Dark of the Moon Michael Bay has killed Transformers for me

[nogap87]

Oh my bad bro, I misunderstood who you were applying that too.

My apologies

No prob.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

MessiahDecoy, you are really reaching here. You are actually suggesting that a kids cartoon, designed as a 30 minute toy commercial, was trying to stir the sociopolitical pot with it's themes? Honestly, did you, as a kid, get that from watching the show? Did you realize, at age 8, that the military was draining our resources? Wow. You keep reaching like that, you're going to pull a muscle.

Exactly. While it's an interesting parrallel, it's meaningless. Energon was simply something for the Transformers to fight over. Just a vague MacGuffin plot device, whose purpose and chemistry changed week by week. It's no different really than Minicons or an Allspark. Outside of The Golden Lagoon, an episode that had nothing to do with Energon, the Transformers weren't really pandering to the environmental conservation crowd. Sure, anyone can say "hey, isn't this and that kind of like the Iraq war", but at the time as Hotwire says do you really think they were purposefully forecasting some doom and gloom scenario regarding fossil fuels. Was that same series of episodes also warning us to guard our "Crystals of Burma" or our ruby supply?

 

[roach]

Who told you about our ruby supply?

 

[CEREBRAL....]

There was lots of stupid sh** in the cartoon, like going to a dimension where a child played with them like toys, or having a crude middle eastern stereotype ramble on about goats, or finding themselves on an Opera planet, or the time they chased a high school fair robot through the school. I don't get how dumb humor is somehow worse because it's about pot and humping. The humor of Transformers G1 was just as inane and out of place in a show supposedly about war, even worse they contructed whole episodes around ******ed things. Again, if you bother to read my posts you'll noticed I'm not thrilled with Bay's sense of humor but to claim the show strayed away from dumb comedy is well...wrong. Flat out wrong. .

really man..you're gonna compare what was in the movie to the sillyness that was in a cartoon!!!?..really man..you know damn well the sillyness that was in the cartoon can not compared to the sillyness i named in the movie stop!!..way way different levels of sillyness on top of the fact i for one again am not looking for a exact replica..

and i dont need to see what you exactly said because for one, UNLIKE YOU (claiming i mean more then what i said)..i'm not claiming you to not have any issues with the movie..notice i only address one thing you said and gave you examples right??

Also, the entire reason that the humor in the movie contained "weed" and "sex" is because the movie is rated PG-13 and the show was rated G. It's the same reason why in G1's cartoon the Transformers couldn't shoot each other and rarely, if ever, got injured. Most action movie comic relief is going to be edgier than a cartoon show for kids..

so your telling me every PG-13 related movie went there with tasteless humor?? I would ask; did spiderman ever had people peeing on each other and weed brownies....but i'm sure you would go ahead and tell me how those types of comics-book movies had a more diverse story so the director wouldn't go there..

come on, first off...dont sit there and use words like "your vision" or crap like that, like just as you had some issues with the movie, i can't??? I made it clear time and time again..and i'll say it again...obviously the humor of the movie was recognized as an issue because M.Bay his self has said to tone it down. So you shouldnt' have an issue with any other poster having an issue with the humor. Because after all if M.Bay was ok with it, then i'm sure he would of kept up with it right, i mean we all knwo M.Bay to do what he feels and not care to much about what others think, right???

and i said i'm not expecting a exact replica but some how you feel to think i want the exact replica...please respect what i'm saying and not add words or thoughts that you havent read from me thank you.

