The Dark Knight Rises Nolan...add Robin!!!!!!

[Abe Rush]

nobody ever said batman was well in the head

Yeah, but there's a cool way to be "not too well in the head" and a bad one... and unfortunately, if that's the way he really thinks, it's the bad one.

 

[Ronny Shade]

Its all about obsession. That's what all of the batman movies were missing.

 

[StorminNorman]

Its all about obsession. That's what all of the batman movies were missing.

Batman would disagree:

"People think it's an obession. A compusion. As if there were an irresistible impulse to act. It's never been like that. I CHOSE this life. I know what I'm doing. And on any day, I could stop doing it. Today, however, isn't that day. And tomorrow won't be either."

- Batman , Identity Crisis.

 

[El Payaso]

Batman should do what Ra's Al Ghul does...

To create a cult and train/brainwash people to help in the destruction of civilizations that are not of his taste?

 

[El Payaso]

You--like Eros--miss the point. The options were for Batman to allow these kids to go out on their own and get themselves killed, or take them in, train them, and give them the tools to keep themselves alive. They were going to go out and do these things whether he liked it or not; the only thing Batman could do was assert some control on the situation and do his best to keep them alive.

Understand, there was no "they stay at home and be like normal children" option. They were going to put themselves in danger no matter what.

So if Batman had a daughter who liked to spoend night screwing sailors, Batman should just resign himself and hand her a bunch of rubbers. She's going to do it anyway.

Batman would disagree:

"People think it's an obession. A compusion. As if there were an irresistible impulse to act. It's never been like that. I CHOSE this life. I know what I'm doing. And on any day, I could stop doing it. Today, however, isn't that day. And tomorrow won't be either."

- Batman , Identity Crisis.

"It's not who I am underneath, it's what I do that defines me" - Batman, Batman Begins.

So no matter what he has to say about himself, it's his actions. That could be Batman folling himself. His actions are concrete. He training a boy for risking his life in an ilegal activity is not something that a normal man would do. Obssession could lead to that I think.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

So if Batman had a daughter who liked to spoend night screwing sailors, Batman should just resign himself and hand her a bunch of rubbers. She's going to do it anyway.

LOL. I remember when you and I had this argument.

While Batman should not resign himself to that situation, nor can he lock her away in a dungeon. The only way you can teach a child is by example. Set a good example and the child will follow. Which, you will say, is why Batman should not raise a child. That's a valid point. On the other hand, I think it may also be the reason he's the only man who could have raised Dick Grayson after the boy's parents were murdered.

 

[Ronny Shade]

Batman would disagree:

"People think it's an obession. A compusion. As if there were an irresistible impulse to act. It's never been like that. I CHOSE this life. I know what I'm doing. And on any day, I could stop doing it. Today, however, isn't that day. And tomorrow won't be either."

- Batman , Identity Crisis.

Sounds like obsession to me

 

[El Payaso]

^ Sounds like 'I am not an addict, I can quit whenever I want.'

LOL. I remember when you and I had this argument.



While Batman should not resign himself to that situation, nor can he lock her away in a dungeon. The only way you can teach a child is by example. Set a good example and the child will follow. Which, you will say, is why Batman should not raise a child. That's a valid point.

You said it man (bold letters).

Can't believe we fought so much about this very point.

On the other hand, I think it may also be the reason he's the only man who could have raised Dick Grayson after the boy's parents were murdered.

The thing is how could Batman know this. Because knowing that could be the reason to actually doing it.

 

[Ronny Shade]

^ Sounds like 'I am not an addict, I can quit whenever I want.'

exactly

You said it man (bold letters).

Can't believe we fought so much about this very point.

The thing is how could Batman know this. Because knowing that could be the reason to actually doing it.

Batman training Dick Grayson doesn't have to be ethical in order to work. It has to make sense within the characterization of Batman. Batman is balancing scales all the time. This is a moral dilemma. Batman should wrestle with both sides of it, but he doesn't always have to do the "right thing"

 

[Saint]

I'm not going to bother responding to Eros, because he clearly has no interest in actually reading my posts and would rather blather on about things I've already addressed.

So if Batman had a daughter who liked to spoend night screwing sailors, Batman should just resign himself and hand her a bunch of rubbers. She's going to do it anyway.

That actually is the position some parents have, but in any case it's not the same thing at all--here's the thing about normal kids: you can sometimes stop them from doing things. Not all things, but some things. That was not true of Dick Grayson, because Dick Grayson is not normal. Of course Batman resisted the idea, and of course it wasn't ideal, but it was inevitable that Dick was going to put himself in danger regardless of the situation. Batman helped Dick channel that effort into something positive, he didn't just say "ah well, I'll just let him go kill the man who murdered his parents," which is exactly what Dick would have tried to do without Batman's intervention. In Nightwing #100, Dick says that if it weren't for Batman, he would have ended up like Tarantula (since you seem to nothing about the comics, I will explain to you that Tarantula was a particularly murderous vigilante who wound up in prison).

