticizing Islam.
It's all about Islam with leftists. Israelis are bad because Muslims attack them. Even "Free Tibet" is passe.

 

[Lip]

And it sounds like you don't care how much it offends Jews to turn the only Jewish super in films (Benjamin Grimm background hasn't been addressed outside the obscurity of comic books) against them.
Yeah, that's offensive.

And you don't seem to care that he was retconned in the 80s from gypsy to jewish, right?

Also, he's not the only jewish character in the comics.

1) You're refusing to respond to my point or acknowledge anything anyone else has said. You just move from one baseless attack to the next.

2) Somehow I have a hard time believing that the Jewish audience is going to be upset about a supervillain not being Jewish, as opposed to ACTUAL HEROES who actually PRACTICE THEIR RELIGION (Such as Kitty Pryde) The fact that you ignored the most well-known Jewish hero, whose heritage has been REPEATEDLY highlighted on here, shows how little you actually care about the cause you're supposedly defending.

 

[Lip]

Why do you only care about "anti-Islam hate"?

Because of something called empathy and what's going on right now.

And I ask you: Why not anti-islam hate?

 

[MasterCat]

2) Somehow I have a hard time believing that the Jewish audience is going to be upset about a supervillain not being Jewish, as opposed to ACTUAL HEROES who actually PRACTICE THEIR RELIGION (Such as Kitty Pryde) The fact that you ignored the most well-known Jewish hero, whose heritage has been REPEATEDLY highlighted on here, shows how little you actually care about the cause you're supposedly defending.

General audiences have no idea that the rock monster from Fantastic 4 is Jewish. That's my point. About 100 million people have seen at least one X-Men film and know about Erik Lehnsherr the Holocaust survivor. Change him to a Muslim and you'll offend Jews and philosemites en masse.
The Thing cannot possibly replace Magneto in the eyes of general audiences if they only know about the latter.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Why do you only care about "anti-Islam hate"? Go back to the Rwandan genocide idea and Magneto would have seen far, far worse than someone criticizing Islam.
It's all about Islam with leftists. Israelis are bad because Muslims attack them. Even "Free Tibet" is passe.

Well.... At least you admit it. That's.... something, I guess...


They could use the Rwandan genocide, it's more up to date, but it isn't really a pressing current events issue. But the fact that you shift to this or Taiwan shows exactly what I said. You don't care about the Jewish origin at all, you just hate the thought of "dirty Leftists" presenting a sympathetic Muslim character. Otherwise you would realize that Ben Grimm and Kitty are much, MUCH better representations of the Jewish people.

This is far beyond "criticizing Islam". This is about decades of endless war and ethnic violence in the Middle East, much of which has been either ignored, egged on, worsened, or in some cases directly caused by Western interference and indifference. The history is there and the issues of hate and toxic rhetoric being thrown at Muslims is one of THE preeminent cultural issues of the day not just here in the US but the world over. It is a major issue tailor-made for Magneto to play into.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Magneto should have decelerated aging. Simple

Brings with it a whole other can of worms though, doesn't it? Starting a film series in a post 2017 world you have to ask what's he been doing for all the decades in between? Why start to take action now but not ten, twenty or thirty years ago? This changes the dynamic between him and Charles as well. Now no longer contemporaries, Eric is the wiser more experienced of the two. You almost immediately create a junior/senior relationship which would be a drastic change, something this deceleration of aging was supposed to take care of, yes? Unless now Xavier too is a virtual immortal? I also question how Magneto is not automatically now not the mutant messiah? A nearly immortal mutant leader is not something Xavier easily competes with for hearts and minds. If they are the same age you have competing father figures/leaders. With a long lived Magneto the handicap, no pun, given Charles is pretty big.


I am VERY attached to the Claremont revelation about Magneto. It did make him a tragic and understandable villain of epic proportions but... I'm taking the long view here. It may well not be in the next five or even ten years but a change to Magneto especially in live action adaptations is going to come. I think it's inevitable. One might even say... Evolutionary.

 

[Lip]

This is far beyond "criticizing Islam". This is about decades of endless war and ethnic violence in the Middle East, much of which has been either ignored, egged on, worsened, or in some cases directly caused by Western interference and indifference.

