NEW OFFICIAL SYNOPSIS -The Norton's Touch

[Sava]

I agree. For that reason, it made sense... but it didn't follow the comics, right?

yeah, it didnt follow the comics, everything Hulk did was bad from Bruce's point of view. He hated changing into Hulk.

But you don't like it because it's been done. In some of the early discussion following the synopsis's first release, I thought you were a bit more opinionated than you've been here.

thats cause of the writer at the time, now, we have a good writer and i understand what CJ was saying when we first started arguing about this, its an important part of any superhero story, that the hero gets a chance to give up his powers but he rejects the idea so he can do good.

Interesting stuff.

If you get a chance, you should try and get the comic (Hulk, the end).

3, counting the first Hulk? 6 movies total, with Avengers in between?

I was just guessing but i think Obi Ron is right, they'll want to get an Avengers film quick, especially if IM and TIH turn out to be hits.

 

[Cracker Jack]

i understand what CJ was saying

You did? Really? Wow! I hardly undestand what I'm saying t:

 

[Sava]

there was a break in the space time continuum and everything was understandable for like 2 mins...even you CJ

 

[Cracker Jack]

there was a break in the space time continuum and everything was understandable for like 2 mins...even you CJ

Ah that explains it. Also, Mars is at it closest approach between the two planets in recorded history. The next time Mars may come this close is in 2287. Due to the way Jupiter's gravity tugs on Mars and perturbs its orbit, astronomers can only be certain that Mars has not come this close to Earth in the last 5,000 years but it may be as long as 60,000 years. Mars comes to within 34,649,589 miles and will be (next to the moon) the brightest object in the night sky. It will attain a magnitude of -2.9 and will appear 25.11 arc seconds wide. At a modest 75-power magnification Mars will look as large as the full moon to the naked eye. Mars will be easy to spot. At the beginning of August, Mars will rise in the east at 10 p.m. and reach its azimuth at about 3 a.m. By the end of August when the two planets are closest, Mars will rise at nightfall and reach its highest point in the sky at 12:30 a.m.

Strange that these two things are happing right now t:

 

[Sava]

you know the worlds going to end when Planets do crazy things that havent happened for thousands of years, i saw that in a movie once, and they never lie

 

[Cracker Jack]

All we need now to confirm this is for FTG and I agree on more than two things in one day.

 

[Sava]

lol... , someone call Stephen hawking

 

[Bannerless Hulk]

Okay Sava, I watched that scene again over the weekend and Ross's exact words to Betty are:

"Do you know what the worst part about all of this (is)? When I had David Banner locked up and sent that kid away, I didn't give that boy a second thought. He was just collateral damage. [pauses] He isn't anymore, is he?"

It's consistent with what you've been saying... that Ross feels somewhat responsible for what happens to Bruce, "like he should have thought more about the boy when he arrested his father" (post #79). But to me, the statement doesn't evoke sympathy for Bruce, which is what I thought you were saying. Instead, it's an expression of remorse or regret that he IS responsible for Bruce becoming the Hulk. And for that, I have nothing to debate. Again, I thought you were getting at a kinder, gentler General Ross that perhaps Hulk fans weren't seeing.

Since I was already taking notes, I thought it was interesting that, later on (at 1:50:00), when Betty contacts Ross in the helicopter, he says, "I don't have a choice - I have to destroy him." (Betty's response is, "But you can't. You will only fuel his rage and make him stronger. Let me go to him.") To contradict everything I just said above, I thought this clearly WAS an expression of sympathy toward Bruce, the Hulk. It's as if he understands the nature of Betty's relationship with him and, in light of the fact that he's been powerless to stop/contain the Hulk thus far, he now faces the difficult decision to have to kill the Hulk... something he doesn't really want to do. Was this your understanding also?

Also, I tried looking for the "Hulk: The End" comic, but 1.) the comic store that I was hoping to visit at a mall was no longer there and 2.) Barnes & Noble had almost nothing on the Hulk. Instead, I ended up standing there for an hour reading "Marvel Zombies." Some really twisted stuff in there... superheroes eating each other... sick sort of humor, but it held my attention. Will try to visit Comic Town sometime... it's in the next suburb over and I'm afraid its open hours are limited. Do libraries have comics?