It is important to note that Dick--like Tim, and to a lesser extent, Jason--was not an average child. He was exceptionally skilled before he ever Batman, and as such the standard procedure of locking him up in his room wasn't going to work. It was an extreme situation and Batman created an extreme solution. This isn't like dressing up your twelve year old cousin.

No, it wasn't the best decision he's ever made, but the truth is Batman's made plenty of bad decisions. Batman has always been prone to extreme, unorthodox solutions. He built an artificially intelligent satellite to monitor his own allies. When he was crippled, he handed over the batcave to Jean-Paul Valley, a man conditioned by a secret order to be an enforcing assassin. He kept a record of how to defeat any given member of the Justice League--along with the weapons to do it--which was stolen by Ra's Al Ghul and used to smash the League.

And--I almost forgot--he left home at fourteen years old to travel the world and learn to become a crime fighter dressed as a bat.

Bruce Wayne does not do normal things, because he is not normal. He's always been a little crazy, and his treatment of his children reflects that. It is crazy. His allies call him on it all the time. Gordon, Superman, they all tell him it's a mistake. But he does it, because that's who he is.

In any case--I'm not sure why we're still having the conversation. I've already said that in the film Robin should be used chiefly in out-of-danger situations like support and recon. You guys just keep ignoring it.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

You said it man (bold letters).

Can't believe we fought so much about this very point.

Well, I was enjoying the argument back then, and I had another tactic that I tried to take in response to that point. When I'm attempting to win an argument I'm reticent to give any ground as it puts me on the defensive. The problem was that once I took that "stronger" tactic I couldn't take it back, because it would mean giving an even larger amount of ground.

Now, so far removed from that old argument, it really doesn't matter.

The thing is how could Batman know this. Because knowing that could be the reason to actually doing it.

I think Bruce knows it, or at least believes it (which can be just as potent a feeling) because when he looks at Dick he sees young Bruce, having lost his parents, and he knows what it's like. Naturally he keeps his Batman business secret from Dick, tries to give Dick that normal life, and Dick wants out of Wayne manor because he wants to pursue vengeance.

I think one of the few things "Batman Forever" got right was Dick's rejection of Bruce and the offer of a normal life because Dick wants vengeance. They also got right Bruce's desire to keep secret from Dick the Batman stuff, and to keep him out of that other half of his life at any cost. Finally, they also got right Dick's desire to be a part of it once he finds out about it.

Where "Batman Forever" failed was threefold. First, that Bruce would ever give up being Batman. That just wouldn't happen. Second, Chris O'Donnell was too old to behave the way the script had him behaving. He was a grown man and we were asked to accept him as a teenager. That doesn't play. Third, "Forever" failed to resolve the conflict adequately. I always hated that Dick ran away and magically reappeared at the end, ready to fight alongside Bruce... and that Bruce had somehow had a change of heart without any apparent thought put into it.

They had half of it right, though. And I *know* it could be done properly. I'm not in any hurry to see it, but I'm sure it could be done.

 

[Saint]

On the other hand, I think it may also be the reason he's the only man who could have raised Dick Grayson after the boy's parents were murdered.

Yeah, which has been my point--Dick was going to go out and take justice into his own hands no matter what. Without Batman, he would have run off to fight Zucco and would have gotten killed. If he had been sent to an orphanage or a foster home, he would have gotten out and done the same thing. If Bruce had locked him in the mansion, he would have gotten out and done the same thing. The situation had to be resolved. In Dark Victory Bruce thought he could solve the problem by training Dick for a one-time mission to bring in Zucco, and then Dick could be a normal child. It didn't work out that way, because Dick isn't normal. He forced himself into the role.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Yeah, which has been my point--Dick was going to go out and take justice into his own hands no matter what. Without Batman, he would have run off to fight Zucco and would have gotten killed. If he had been sent to an orphanage or a foster home, he would have gotten out and done the same thing. If Bruce had locked him in the mansion, he would have gotten out and done the same thing. The situation had to be resolved. In Dark Victory Bruce thought he could solve the problem by training Dick for a one-time mission to bring in Zucco, and then Dick could be a normal child. It didn't work out that way, because Dick isn't normal. He forced himself into the role.

Hey, I hear ya, Saint. I've been saying it on these boards for a year now. I agree with you 100%. The thing El Payaso normally says in return is that this doesn't make it right. But like you and Ronny have both pointed out - it doesn't have to be right. It only has to be right from Batman's point of view. And his point of view is definitely a tad skewed. Noble and heroic, but skewed.