I'm a grown adult, i have no problem with toilet humor of any kind but do not sit here and try to insult my maturity level or assume i'm overly applauded by the humor that was put in the film especially when i said..."you should be careful to add that type of humor when you know your not just targeting young adults." THANK YOU!

any good director knows that..hence why spiderman, x-men etc (all pg-13) movies, didnt decided to have anyone peeing, smoking or clearly showing balls or a representation of the male body parts..

and i'm saying respecting the sourcal materical in the fact that M.Bay could of actually gave the robots more of personality, not just focus on prime and bumblebee as the main good guys (i know he's not the only one who created the film, and also x-men did the same thing with favoring wolverine)...which in every cartoon,comic book and version of TF all characters had a personality...also if you gonna add a character such as "devastator" actually give them all separate robot forums then what your version of "devastator" was....i mean those are just some examples

i think most ppl who oppose the movie gave pretty good examples of what their issues were, only to be oppose or completely confused by those who like the movie.

i see, it's ok to like the movie, but it's not ok to dislike the movie and give points..i guesss.

that's what i'm getting here from people who like the film. i have no problem with you debating..but to come from the stand point of "well the cartoon was stupid..so the movie wasn't that far off" is b.s. in my opinon.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

MessiahDecoy, you are really reaching here. You are actually suggesting that a kids cartoon, designed as a 30 minute toy commercial, was trying to stir the sociopolitical pot with it's themes? Honestly, did you, as a kid, get that from watching the show? Did you realize, at age 8, that the military was draining our resources? Wow. You keep reaching like that, you're going to pull a muscle.

It's not a stretch. It's obvious.

Energy resources are being raided by a superior force but Americans are the victims. It has the same message as War of the Worlds, "how would we like it if the western world was victimized for it's resources the way we victimize others".

Decepticons are basically imperialist with an energy addiction. This is not just a coincidence that many world powers were accused of being the same thing at the time.

Why introduce kids to these ideas when you're advertising toys? Because as an artist you're not limited to a salesman mindset. And kids are impressionable so why not try to influence their future political leanings.

 

[Hotwire]

It's not a stretch. It's obvious.

Energy resources are being raided by a superior force but Americans are the victims. It has the same message as War of the Worlds, "how would we like it if the western world was victimized for it's resources the way we victimize others".

Decepticons are basically imperialist with an energy addiction. This is not just a coincidence that many world powers were accused of being the same thing at the time.

Why introduce kids to these ideas when you're advertising toys? Because as an artist you're not limited to a salesman mindset. And kids are impressionable so why not try to influence their future political leanings.

I think you are really reading too much into it. By doing what you've done here, you can find hidden political agendas in everything. That does not mean they are really there. As Sigmund Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

It's not a stretch. It's obvious.

Energy resources are being raided by a superior force but Americans are the victims. It has the same message as War of the Worlds, "how would we like it if the western world was victimized for it's resources the way we victimize others".

Decepticons are basically imperialist with an energy addiction. This is not just a coincidence that many world powers were accused of being the same thing at the time.

Why introduce kids to these ideas when you're advertising toys? Because as an artist you're not limited to a salesman mindset. And kids are impressionable so why not try to influence their future political leanings.

"Freedom is the Right of All Sentinent Beings" is a very political statement, and could be disected for hours on end (ironically the first time Cullen said it was in Bay's film), but at the same time it's also a platitude you'd expect a character like Optimus to say. Point being, you can read anything into anything. Attacking an oil rig isn't by nature political, but you can politicize it, just like you could politicize the presence of Sector 7 in the Bay movies.

By the by, during season 3 there was a series of episodes where Ultra Magnus and Rodimus Prime negotiated peace talks between planets that seemed like thinly vielled versions of Israel and Palestine. Why aren't you imploring Bay to use these episodes as the basis for a movie if political commentary is that important to you? Why is the very first episode of the show you claim he doesn't have to rehash the one with political statement you feel is most appropriate for Transformers? Again, it just seems like your shilling for the G1 show again, and claiming what's wrong with Bay's movies is that again they refused to rehash G1.

 

[Mr. Para-Normal]

G1 wasn't that great anyways...I don't know why people seriously hold onto that as their lifeline to this franchise. It was just another cheesy, childish, over simplified cartoon for kids to watch on Saturday morning. I love Spider-Man but I cannot watch a single episode of the saturday morning cartoon anymore. Jesus it was terrible. Same for X-Men. It's just people holding onto their childhood. If those were made into movies they would suck donkey balls. Just looking at the character designs of the G1 series is laughable to what Bay has produced. Sure these movies could be better but G1 isn't exactly an indicator of quality itself.

