The Dark Knight Rises Nolan...add Robin!!!!!!

[hatebox]

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone here who believes that if Nolan returns he'll actually use Robin in any shape or form? That's a genuine question, not rhetorical.

 

[wellsy]

In answer to your question hatebox, I think it's definately a possibility. While I do doubt that he'll fo it (given his previous statements on the matter), I can also see the story for it. In short, I can see him doing it, but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't.

Oh...Sage, almost 70 years of Batman doing what Melkay says he wouldn't do would tend to indicate that Melkay is wrong about what Batman would or would not do. And he has no proof that Bruce would never take on a partner from the movies. It's basically just his opinion. The Batman in his head would never take on a partner because of the risks involved, the time it would take to train him, etc.

None of which holds up as anything that couldn't be overcome with a decent explanation to create a fantastic adaption of Robin on film.

As long as you want to honor the character as he's always existed.

Robin is not neccessary, but he's very possible.

Unless you want to reinvent Batman, as Melkay seems to want to do...and then hey, anything's "not possible".

Guard, I don't think Melkay is really questioning the vailidity of the character's role, but rather the validity of his introduction. In short (and I can actually understand this, especially in the contxt of the Nolan films), he feels that the way Bruce decides to take Dick on as a partner is a little too forced.

As for the dynamics of the relationship... well, I think we both agree with you as far as Dick and Tim being Bruce's sons.

 

[wellsy]

I get your aversion against multi-quoting, Wellsy. However, I need to use it a little to address some disagreements. I'll keep it to a minimum, of course. Everything that I don't talk about here you can considert it as an agreement.

The problem with this is that in the current mythology Dick didn't find out who Batman was. Bruce revealed it to the boy. [1]

That would be a violent transformation of Dick's character, since he wouldn't be conformed with staying in the Batcave, as the comics have demonstrated over and over again. [2]

I fail to see how jokes are supposed to counter-balance all the tragedies that you are supposed to face when you are fighting crime. I get that some people use jokes as a defense mechanism, and probably Dick would use lots of them, but would that have an actually significant part on Batman's psyche? Wouldn't those jokes be nullified with Batman's constant worry for Robin's lie in the battlefield? [3]

Which takes us to the part of other people's reactions to a boy side-kick. How many allies would lose faith on Batman's rationality after that? Gordon included. How many enemies would lose respect and fear over a guy that takes a kid along with him out of sympathy? Because, how many more reasons are there? And I know we're supposed to be beyond the homophobic jokes... but what about the low-life criminals? Criminals are not "politically correct". Wouldn't they start laughing with the whole "Batman must be gay" thing? Sure, they will still fear him, just not so much as before. "Hey, who's afraid of the big gay bat?". [4]

Batman puts dangerous, deranged, psychotic mass murderers in control all the time. These are villains that literally force their relationship with Batman. And there are the copycats, vigilantes who force themselves over and over into helping Batman take on Gotham's criminal element. But don't they become criminals in the process? And Batman doesn't care if they are doing ti for a right cause, he doesn't care if they force themselves into that... he just handles them until they're in control.
We're talking about dangerous strong umpredictable adults here. Is a young kid supposed to present so much trouble? His methods towards the boy wouldn't be so drastic, sure, bu there are a plethora of things to do. And if they boy keeps on trying to look for his revenge, he's committing a crime. I know it's hard to lock him up, but that's what Batman does all the time. It's not out of character for him. He can spare him several times and try to help him but there are limits Bruce is not willing to cross. [5]

Agreed. It would just have to be an adapted origin. I'm not so sure Alfred would approve of a 12-year-old going into fights with criminals. [6]

We have seen multiple times, both in comics and film, that fighting Gotham's criminal world is much more than running and jumping around rooftops or riding a bike. If that was the case, Bruce's seven+ years abroad training were completely unneccessary. [7]

Not at all. I still have a problem with what you say because it presents new contradictions with the material, which I respect to some degree (your Robin is too conformist) and because it keeps Dick's age at the start of his partnership. [8]

This is what I wrote to Crook, pointing out an origin that doesn't detract too much from the original, but fixes my main problem with it... [9]

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=16140188#post16140188

Don't worry, this IS exactly the thread's subject: Robin adaptation into the film franchise. Nothing else. Arguing about his values and flaws in the comic narrative is just a way to discuss what to adapt and what not into film. We just disagree on the specific adaptation, but at least we agree on what should be discussed here. [10]

Take care.