 

[Saint]

Hey, I hear ya, Saint. I've been saying it on these boards for a year now. I agree with you 100%. The thing El Payaso normally says in return is that this doesn't make it right. But like you and Ronny have both pointed out - it doesn't have to be right. It only has to be right from Batman's point of view. And his point of view is definitely a tad skewed. Noble and heroic, but skewed.

Exactly.

 

[Mike_D202]

Ever time you post we all grow alittle dumber. Thier is no excuse for dressing kids up and allowing them to fight crime buy your side. I hope you never have kids, because with your mentality you would teach troubled little kids how to use guns,knives,explosives,cocaine, etc so that they are experienced and dun go out and get themselves killed.

Someone is starting to sound like the old Barbera Gordon from Batman Beyond... *points out the pink elephant in the room*

Your new name is Barbera.

 

[El Payaso]

That actually is the position some parents have, but in any case it's not the same thing at all--here's the thing about normal kids: you can sometimes stop them from doing things. Not all things, but some things. That was not true of Dick Grayson, because Dick Grayson is not normal. Of course Batman resisted the idea, and of course it wasn't ideal, but it was inevitable that Dick was going to put himself in danger regardless of the situation. Batman helped Dick channel that effort into something positive, he didn't just say "ah well, I'll just let him go kill the man who murdered his parents," which is exactly what Dick would have tried to do without Batman's intervention. In Nightwing #100, Dick says that if it weren't for Batman, he would have ended up like Tarantula (since you seem to nothing about the comics, I will explain to you that Tarantula was a particularly murderous vigilante who wound up in prison).

It is important to note that Dick--like Tim, and to a lesser extent, Jason--was not an average child. He was exceptionally skilled before he ever Batman, and as such the standard procedure of locking him up in his room wasn't going to work. It was an extreme situation and Batman created an extreme solution. This isn't like dressing up your twelve year old cousin.

So determinism is what justifies Robin.

"He's not normal." He is somehow genetically determined to look for revenge so no lock, orphanage, not even a loving family, good therapy or caring guidance is going to help this 8 y.o. kid from escape and kill a man.

If that was possible and most of all, if the characters themselves could be self-conscious of this somehow, then we could say Batman's training weas the best - or least bad - option.

No, it wasn't the best decision he's ever made, but the truth is Batman's made plenty of bad decisions. Batman has always been prone to extreme, unorthodox solutions. He built an artificially intelligent satellite to monitor his own allies. When he was crippled, he handed over the batcave to Jean-Paul Valley, a man conditioned by a secret order to be an enforcing assassin. He kept a record of how to defeat any given member of the Justice League--along with the weapons to do it--which was stolen by Ra's Al Ghul and used to smash the League.

And--I almost forgot--he left home at fourteen years old to travel the world and learn to become a crime fighter dressed as a bat.

Bruce Wayne does not do normal things, because he is not normal. He's always been a little crazy, and his treatment of his children reflects that. It is crazy. His allies call him on it all the time. Gordon, Superman, they all tell him it's a mistake. But he does it, because that's who he is.

One thing is Batman doing ilegal stuff to fight crime and the police being ok with it because he's helping the main cause.

Another thing is Gordon and every Gotham authority giving a blind eye on Batman's minors perversion which are serious charges. Not only ilegal but dangerous for society. Every kid with blood thirst would know their best way of action is to become costumed vigilantes.

In any case--I'm not sure why we're still having the conversation. I've already said that in the film Robin should be used chiefly in out-of-danger situations like support and recon. You guys just keep ignoring it.

As you keep ignoring Nolan won't work with Robin. And Bale is of the same mind.

Well, I was enjoying the argument back then, and I had another tactic that I tried to take in response to that point. When I'm attempting to win an argument I'm reticent to give any ground as it puts me on the defensive. The problem was that once I took that "stronger" tactic I couldn't take it back, because it would mean giving an even larger amount of ground.

Now, so far removed from that old argument, it really doesn't matter.

You can run but you can't hide huh?

I think Bruce knows it, or at least believes it (which can be just as potent a feeling) because when he looks at Dick he sees young Bruce, having lost his parents, and he knows what it's like. Naturally he keeps his Batman business secret from Dick, tries to give Dick that normal life, and Dick wants out of Wayne manor because he wants to pursue vengeance.

Now what kind of a fatherly figure can adopt a kid knowing and being ready to hide him such a big secret on the daily basis? (of course IF a court could give a orphan kid in adoption to this shallow bachelor in the first place)

I think one of the few things "Batman Forever" got right was Dick's rejection of Bruce and the offer of a normal life because Dick wants vengeance. They also got right Bruce's desire to keep secret from Dick the Batman stuff, and to keep him out of that other half of his life at any cost. Finally, they also got right Dick's desire to be a part of it once he finds out about it.

I'd say the best part was that the Bruce-Dick relationship was a older-younger brother and not father-son.