My thoughts exactly! I respect the source material but come on some on G1 story was full of cheese and silliness. Back in 2007 when the first movie came out and I did the research on TF. I saw the G1 stuff and was like this is what fanboys are crying for? But it had some okay/ cool moments but I prefer Bays robot designs.

Some diehards need to put their fanboyism and childhood memories aside and then watch the G1 stuff. It's really not that great. I would say it's average Saturday cartoon. Again not bashing the source material just saying how I feel. Some fans act like G1 its a holy Grail or something. It's just okay/ average in my book.

 

[Marvin]

so your telling me every PG-13 related movie went there with tasteless humor?? I would ask; did spiderman ever had people peeing on each other and weed brownies....but i'm sure you would go ahead and tell me how those types of comics-book movies had a more diverse story so the director wouldn't go there..

...

any good director knows that..hence why spiderman, x-men etc (all pg-13) movies, didnt decided to have anyone peeing, smoking or clearly showing balls or a representation of the male body parts..

How surprised was I to see you here using examples of all things to argue your point. And here I thought I was the only one that used the art of analogy and comparison.

You (wisely) seem to have failed to mention the highly celebrated Iron Man series in your list of respectable PG13 movies that don't sink to the pathetic depths of the bayformer series.

[YT]41PoLfHfPXc[/YT]
[YT]M_a_jfTgvLA[/YT]
Among the substance abuse and overt sexuality found in the Iron man films there is also urination jokes and misogyny is littered all about. How is the concept of weed brownies any more offensive than Tony getting drunk and acting all sorts of foolish...At least Mrs. didn't do anything beyond the act of intoxication.

This is where I say, "why doesn't anyone rise any concern about this yet they do about bayformers," but I already know your answer..I should just take it up with those critics and call it a day...

Meanwhile Mystic is walking around naked and people are having fits over wreaking balls being referred to as a scrotum(without any of the functions of one mind you)

for you it had to be said, like i said..this situation/debate aint that complex..but i guess that is the way you debate...find examples of all types...no problem man, be you...

I could tell it to you straight but that doesn't seem to work either.

You are being way too literal...does he have to really say it was "tasteless" do you really need everything to be said EXACT for you to get the point..i dont think you do, and i dont think i ever said M.Bay said it was tasteless..i'm sure,

i said he recognized the movie could of been better...

all actions and his quotes point to his recognition of TF needing to be better, again take that how you want to. But i like to think most people get what he is saying...and i dont like to "quote" M.bay but i like to point out that he understoon that certain points of his movie failed..some of the points i have, and others have echoed since you to me seem like my point of view of this movie aren't legit....i call it as i see it man...*shrug shoulders*

You'd be hard pressed to find a non arrogant director that doesn't say they need to fix the problems of their past films in their sequels...But since you are now stating it with a simple eloquence, I would simply agree, he needs to make a better film.

I'd say the same thing to Nolan and a hand full of other genre directors while I'm at it.

like i said..i respect yours and others views on here.....if you like the movie fine, i didnt like the movie..that should be fine too, agree to disagree.., respect my views are diff. from yours...i been trying to get that across and hope i wasnt insulting anyones intelligences as i was doing so.

That's fine, however calling peoples views or actions "disgusting" and such things tends to cross that line. In my opinion.

John Turturro "I'm standing directing under.....the roborts...balls"
(may not be his exact quote..) but again..you say tomato, i say tomata..whatever duke...*shrugs shoulders*

If John Turturro stood behind a much taller man and said "I'm going to kick your ass" your point would be just as flawed.
tomato.

whatever offends or doesnt offend you doesnt mean it can't or shouldn't offend the next person..you do realize and respect other peoples views right...if it didnt offend you doesnt mean it shouldn't offended the next person....right??

I respect this. What I don't respect is people making the broad generalization that a film is RACIST(or equivalent) based on their immediate response.