I find footnotes to be much easier to use (and format). Be forewarned, though, for a wall of text doth follow.

[1] - About this, on consideration, I think you're actually right. Dick finds out by accident, or works it out himself (but I think the latter is best saved for Tim Drake). Either way, I wasn't really dwelling to much on that part.

[2] - Well, we could add in your little story (see [9]) before that, as a prelude to Bruce putting Dick on the computer. I know I didn't bring that across in my original post, but essentially, something like that was precisely what I had envisioned as Dick essentially forcing himself on Bruce in terms of joining the crusade.

[3] - OK, maybe the jokes are a bit much. But just having someone who can relate, someone who understands, and who talks to you, would, in my mind help arrest Bruce's psychological self-destruction as the mission proceeded. This, of course, only stands in the current context of The Dark Knight, but I'm sure another set of circumstances can create a similar frame of mind.

Essentially, it's the interaction of the two that helps Bruce's mental health. Without Dick, he loses himself in Batman, and in that way Dick just being there helps.

Not to mention we're still talking about Dick being in the Batcave here. He's not quite Robin yet.

[4] - Gordon knows how insane Batman is. So why does he work with him anyway? Given the lingering resentment about Batman anyway after the rumours spread about him, Robin acting as the general go-between could work. I'm not quite sure how to make it work. Care to collaborate?

As for the gay jokes... well, given how much terror Batman strikes into the hearts of criminals, not to mention that Robin wouldn't be going out actually fighting for a few years yet (scouting, recon, and being the messenger keep him involved, but not actually fighting), in addition to the fact that no one really knows anything beyond the fact the work together (just like any office employees), kind of makes that sort of implication hard to build.

[5] - He puts the criminals away for obvious reasons. The vigilantes in TDK are also criminals, in particular, with firearms related offences. The fact that they get killed as well to me makes them another gang in a big turf war.

[6] - I generally agree with you there. But Alfred wouldn't be pushing "Robin" on Bruce. Just Dick. He'd push for Dick's presence, in order to help Bruce. I don't think he'd intend for Dick to become a vigilante/hero himself.

[7] - I think you misunderstood me. For the moment, Robin would essentially be messenger, scout and support. He wouldn't be on the front lines. That's where my original statement was coming from in terms of his previous training and equipment. I never intended to put Robin on the front lines until he was 15-16. While we're starting (ie 12, 13, 14, preferable 13-14), he would only be in support roles (due to training, and age).

[8] - I think keeping Dick's age is relatively important. Bruce is, in essence, creating a living legacy in terms of ensuring that his failures (ie not allowing someone's parents from being killed in front of them) can be turned into... successes isn't the word I'm looking for, but perhaps just preventing more failures than might otherwise occur. As for the conformist Robin, see [2] and [9].

[9] - I quite like that, and if you combine it with the roles I'd previously set out, then I think we could call that the Robin subplot of a Batman movie (since it's a Batman movie, not a Robin movie).

[10] - Actually, I feel that such proposals are more the domain of the Adapting Robin thread. However, both of them overlap somewhat, so it wasn't as off-topic as I was making it out to be.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i hate reading long posts, but hey...each to his/her own i suppose....

Yes it is ****ing annoying, especially when most of the time these things can be answered and replied to in a few sentences. Some people just chat on about a load of bollox and make their posts long winded to seem more intelligent.

 

[SuperKoala]

ha yeah I know what you mean.

 

[namtaB]

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone here who believes that if Nolan returns he'll actually use Robin in any shape or form? That's a genuine question, not rhetorical.

No.