You summed it up perfectly. I couldn't have said it better.

 

[MasterCat]

Because of something called empathy and what's going on right now.

And I ask you: Why not anti-islam hate?

Because it's rational for non-Muslims to hate the idea of living under Islamic law?
Come on, a new Magneto who's pro-Islam would be a total personality change. Erik has always been about genetics, not belief. "Magneto I" would spare an ideological opponent for being a fellow mutant. A practicing Muslim "Magneto II" would favor a Muslim flatscan over Kitty Pryde.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Because it's rational for non-Muslims to hate the idea of living under Islamic law?
Come on, a new Magneto who's pro-Islam would be a total personality change. Erik has always been about genetics, not belief. "Magneto I" would spare an ideological opponent for being a fellow mutant. A practicing Muslim "Magneto II" would favor a Muslim flatscan over Kitty Pryde.

And there it is. The source of this argument is that you yourself harbor exactly the sort of prejudices that this take on Magneto would call out. Is it seriously impossible for you to believe that a practicing Muslim (No one here has said Magneto would be practicing, by the way) and a practicing Jew can't be allies or friends?

 

[Marvel united]

Well.... At least you admit it. That's.... something, I guess...


They could use the Rwandan genocide, it's more up to date, but it isn't really a pressing current events issue. But the fact that you shift to this or Taiwan shows exactly what I said. You don't care about the Jewish origin at all, you just hate the thought of "dirty Leftists" presenting a sympathetic Muslim character. Otherwise you would realize that Ben Grimm and Kitty are much, MUCH better representations of the Jewish people.

This is far beyond "criticizing Islam". This is about decades of endless war and ethnic violence in the Middle East, much of which has been either ignored, egged on, worsened, or in some cases directly caused by Western interference and indifference. The history is there and the issues of hate and toxic rhetoric being thrown at Muslims is one of THE preeminent cultural issues of the day not just here in the US but the world over. It is a major issue tailor-made for Magneto to play into.

This whole thing is interesting to say the least. But the agenda here is starting to peek through and become pretty obvious

 

[MilkmanDan]

And it sounds like you don't care how much it offends Jews to turn the only Jewish super in films (Benjamin Grimm background hasn't been addressed outside the obscurity of comic books) against them.
Yeah, that's offensive.

Dude, you're the one arguing that an evil, murderous piece of s*** only works if he's Jewish. Yes, Magneto is traditionally portrayed as being Jewish, but the idea that such an evil character can only be a Jew is pretty offensive in it's own right.

 

[Marvel united]

And there it is. The source of this argument is that you yourself harbor exactly the sort of prejudices that this take on Magneto would call out. Is it seriously impossible for you to believe that a practicing Muslim (No one here has said Magneto would be practicing, by the way) and a practicing Jew can't be allies or friends?

It really is a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? And it's only making our argument in favor of middle-eastern Magneto sronger. These are the kind of views that Charles Xavier formed the X-Men to combat against

 

[MasterCat]

And there it is. The source of this argument is that you yourself harbor exactly the sort of prejudices that this take on Magneto would call out. Is it seriously impossible for you to believe that a practicing Muslim (No one here has said Magneto would be practicing, by the way) and a practicing Jew can't be allies or friends?

If he's a practicing Muslim, favoring Jews of the mutant race over fellow believers would be haram. If he's an apostate, he could oppose Islamic politics like "right-wing" feminist Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and then the people you're pandering to would be pissed that Magneto II wasn't anti-American enough.

 

[Lip]

And there it is. The source of this argument is that you yourself harbor exactly the sort of prejudices that this take on Magneto would call out. Is it seriously impossible for you to believe that a practicing Muslim (No one here has said Magneto would be practicing, by the way) and a practicing Jew can't be allies or friends?

The discomfort he/she feel with only the idea of a muslim character challeging their believes is exactly why Marvel should do it. And it shows exactly why is much more important than sticking to the past while ignoring the hate and violence happening now.

 

[MasterCat]

The discomfort he/she feel with only the idea of a muslim character challeging their believes is exactly why Marvel should do it. And it shows exactly why is much more important than sticking to the past while ignoring the hate and violence happening now.

What about the hate and violence when a Muslim kills a Jew?