 

[antsiou]

Okay Sava, I watched that scene again over the weekend and Ross's exact words to Betty are:

"Do you know what the worst part about all of this (is)? When I had David Banner locked up and sent that kid away, I didn't give that boy a second thought. He was just collateral damage. [pauses] He isn't anymore, is he?"

It's consistent with what you've been saying... that Ross feels somewhat responsible for what happens to Bruce, "like he should have thought more about the boy when he arrested his father" (post #79). But to me, the statement doesn't evoke sympathy for Bruce, which is what I thought you were saying. Instead, it's an expression of remorse or regret that he IS responsible for Bruce becoming the Hulk. And for that, I have nothing to debate. Again, I thought you were getting at a kinder, gentler General Ross that perhaps Hulk fans weren't seeing.

Since I was already taking notes, I thought it was interesting that, later on (at 1:50:00), when Betty contacts Ross in the helicopter, he says, "I don't have a choice - I have to destroy him." (Betty's response is, "But you can't. You will only fuel his rage and make him stronger. Let me go to him.") To contradict everything I just said above, I thought this clearly WAS an expression of sympathy toward Bruce, the Hulk. It's as if he understands the nature of Betty's relationship with him and, in light of the fact that he's been powerless to stop/contain the Hulk thus far, he now faces the difficult decision to have to kill the Hulk... something he doesn't really want to do. Was this your understanding also?

Also, I tried looking for the "Hulk: The End" comic, but 1.) the comic store that I was hoping to visit at a mall was no longer there and 2.) Barnes & Noble had almost nothing on the Hulk. Instead, I ended up standing there for an hour reading "Marvel Zombies." Some really twisted stuff in there... superheroes eating each other... sick sort of humor, but it held my attention. Will try to visit Comic Town sometime... it's in the next suburb over and I'm afraid its open hours are limited. Do libraries have comics?

You can try to find some of that stuff online, digital version of comic if you're interested (until you get to a proper comic shop)

(and nice analyse btw)

 

[Sava]

Okay Sava, I watched that scene again over the weekend and Ross's exact words to Betty are:

"Do you know what the worst part about all of this (is)? When I had David Banner locked up and sent that kid away, I didn't give that boy a second thought. He was just collateral damage. [pauses] He isn't anymore, is he?"

It's consistent with what you've been saying... that Ross feels somewhat responsible for what happens to Bruce, "like he should have thought more about the boy when he arrested his father" (post #79). But to me, the statement doesn't evoke sympathy for Bruce, which is what I thought you were saying. Instead, it's an expression of remorse or regret that he IS responsible for Bruce becoming the Hulk. And for that, I have nothing to debate. Again, I thought you were getting at a kinder, gentler General Ross that perhaps Hulk fans weren't seeing.

i wasnt talking about him being kinder, that scene IMO showed why Ross took his fight with Hulk personally, unlike in the comics, they just said that he took it personally but didnt say or show why. I dont know if he was kinder in the movie than he was in the comics but we understand him more and why he doesnt want Betty to be with Bruce and why he wants to take down Hulk himself.

Since I was already taking notes, I thought it was interesting that, later on (at 1:50:00), when Betty contacts Ross in the helicopter, he says, "I don't have a choice - I have to destroy him." (Betty's response is, "But you can't. You will only fuel his rage and make him stronger. Let me go to him.") To contradict everything I just said above, I thought this clearly WAS an expression of sympathy toward Bruce, the Hulk. It's as if he understands the nature of Betty's relationship with him and, in light of the fact that he's been powerless to stop/contain the Hulk thus far, he now faces the difficult decision to have to kill the Hulk... something he doesn't really want to do. Was this your understanding also?

yeah, very much so. I dont think Ross was a bad guy in this at all, not like he was in the comics, he was just doing his job back when he stopped David and pushed him over the edge and now with Banner/Hulk. You could say he feels a bit guilty about David killing his wife, things went sour after HE stopped David and took away his chance to cure Bruce. Until then, David wasnt such a bad guy, he was just very ambitious and caring (i think he really loved Bruce until the murder, Ross stopping him just pushed him over the edge). I maybe reaching here but i think you could look at it this way too.

