He’s a great, important character… but he worked so much better alone that the third Robin actually debuted in the Robin series.
Wrong again, Melkay. He debuted in costume, as Robin, in the Batman comics. Twice. Once in Jason Todd's old suit, and once in the custom one Bruce had made for him. I believe in the latter example he literally said "Gentlemen...meet the new Robin".
Oh, you're talking about when he actually went out as Robin on a regular basis.
You should be more specfic.
That's
four
And it spends much of his time in that title, or with the Teen Titans. Makes you think about his relationship to Batman, doesn’t it?
No, it makes me realize how good a characterization it is. Because I understand how Tim Drake has evolved, because I've actually READ the comics. He still works with Batman fairly often.
Read again what I said about the Modern Mythology issue. From now on I will not quote anything else that recurs to this reasoning.
Oh? So you'd LIKE to go back to the "Robin's been around for 60 years, try to argue how he's not important now" argument?
Fair enough, we'll go there.
Melkay...Robin's been around for 60 years. Sixty years of presence in Batman stories outweights your precious "four" YEAR ONE/ELSEWORLDS style examples.
This is fun, isn't it?
But I guess Robin wasn’t around there because Todd was a prick, right?
I don't know. I'm not Alan Moore and I didn't run DC at the time. I suspect that's why, though, yes.
Not sure why you're celebrating. Alan Moore doesn't like a lot of things. I wouldn't be so quick to ally yourself with his POV.
They had enough time to put the Penguin, Two-Face, Alfred and Harvey Bullock there. How is not possible to add one little vignette with Robin? Not even the logo in some suit at the batcave, man. Moore must have really despised Robin. Oh no, sorry, just Jason Todd.
Again, I'm not Alan Moore, nor did I work for DC at the time. All I can do is speculate.
It tells me that the title was poorly chosen. Based on the actual movie, it should have had been more like ROBIN & BATGIRL (and mr. Freeze and Alfred and that bald guy and the Commissioner… and Batman): SUB ZERO. When Batman becomes the side-kick, the title is the less of your worries.
I'm tempted to add up the screentime for each character.
Nah.
(SHH Trivia: I did this once years ago when someone me that Batman had less screentime in all his own movies, and already know the results).
My point stands from even before, since I recall stating that I didn’t have a problem with Robin as a character, just his relationship dynamic with Batman. Once that is removed, I can really enjoy Robin.
O...k.
It’s not a spin at all. I said that it wasn’t present in most of the first season, and that once he was established, the whole Batman thing wasn’t as important anymore.
Umm..."The whole Batman thing wasn't as important anymore"?
How did "Batman" become not as important to BTAS and TNBA, both a series based on HIM? That one you'll have to explain.
Robin was not treated like a supporting character, but as a co-protagonist (exemplified in the Sub Zero movie) which is wrong but predictable, since the character adds almost nothing to the character of Bruce. And what he adds, it’s not without contradictions. Besides, of all the people here, you don’t get to call anyone a spinner.
I don't think me saying you're spinning this is far off.
Here's what you said after I called you about being wrong about Robin being in most BTAS episodes.
Yes, it speaks for itself... it says that once that Robin was introduced, they were no longer the "BATMAN Animated Series". Like in the comics, the introduction of Robin messes up the dramatic focus.
Here's what you said before that.
Most part of the original BTAS... no Robin.
Notice, in your original statement, you didn't say a word about the introduction of Robin messing up the dramatic focus, Melkay. That was never part of your argument, and it doesn't speak for itself, actually, because you made a simple point. You said "Most part of the original BTAS...No Robin". You used this in the context to show another poster that they were wrong about Robin being present in every medium.
Near as I can tell, you were incorrect when you specifically used "the original BTAS" as an example of where Robin was not prevalent.
Just calling it like I see it.
Glad you noticed. You can relate to the feeling, right?
Just to be informed, how many things are we permitted to forgive each other?
Sure, and when I do misspeak, I tend to go "Oh. My bad. I forgot about that."
I don't usually make up random straw arguments and dodge clarifying questions to avoid admitting my mistakes.
I already invalidated this point, showing you all the important works I was citing that didn’t took place in Batman’s first year. Then you recurred to Modern Mythology and Not Being In Continuity, and I recurred to the “Maybe the new films will bring a new shift in comics” and the “Most of the early works with Robin are not in continuity either, and shouldn’t be used by the pro-Robin crowd”.