Where "Batman Forever" failed was threefold. First, that Bruce would ever give up being Batman. That just wouldn't happen.

Really? wasn't Bruce ready to quit Batman once he fell in love with Rachel Caspian/Andrea Beaumont?

Second, Chris O'Donnell was too old to behave the way the script had him behaving. He was a grown man and we were asked to accept him as a teenager. That doesn't play.

Where's exactly the naiveness of the character?

Yeah, which has been my point--Dick was going to go out and take justice into his own hands no matter what. Without Batman, he would have run off to fight Zucco and would have gotten killed. If he had been sent to an orphanage or a foster home, he would have gotten out and done the same thing. If Bruce had locked him in the mansion, he would have gotten out and done the same thing. The situation had to be resolved. In Dark Victory Bruce thought he could solve the problem by training Dick for a one-time mission to bring in Zucco, and then Dick could be a normal child. It didn't work out that way, because Dick isn't normal. He forced himself into the role.

Whoa, that sounds like he's Terminator.

A 8 y.o. kid can escape any kind of prison and kill a mob boss. I know we're talking about fantasy here but come on.

 

[xforce]

Yes, the Robin character(s) may work well in the comics, where he expands Batmans character, but movies work in an entirely different way than comics.

In Nolan's universe, Robin wouldn't last half an hour.
It's not the cute cuddly "tie-up-the-boy-and-wait-for-Bats-to-rescue-him-again" world of the 60ies or the comic universe with no roots in reality.

Nolan's villians would just put a bullet in his head at first sight.

 

[Ronny Shade]

movies work in an entirely different way than comics.

They really don't.

 

[El Payaso]

They're different. Don't know if totally or entirely. But they are.

 

[Ronny Shade]

They're a little different. But really not much. There are silly movies and there are silly comics. Serious movies and serious comics. The only real difference is that people started taking movies seriously before they started taking comics seriously.

 

[raybia]

Yes, the Robin character(s) may work well in the comics, where he expands Batmans character, but movies work in an entirely different way than comics.

In Nolan's universe, Robin wouldn't last half an hour.
It's not the cute cuddly "tie-up-the-boy-and-wait-for-Bats-to-rescue-him-again" world of the 60ies or the comic universe with no roots in reality.

Nolan's villians would just put a bullet in his head at first sight.

I would agree with you based on Nolan's previous comments and vision for BB. However, be aware though, that was on BB and not TDK.

I'm not suggesting that Nolan will abandon his vision but BB was the starting point for the new foundation of the Batman franchise and you always build fro the ground (ed) up.

I think TDK will represent an evolution of Nolan's vision and the result will be a more fantastic, if you will.

I'm not saying anywhere as fantastic as a Spider-Man or X-Men movie, but more so than what BB was with more "suspenion of disbelief."

 

[Saint]

So determinism is what justifies Robin.

"He's not normal." He is somehow genetically determined to look for revenge so no lock, orphanage, not even a loving family, good therapy or caring guidance is going to help this 8 y.o. kid from escape and kill a man.

That is correct--for the same reasons that nobody could stop Bruce from becoming Batman, despite their best efforts.

One thing is Batman doing ilegal stuff to fight crime and the police being ok with it because he's helping the main cause.

Another thing is Gordon and every Gotham authority giving a blind eye on Batman's minors perversion which are serious charges.

It doesn't matter if they turn a blind eye or not: he's Batman. They can't catch him, they can't do ****. Batman breaks the law to do the right thing all the time (in real life, Batman would be facing so many aggravated assault charges that he'd spend his entire life in prison), and this extends to Robin.

Not only ilegal but dangerous for society. Every kid with blood thirst would know their best way of action is to become costumed vigilantes.

Oh, please. You're really reaching now.

As you keep ignoring Nolan won't work with Robin. And Bale is of the same mind.

No, I just don't care what Nolan said. People change their minds all the time. Raimi said he didn't want to do Venom, and surprise, now he's doing Venom. I can only hope the same thing will happen with Nolan.

A 8 y.o. kid can escape any kind of prison and kill a mob boss. I know we're talking about fantasy here but come on.

What the hell are you talking about? First of all, Dick was twelve--not eight--and second, who said anything about a prison? I said foster home and mansion. You can't lock him up in a prison because he isn't guilty of anything. The only places Dick would be--an orphanage, a foster home, or Wayne Manor, he would simply get out of. Kids get out of these places all the time, there would simply be no way to prevent it--especially with a boy so skilled as Dick. I also never said he would kill Zucco--I said he would try to, and get himself killed in the process.

Please, stop wasting my time and read some Robin stories before running your mouth.

 

[Apollo]

i hate robin, he gets in the way!

 

[Ronny Shade]

your face gets in the way!

 

[Apollo]

robin would kill the movie, just like batman forever and Batman and Robin,

batman shouldnt have a sidekick!