Also, I tried looking for the "Hulk: The End" comic, but 1.) the comic store that I was hoping to visit at a mall was no longer there and 2.) Barnes & Noble had almost nothing on the Hulk. Instead, I ended up standing there for an hour reading "Marvel Zombies." Some really twisted stuff in there... superheroes eating each other... sick sort of humor, but it held my attention. Will try to visit Comic Town sometime... it's in the next suburb over and I'm afraid its open hours are limited. Do libraries have comics?

maybe libraries hve graphic novels but i dont think they'll have comicbooks, atleast not here in the UK they dont. Try and download the comic, if you can. Or if you really want it, you're gonna have to order it from a website.

 

[Sava]

You can try to find some of that stuff online, digital version of comic if you're interested (until you get to a proper comic shop)

(and nice analyse btw)

lol, i downloaded the entire Hulk comicbook run, something like 500 comics, i havent even started reading it yet

 

[Bannerless Hulk]

You can try to find some of that stuff online, digital version of comic if you're interested (until you get to a proper comic shop)

(and nice analyse btw)

Thank you... both the recommendation and compliment.

i wasnt talking about him being kinder, that scene IMO showed why Ross took his fight with Hulk personally, unlike in the comics, they just said that he took it personally but didnt say or show why. I dont know if he was kinder in the movie than he was in the comics but we understand him more and why he doesnt want Betty to be with Bruce and why he wants to take down Hulk himself.

Ah, I see. So, in other words, the first Hulk movie quite possibly improved upon the comics in providing us a better explanation for Ross being the crazy general that he is. And adding to that, this would be something all of the Ang-haters should give Ang credit for.... but don't?

yeah, very much so. I dont think Ross was a bad guy in this at all, not like he was in the comics, he was just doing his job back when he stopped David and pushed him over the edge and now with Banner/Hulk. You could say he feels a bit guilty about David killing his wife, things went sour after HE stopped David and took away his chance to cure Bruce. Until then, David wasnt such a bad guy, he was just very ambitious and caring (i think he really loved Bruce until the murder, Ross stopping him just pushed him over the edge). I maybe reaching here but i think you could look at it this way too.

Yeah, I would agree with all of that. Guess it's more of the far-reaching conclusions that I'm looking for.

maybe libraries hve graphic novels but i dont think they'll have comicbooks, atleast not here in the UK they dont. Try and download the comic, if you can. Or if you really want it, you're gonna have to order it from a website.

Thanks. I think our libraries are the same. May try scavenging the Internet, per yours and antsiou's advice.

 

[Sava]

Ah, I see. So, in other words, the first Hulk movie quite possibly improved upon the comics in providing us a better explanation for Ross being the crazy general that he is. And adding to that, this would be something all of the Ang-haters should give Ang credit for.... but don't?

yeah, they shoud give him atleast some credit for that. Ross went from being a crazy general to a guy that had reasons for why he fought the hulk so much.

Thanks. I think our libraries are the same. May try scavenging the Internet, per yours and CJ's advice.

you use any P2P stuff?

 

[Bannerless Hulk]

you use any P2P stuff?

No. What is that?

 

[Sava]

No. What is that?

its where you can download stuff for free, use Wikipedia to learn more

 

[Bannerless Hulk]

its where you can download stuff for free, use Wikipedia to learn more

K, thanks.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Ah, I see. So, in other words, the first Hulk movie quite possibly improved upon the comics in providing us a better explanation for Ross being the crazy general that he is. And adding to that, this would be something all of the Ang-haters should give Ang credit for.... but don't?

This is something subtly suggested in Hulk but it is definately there, to me it becomes the most obvious when they Gamma Bomb Hulk and David Banner. Ross obviously thinks both are dead and shows both remorse and sadness. He is even close to crying IMO, then Betty puts her hand on his shoulder as if to say "Its ok."

 

[UltimateJustin]

it's pretty much the same thing re-worded to sound less empty, mindless and action packed...

it doesn't full me though

Well, it fools me. Its gonna be off tha hi-hat when it comes out. I'm going to jump up in someones face and get all excited and start calling people names. Its gonna be awesome.

 

[Bannerless Hulk]

This is something subtly suggested in Hulk but it is definately there, to me it becomes the most obvious when they Gamma Bomb Hulk and David Banner. Ross obviously thinks both are dead and shows both remorse and sadness. He is even close to crying IMO, then Betty puts her hand on his shoulder as if to say "Its ok."