When you say "all", are you really talking about the three to five "important works" you keep referencing?
Fair enough. You don't think modern mythology is a good filter. So you'd like to throw modern mythology as an example for Robin's relevance out the window? Would you like to throw all the modern mythology examples out?
I would call it a tie, but there’s still the thing about “quality > quantity”, and that makes the whole deal of this debate.
The apparent fact that you can't remember any quality Robin stories is your issue, not everyone else's. I suspect you may never have read them. Actually, a lot of people here suspect you may never have read them.
Who knows? Maybe the “origins” and “final years” Batman works are the most famous because they don’t have Robin in it.
Umm, TDKR is a "final years" tale and prominently features Robin. And KINGDOM COME, the other famous "final years" tale that involves Batman features Red Robin, who is a version of Robin as an adult.
Batman spends more time alone than with her, and he will spend even more time training an army. It is, after all, a legacy story, not a side-kick cooperation one. It’s about raising a whole generation of vigilantes, of which Carrie is just the first recruit.
Spending time alone doesn't invalidate the concept of Robin. As for what you seem to think TDKR is "about"...nope. You're confusing TDKSA and TDKR.
TKDR is very much about Robin as a sidekick and her cooperation with Batman as his partner and ally. TDKSA is about legacy and Batman's team.
Hmmm, sounds like the end of The Dark Knight. Sounds EXACTLY like the Batman we know. In The Dark Knight Returns, the end is the most familiar territory, Batman-wise. And that’s why Robin ends so minimized…. Because, with BATMAN, it’s not about side-kick cooperation.
Uh, no. The end of TDKR is some of the most unfamiliar territory we've ever seen Batman in. Alfred dies, Bruce Wayne gives up his name and any semblance of a normal life, he goes underground with many former murderers, gang members and criminals...
Are you high?
Robin doesn't become minimized at the end of TDKR at all. She becomes even more important to the mission, because she's his first pupil. And in TDKSA, she's even MORE important.
… and the constant torment over his past judgement errors with the previous Robins.
What's your point? This is an element of their relationship.
My point is that DC kept the character afloat because they wanted him to stay, not because the odds pointed out that at his origins. The reasons were forced upon us and it requires a MASSIVE suspension of disbelief.
What massive suspension of disbelief? It requires the same suspension of disbelief that had been seen and accepted for over 50 years.
And Tim Drake’s individual stories don’t count. I’m not arguing about the quality of the character, I’m arguing against his relationship to Bruce.
Tim Drake's individual stories often include his relationship to Bruce. So they do count.
Then my initial point stands.
Umm...what was your initial point, that Batman should throw him in jail?
He’s a kid who jumps trapezes and had some karate lessons
He's a highly trained acrobat with martial arts skills. He's always been portrayed as very capable.
Like you said, it was only his home.
Still waiting for this suspension of disbelief contradiction you keep talking about.
He doesn’t turn a “blind eye” for anyone else. No one else. Why is this kid special?
And...
five.
1. Harvey Dent
2. Azrael
3. Catwoman
4. Anarky
5. Ra's and Talia Al Ghul
6. Bronze Tiger
7. Zatanna and the JLA
8. Hal Jordan
9. The Riddler
10. The Penguin
Among others. There are other characters whose actions Batman has turned a blind eye to on some level over the years. People whose past transgressions he had forgiven, people whose crimes he has ignored to ally himself with them. Batman has seen people do bad things and then helped them or not condemned or jailed them several times. In fact, he's worked with many of them. Azrael, in particular was a trained assassin...and Batman decided that it was ok to make him into the new Batman. Hal Jordan almost destroyed the Universe. The Riddler and Penguin have been Batman foes for years.
Ask Oldman’s Gordon, he’s the one who said “He can take IT”.
Seriously, it’s meant to be the pressure of the job. The life risks (not just for himself) and the psychological toll.
Clearly the various people who have been Robin were able to as well.
What were those reasons again? I’m still stuck with the bad origins.
Especially the ones in BTAS.
I don’t mind Batman having multiple “gray areas” as long as they don’t contradict each other. That’s the point.
If you really want me to point out to you why Bruce Wayne lets Dick operate as Robin, I will elaborate. Would you like that?