 

[SuperKoala]

I highly doubt it

 

[namtaB]

i hate reading long posts, but hey...each to his/her own i suppose....

Yes it is ****ing annoying, especially when most of the time these things can be answered and replied to in a few sentences. Some people just chat on about a load of bollox and make their posts long winded to seem more intelligent.

I agree with you. That's why scrolling is probably my favorite feature on browsers.

 

[SuperKoala]

robin is a dying star. a white dwarf headed for the black hole. thats physics, it's inevitbal

 

[namtaB]

robin is a dying star. a white dwarf headed for the black hole. thats physics, it's inevitbal

What's his current status in the comic books? The polarization of this thread alone shows he's an influential character. Personally, I think he's the worst invention in the Batman universe for one simple reason. He's the cheesy sidekick.

 

[I Am The Knight]

The good part about long posts is that you don't have to read them, my friends. I've read *some* of the argument, and it has been interesting.

As far as Nolan using Robin....I don't think he will. He probably will not want to anger The Balester. Just saying.

 

[The Sage]

What's his current status in the comic books? The polarization of this thread alone shows he's an influential character. Personally, I think he's the worst invention in the Batman universe for one simple reason. He's the cheesy sidekick.

Maybe at one point. But there's nothing cheesy about Robin currently.

 

[SuperKoala]

yes there is

 

[namtaB]

Maybe at one point. But there's nothing cheesy about Robin currently.

He has gotten less cheesy. But he's an answer to a question that wasn't really asked and is still a sidekick to the dark force that is Batman. Its kinda like eating the Indian dish Rogan Josh with a scoop of sour cream on the side to deaden the heat and spices. Sure you could serve it with sour cream or yogurt on the side but why mitigate all that flavor and heat?

 

[The Sage]

He has gotten less cheesy. But he's an answer to a question that wasn't really asked and is still a sidekick to the dark force that is Batman. Its kinda like eating the Indian dish Rogan Josh with a scoop of sour cream on the side to deaden the heat and spices. Sure you could serve it with sour cream or yogurt on the side but why mitigate all that flavor and heat?

I don't know, I've never eaten the dish. t:

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea in the comics Robin might be cheesy, but he could be adapted very well to suit Nolans world IMO.

 

[Steelsheen]

just to toss my two bits in: yes to a Dick Grayson cameo, not to Robin anything.

 

[I Am The Knight]

After the death of Rachel, Dick is exactly what Bruce needs right now.

 

[El Payaso]

After the death of Rachel, Dick is exactly what Bruce needs right now.

That sounds so wrong man. I'd say it is Catwoman.

 

[hatebox]

After the death of Rachel, Dick is exactly what Bruce needs right now.

I just can't picture Bale's batman taking on a sidekick. I could only envisage a 40 plus batman doing it. After all, it's meant to portray the fatherly qualitites of Bruce.

EDIT - yup, just got the joke, btw.

 

[El Payaso]

I just can't picture Bale's batman taking on a sidekick. I could only envisage a 40 plus batman doing it. After all, it's meant to portray the fatherly qualitites of Bruce.

The only way Bruce would think of a Robin is when he's thinking of a successor, meaning he'd be older. Think of Batman Beyond.

 

[Bloodwynd]

In Nolan's Bat-universe, Batman has only been around for a year or so, and by the time the third film comes out, it'll be two or three years max. Why in the world would they bring in Robin when Batman himself is still young?

 

[The Sage]

In Nolan's Bat-universe, Batman has only been around for a year or so, and by the time the third film comes out, it'll be two or three years max. Why in the world would they bring in Robin when Batman himself is still young?

Robin enters the story during Batman's the third year of Batman's career.

 

[Bloodwynd]

That's still too early in my book. Robin should enter when Batman has been at it for close to a decade or so, not when Batman himself is barely out of his 20's.

 

[namtaB]

I don't know, I've never eaten the dish. t:

You gotta try it brah. Succulent pieces of lamb cooked in curry and spices. Eat it with some nan bread. DAMN!! I'm getting hungry just thinking about it.