I dunno. I watched the scene again last night and his only words are, "Gentlemen, release." Everything else is nonverbals. There's definitely angst with Ross, but we don't know exactly why. Betty consoles him with a pat on the shoulder, as you mention, but then later on, he calls her and seems to express concern that Bruce may have survived. But why would he be concerned if he wanted him dead? It seems that he either hopes or fears Bruce survived, and I don't think the movie gives us conclusive proof one way or the other. We see too broad a range of emotions from Ross to say anything with much certainty. I'm thinking that Ang Lee was scared to make that decision for us - to present Ross, the crazy general, as a concerned father and friend or as Ross, the crazy general who's bent on taking down David and Bruce with no regrets.

Sava, I looked up P2P and read briefly about it. I then did a search for the "Hulk: The End" issue and read a couple of synopses on it. The Hulk and cockroaches outlast us all and he contemplates his existence... I get the idea. Will look for the issue when I get a chance to stop at a store. "Virtual" issues of the comics just aren't the same IMO.

 

[Sava]

Sava, I looked up P2P and read briefly about it. I then did a search for the "Hulk: The End" issue and read a couple of synopses on it. The Hulk and cockroaches outlast us all and he contemplates his existence... I get the idea. Will look for the issue when I get a chance to stop at a store. "Virtual" issues of the comics just aren't the same IMO.

look up the comic in wikipedia, you get a more detailed description of the story and its even better than what i said

Spoiler

The story follows the narrative of Bruce Banner and the Hulk following a war which ended in a violent nuclear holocaust that only they could have survived.

Banner begins the story, talking to a camera left by a robot Recorder belonging to one of The Watchers to record "The Last Days of Earth" as an archival lesson for other planets.

While Banner is forced to drown in sorrow as the last human alive on Earth, wandering for years across the ruins of the old cities and remembering what he can of the world before, the Hulk (in his Rampaging Hulk form) is angry at Banner, in that with Banner he is still not alone in the World. During one of Banner's walks, he is beset upon some monstrously overgrown cockroaches, mutated by the nuclear fallout, and it is the Hulk who gets up to try and stop them.

When Banner awakens later, he watches a video recording made by the alien camera of the cockroaches eating the Hulk alive before he heals.

The story is mainly fueled by the fact that Banner and the Hulk's desires, even at the end of the world, are still conflicted; whereas Hulk still stubbornly wishes to prove himself the strongest being on Earth, Banner merely wishes to die, attempting suicides that fail when he becomes the Hulk again.

Eventually, Banner falls asleep in an old cave, only to dream of a woman with the appearance of Betty Ross. In the dream, he becomes young again and they begin to make love amongst a paradise. However, when she begins to talk, saying that the two will eventually be 'like gods', Banner awakens violently.

In the midst of a painful heart attack, Banner realizes how much his punishment resembles that of Prometheus, the Last Titan; condemned to stay forever alive even while animals devour him. As he dies, the Hulk's persona arises in his mind. Banner pleads with the Hulk, begging him to simply let go of his conflicts - claiming that they are going to a paradise where all their dead friends are, where they will be happy. Hulk throws away this suggestion because, in his eyes, friends have always betrayed him. Amongst a thunderous storm, Hulk proclaims that all he wants is to be left alone.

The next morning, the Hulk somberly sits outside the cave, musing in his inner monologue: "Banner is gone...got rid of him last night." As he remembers the confrontation, he realizes that if he were ever to change back to Banner, he would die also. The Hulk is glad, because he does not need Banner, only for the truly tragic realization to come upon him: "Hulk...strongest one there is. Hulk...only one there is...Hulk feels...cold."

 

[Bannerless Hulk]

Interesting story... kudos to Peter David. One question about the camera part: When it says, "When Banner awakens later, he watches a video recording made by the alien camera of the cockroaches eating the Hulk alive before he heals," where are the cockroaches?

The whole separation thing... how is Banner able to plead with the Hulk when he IS the Hulk? It seems that Banner and the Hulk have progressed to some state of MPD (multiple personality disorder) and the dominant personality (Hulk) takes over when the situation calls for it. Has this always been the case?