I don’t mind Batman having multiple “gray areas” as long as they don’t contradict each other. That’s the point.
Did you just say that "gray areas" shouldn't contradict each other?
That's kind of the POINT of "gray areas", Melkay. Ideals and ideas that contradict each other.
Bruce spent almost a decade training his body, mind and soul into it. He also had all the resources. How did Robin prepare himself for the job again? Right, acrobatic skills and martial arts.
Yup, and extensive training from Batman, who gave Robin the resources.
You're stuck in this place where you seem to think no one can be a costumed vigilante and fight crime if they aren't as good as Batman. That's just silly thinking.
Comics Bruce had all the extensive foreign training during many years, and Beings took that. What are you planning to invent for Robin?
Don't need to invent it. It's already there. Robin has access to Bruce Wayne's knowledge and training. Again, you're stuck in this place where you seem to think no one can be a costumed vigilante and fight crime if they aren't as good as Batman. That's just silly thinking.
Exactly. Are we supposed to believe that Robin has that edge?
Robin has been shown to have an edge that helps him to survive for 60 years.
Maybe Dick now is more skilled than Bruce.
Dick has been shown for the majority of his career to be at a comparable skill level as Batman, especially as Nightwing, as he grew older. Many fans and writers think he is nearly Bruce's equal at this point. It's debatable.
So, your idea for integrating Robin in the series is to PUSH DOWN even further the level of realism when it comes to fighting. Genius. Keep pushing down until you reach the level where Robin can put a decent fight without being beaten to death by the Joker with a crowbar.
Nooo...I was making a completely separate point about how the Batman movie franchise has not portrayed Batman's skills consistently any more than any other source material has, and how Batman's skill level appears to be story-driven. How you get that this could be about Robin from quoting something I said where I never even MENTION Robin is beyond me.
If the kid can be put away in some reformatory, why go through all the trouble of making him Robin?
Why would Bruce put Dick Grayson in jail?
That... is.... THE.... ultimate.... example of.... delusion.
So is believing you can prevent any more pain or death from happening. Maybe you don't understand Batman as well as you think you do.
... Where is Bruce going to find the time to train this problematic pre-adolescent boy if he doesn't even have time to sleep?
Where does Bruce find time to do anything in his comic book world?
Another silly, silly question.
I just hope he doesn't leave the coach gig to Alfred.
Some of the training was carried out by Alfred, yes.
Check what I said about the current dynamic being to dependent of what happened on A Death In The Family. Apart from that and Drake's overall absence, that's pretty much all there's to it.
You really don't understand this mythology, do you? I mean, that's really all I can say to your baffling refusal to see things for what they are.
A DEATH IN THE FAMILY is related to Jason Todd.
Dick Grayson and Tim Drake have their own, unique interactions with Bruce Wayne that have very little to do with A DEATH IN THE FAMILY besides the fact that Jason died before Tim became Robin.
Tim is definetely lighter than Grayson.... what are you comparing Tim to, the Silver Age Robin? Be objective here, please.
How is Tim lighter than Dick Grayson?
Be specific please.
I'll repeat one more time... in the Robin origin, Robin has a copelling reason for his initiave, but Batmans has NONE for his acceptance and enabling.
1. To mentor a child who may otherwise be lost emotionally to a desire for revenge. To show him the right way, to prevent Grayson from succumbing to anger and a desire for revenge
2. To give Grayson a good life, when so much has been taken from him
3. To keep Dick Grayson alive, period.
4. To have a friend, a son, and a partner.
5. For help in his mission against crime.
6. To attempt to become his father in some fashion, a key psychological component in a man's development.
7. He has immense potential to help people due to his natural compassion and drive. Bruce recognizes this and wants to help Dick harness it.
Now, I just can't bring myself to call these things "not compelling"...because they are. Purely logical? No. But neither is dressing up as a giant bat. Neither is vigilante activity. Nor are half the things Batman does.
The similarities between Tim and Dick are fairly scarce and superficial. But since you have already demonstrated a lack of knowledge on the character, I am not surprised you think this.
Agreed.
. This is going to be a long night.
Guard, it is selective aging the moment that Dick is no longer Robin, and is replaced by another boy of about the same age he was when he began being Robin. That way, Batman keeps getting older… but ROBIN doesn’t. Dick is 22, but Tim may be about 14-15, and Batman keeps aging.