I personally just hate hypocrisy. People are "offended" by bayformers, apparently there is a controversy over racially stereotypical anthropamorphs...that's fine(and they are entitled to I guess), yet where is this "controversy" over the exact same thing in a film that is geared toward an even wider/younger audience?

this character is a dumb red neck hill billy with an associate named betsy..He's slow and has buck teeth...and is an old tow truck...They don't encounter him in harlem or toronto, but in Arizona or whatever god forsaken southern state this story takes place in...
[YT]QiM6nATy9Bk[/YT]

why do these tracktors have nipples and pass "gas" when tipped over..are they trying to offend me?
[YT]fMGDSkNeP2E[/YT]

as you say I will call it as I see it...and I see Bulllll s@#t.

how do you know this? You know what they are thinking..you know the intentions of everyone who opposes TF2 and One? I dont think you do.

I'm not judging their intentions, just their actions.

see you next time.

 

[Mr. Earle]

You guys are thinking into these movies more than Bay ever did. I bet his whole thought process is something like this:
"pew, pew, pew, pssssshhhht.... BOOM... HHHHHTT... BAM, pew, pew, ratatatata, BOOM!"

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Among the substance abuse and overt sexuality found in the Iron man films there is also urination jokes and misogyny is littered all about. How is the concept of weed brownies any more offensive than Tony getting drunk and acting all sorts of foolish...At least Mrs. didn't do anything beyond the act of intoxication.

substance abuse and overt sexuality are actually part of the source martial thou.

I would have been upset if they didnt show any examples of this in a Ironman film

 

[Joker]

Let's all be honest here about Transformers people. The original cartoons sucked. They do. They were toy commercials. That is all they were. All Michael Bay has done is make a 2 hour long live action version of those, but now instead of just action figures being sold, it's also electronics and cars. Michael Bay made what are, in essence, perfect Transformers movies. They're terrible, yeah, but they are the modern, grown up version of those cartoons. If you were expecting anything more, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[def28]

The coolest thing about the Transformes films is Optimus Prime and he looks and sounds just like he did in 1985. AND IT WORKS! If we didnt have G1 we wouldnt have Transformers at all and if Bay followed everything from the cartoon it would have been a horrible movie. There is still a certain amount you can take from the characters of the original and have it translate on screen. Saying ditch G1 100% is a bad idea as is following it by the book. The only thing that ruined the Transformer films imo is bad writing on ROTF but I still watch it because it has giant robots blowing ***t up.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Let's all be honest here about Transformers people. The original cartoons sucked. They do. They were toy commercials. That is all they were. All Michael Bay has done is make a 2 hour long live action version of those, but now instead of just action figures being sold, it's also electronics and cars. Michael Bay made what are, in essence, perfect Transformers movies. They're terrible, yeah, but they are the modern, grown up version of those cartoons. If you were expecting anything more, I don't know what to tell you.

The G1 cartoon wasn't high art but it was solid entertainment for children. But the building blocks were there to elevate it to a respectable and memorable sci-fi film franchise for a wider audience.

There are G1 comics that prove you can expand on the cartoon to make a sophisticated mythos with engaging stories and robot archetypes.

 

[CEREBRAL....]

How surprised was I to see you here using examples of all things to argue your point. And here I thought I was the only one that used the art of analogy and comparison.

You (wisely) seem to have failed to mention the highly celebrated Iron Man series in your list of respectable PG13 movies that don't sink to the pathetic depths of the bayformer series.

.

wrong..you are assuming..i never wisely left anything out because again your over thinking what i'm saying...i'm not in court; you and i arent lawyers..i'm not gonna sit here and give every example out of the book...like i tried to get across to you...somethings are pretty simple and dont need any exact details....again never wisely left anything out because i didnt need to bring in every comic book movie..i typed enough as is..and that video is no where near the same time of tasteless humor of the TF movie..come on man..you are trying way too hard

If John Turturro stood behind a much taller man and said "I'm going to kick your ass" your point would be just as flawed.
tomato.
.

huh?? My point is not flawed..what are you talking about..you are making no sense..you ask for a example that mention robot balls and gave you one..what is flawed with that???


and yeah i never called your views disgusting..i said the rate or approach of how you are going about defending Bay is disgusting....