The dependence upon each other is somewhat confusing to me. They clearly seem to be separate personalities, yet Hulk is not able to remain the Hulk as he wishes? It seems therein lies a problem with the reason for transformation from one to the other. What really causes it? If it's anger, then doesn't the Hulk just need to stay angry to live on? If to kill Banner is to kill the Hulk, then how do we ever kill Banner when we know that suicide attempts "fail when he becomes the Hulk again"? It seems, logically, he would be trapped in an endless cycle of transforming and cannot be killed.

You mentioned in post #98 that Banner has a heart attack and is about to die, but the Hulk saves him. You then said "as soon as he changes back, Bruce will die." How does that work? How does the condition stay with Banner but not the Hulk? Is Banner too weak physically to simply transform back?

In any event, I can see where you derive the suicide concept that we were talking about a while ago. If your basis was this comic, then you used the right word and "sacrifice" would be something entirely different. But it's probably a little too doom-and-gloom for me.

 

[Sava]

Interesting story... kudos to Peter David. One question about the camera part: When it says, "When Banner awakens later, he watches a video recording made by the alien camera of the cockroaches eating the Hulk alive before he heals," where are the cockroaches?

i think they either just stay away or are underground. Not sure about that one.

The whole separation thing... how is Banner able to plead with the Hulk when he IS the Hulk? It seems that Banner and the Hulk have progressed to some state of MPD (multiple personality disorder) and the dominant personality (Hulk) takes over when the situation calls for it. Has this always been the case?

I think Huk takes over when Bruce is in danger (heart attack, suicide attempt) not when he feels like it. The thing about htem talking to each other, yeah, i think the MPD has evolved cause Bruce has/had no one to talk to.

The dependence upon each other is somewhat confusing to me. They clearly seem to be separate personalities, yet Hulk is not able to remain the Hulk as he wishes? It seems therein lies a problem with the reason for transformation from one to the other. What really causes it? If it's anger, then doesn't the Hulk just need to stay angry to live on? If to kill Banner is to kill the Hulk, then how do we ever kill Banner when we know that suicide attempts "fail when he becomes the Hulk again"? It seems, logically, he would be trapped in an endless cycle of transforming and cannot be killed.

no, i dont think Hulk's regeneration power workd like that for BRuce, it helps him live longer, but eventually he will die, it just takes him a couple of hundreds of years to get there. Hulk is fueled by adrenaline IMO and the one thing he wants, to be alone, is whats going to kill him in the end.

You mentioned in post #98 that Banner has a heart attack and is about to die, but the Hulk saves him. You then said "as soon as he changes back, Bruce will die." How does that work? How does the condition stay with Banner but not the Hulk? Is Banner too weak physically to simply transform back?

yeah, Banner's just too weak.

In any event, I can see where you derive the suicide concept that we were talking about a while ago. If your basis was this comic, then you used the right word and "sacrifice" would be something entirely different. But it's probably a little too doom-and-gloom for me.

yeah, it'll be too much for the general public too.

 

[Bannerless Hulk]

yeah, it'll be too much for the general public too.

Well, if we're honest, there's not much to the story, you know? Nuclear holocaust devastates all of creation and we're left to one man-beast's tale of survival. It's rather lonely in feel and not much substance, unless you're a Hulk diehard.

 

[antsiou]

Well, if we're honest, there's not much to the story, you know? Nuclear holocaust devastates all of creation and we're left to one man-beast's tale of survival. It's rather lonely in feel and not much substance, unless you're a Hulk diehard.

If you want, PM me, i have a digital version of "hulk: The ENd", i can send it over.

This story is very good, but self contained, and in the end , nothing more than a "what if"....
The art kicks massive butts too.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I dunno. I watched the scene again last night and his only words are, "Gentlemen, release." Everything else is nonverbals. There's definitely angst with Ross, but we don't know exactly why. Betty consoles him with a pat on the shoulder, as you mention, but then later on, he calls her and seems to express concern that Bruce may have survived. But why would he be concerned if he wanted him dead? It seems that he either hopes or fears Bruce survived, and I don't think the movie gives us conclusive proof one way or the other. We see too broad a range of emotions from Ross to say anything with much certainty. I'm thinking that Ang Lee was scared to make that decision for us - to present Ross, the crazy general, as a concerned father and friend or as Ross, the crazy general who's bent on taking down David and Bruce with no regrets.

But also when he calls Betty he tells her he is deeply sorry, and he sounds like he means it. He definately shows remorse at David's and Bruce's supposed death though.