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

The G1 cartoon wasn't high art but it was solid entertainment for children. But the building blocks were there to elevate it to a respectable and memorable sci-fi film franchise for a wider audience.

There are G1 comics that prove you can expand on the cartoon to make a sophisticated mythos with engaging stories and robot archetypes.

Again, the problem is you shill for G1 inerrancy on the one side, and then claim it can be this "elevated piece of Sci-Fi" on the other. G1 is pretty stupid, even in the comics. I know it's hard to divorce yourself from things that you personally like, but Transformers fans notoriously buy into their own nonsense. Even their best work, such as The Agenda, Code of Hero or The Last Stand of the Wreckers was not as good as Transformers fans would have you believe. Ultimately a Transformers adaptation that took itself as seriously as The Dark Knight or Alien would seem much different from anything G1 (actually than nearly ALL the established fiction).

Case in point: those robot archetypes were nothing more than cliche' characters found in most shows and comics featuring large scale casts. Ratchet the "grumpy ole' medic", or Prowl the "by the book soldier" or Bluestreak "the guy who won't stop talking". A far cry from the more well thought out casts of Animated and Beast Wars, which were smaller and more fleshed out. Which again begs the question? Do you want something like the G1 comic/cartoon where 99% of the characters were basically interchangible, or do you want a Beast Wars where 100% of the time is spent on a small number of characters?

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

The coolest thing about the Transformes films is Optimus Prime and he looks and sounds just like he did in 1985. AND IT WORKS! If we didnt have G1 we wouldnt have Transformers at all and if Bay followed everything from the cartoon it would have been a horrible movie. There is still a certain amount you can take from the characters of the original and have it translate on screen. Saying ditch G1 100% is a bad idea as is following it by the book. The only thing that ruined the Transformer films imo is bad writing on ROTF but I still watch it because it has giant robots blowing ***t up.

I agree pretty much entirely. I think Transformers did a great job of adapting Transformers onto the big screen. I think Revenge of the Fallen was fine conceptually, but the script, particularly the dialogue, was horrible. I also thought he went overboard with the humor. There is nothing specifically I would do away with, there is just too much of it. For example, I'm fine with the Twins if they're serving as comic relief for serious characters, the problem was John Turturro, Ramon Rodrigeuz and Wheelie were also comic relief (and occasionally Shia LaBouf...and his parents too). In a movie like Transformers comedy is important, but it's a small role, and Bay made it a large role. The Rock is the only film where he found a balance that worked perfectly for the subject matter.

To the latter part of your post "...but I still watch it because it has giant robots blowing ***t up". This is what Transformers is really. It's supposed to be a little stupid.

My favorite example actually comes from Revenge of the Fallen. A lot of people sh** on a glaring plot hole: why does Optimus fight Megatron and the Decepticons alone? Apparently the Transformers fans who noticed this failed to notice the exact same thing happening in TFTM86. Optimus comes down on a ship with Sunstreaker (which makes no sense) and Hound, and they safely watch from the ship while Optimus goes on a suicide mission.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Apparently the Transformers fans who noticed this failed to notice the exact same thing happening in TFTM86. Optimus comes down on a ship with Sunstreaker (which makes no sense) and Hound, and they safely watch from the ship while Optimus goes on a suicide mission.

Hound was actually never seen on that shuttle.

As for ROTF, I would have done away with the Mystical aspect of the story, or written it so that it was more vague.

 

[shigsy2003]

I agree pretty much entirely. I think Transformers did a great job of adapting Transformers onto the big screen. I think Revenge of the Fallen was fine conceptually, but the script, particularly the dialogue, was horrible. I also thought he went overboard with the humor. There is nothing specifically I would do away with, there is just too much of it. For example, I'm fine with the Twins if they're serving as comic relief for serious characters, the problem was John Turturro, Ramon Rodrigeuz and Wheelie were also comic relief (and occasionally Shia LaBouf...and his parents too). In a movie like Transformers comedy is important, but it's a small role, and Bay made it a large role. The Rock is the only film where he found a balance that worked perfectly for the subject matter.

To the latter part of your post "...but I still watch it because it has giant robots blowing ***t up". This is what Transformers is really. It's supposed to be a little stupid.

My favorite example actually comes from Revenge of the Fallen. A lot of people sh** on a glaring plot hole: why does Optimus fight Megatron and the Decepticons alone? Apparently the Transformers fans who noticed this failed to notice the exact same thing happening in TFTM86. Optimus comes down on a ship with Sunstreaker (which makes no sense) and Hound, and they safely watch from the ship while Optimus goes on a suicide mission.

At the end of the day the films are made to entertain and engage...not tax your brain with possible explanations about life and what comes after death. Jesus, people need to lighten up. You are right the films are meant to be stupid, the cartoon was stupid, the animated film was stupid. The idea is stupid but it is also fun.

As for Prime going into the forest fight alone...well....he had to prove he was nails after getting owned by Megatron in movie 1. I would have been royally upset had the other Autobots helped out. Prime had to show no one is better than he...and boy did he show that.....til he was stabbed in the back like lol.

God, I hope Ironhide gets to kick some ass finally. He deserves it more than anyone.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The problem is Bayformers is no more engaging than a monster truck rally. The cartoon wasn't high art but it provided the building blocks for decent sci-fi.

The UK comics showed G1 can be more sophisticated. All is required is a little creative effort.

Bay despises the source material and it shows. If you hate Transformers thats fine, it's not for everybody. But then let someone else direct the adaptation. Don't turn Transformers into potty jokes and cheap Godzilla battles because you lack imagination and openly resent the source.

 

[roach]

You've talked to Bay?
You know what he thinks of Transformers?
He told you?

Sorry but just because you dislike the series doesnt mean that Bay resents the source. You dont do three movies on something you resent and dislike. You dont put your career on hold over movies you have no interest in.

You dislike the movies...thats all fine and dandy but dont pretend to know what people are thinking that you havent met

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

You've talked to Bay?
You know what he thinks of Transformers?
He told you?

Sorry but just because you dislike the series doesnt mean that Bay resents the source. You dont do three movies on something you resent and dislike. You dont put your career on hold over movies you have no interest in.

You dislike the movies...thats all fine and dandy but dont pretend to know what people are thinking that you havent met

And I think your making the same assumptions your accusing him of.

"You dont do three movies on something you resent and dislike. "
"You dont put your career on hold over movies you have no interest in."

I dont know the man, but I have heard him say, in his own voice, that he was never a fan, did not like the original cartoon,had no interest in doing the first film and only did so at the urging of Spielberg.

 

[roach]

And I think your making the same assumptions your accusing him of.

"You dont do three movies on something you resent and dislike. "
"You dont put your career on hold over movies you have no interest in."

I dont know the man, but I have heard him say, in his own voice, that he was never a fan, did not like the original cartoon,had no interest in doing the first film and only did so at the urging of Spielberg.

yup he did say that...and then found something he liked about it
At no time did he say he despised the cartoon..he just wasnt a fan

Again you dont direct three movies in a series if you despise it.
He didnt do these movies to piss off Sto_vo_kor2000 and MessiahDecoy123.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

yup he did say that...and then found something he liked about it

yeah, the money.

At no time did he say he despised the cartoon..he just wasnt a fan

he did say he didnt like it, that he felt it was poorly written and done, he said it seemed very stupid.

"despise" may be too strong a word, but its not far from how he described his feeling for the toon.

Again you dont direct three movies in a series if you despise it.
He didnt do these movies to piss off Sto_vo_kor2000 and MessiahDecoy123.

never said he did.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

yeah, the money.

.

Bingo


Bay will probably end up with a quarter billion from Transformers. That's only reason he did three movies, not because he likes the concept or source.