Obama Thread 2.0: Presidential Edition

[The Guard]

So Gates shows his ID. Per police procedure, the officer still has to investigate the situation.

Gates should, as been discussed, probably just been happy his neighbor cared enough to call the police, and that they arrived promptly. He should have asked for assistance if he required it, cooperated, and been done with it.

Instead, he got angry, paranoid, and obviously escalated the situation.

If he threatened, appeared threatening, or even merely insulted the officer, I believe he can be arrested for disorderly conduct. If he was causing a scene, definitely. I don't think the cops arrested Gates for Crowley being called a few names and for his mother being insulted.

Obama is referring to the fact the cop arrested him as stupid, and I'd tend to agree. There was really no need to "teach this man a lesson" simply because he made an ass of himself and caused a scene. He could potentially have been detained, calmed down, and a report written up. I don't think they needed to take him anywhere. I don't think speaking one's mind makes The President "stupid". Could he have chosen his words better? Maybe.

However, somewhat lost on people is this: The second the professor escalated the situation, he was obviously going to make a big deal out of this situation, regardless of whether or not he was arrested. I suspect Crowley may have been protecting his interests, filing a police report with an arrest, etc, so that when, not if, when, Gates blew this up, he had something to defend himself with. Dunno, just curious about that.

When you insult a cops mother, when you follow a cop from your house - you DESERVE to be arrested if, for nothing else, pure and utter stupidity.

Agreed.

And I'm not interested in Gates past dealings with officers or his racial experiences. That doesn't give you the right to be an ******* to someone who's tyring to help. It is Gates who escalated this to begin with, and Gates who made this a national racial issue as well.

I'd be suing the pants off him if I'm Crowley.

 

[Assassin]

I'd be sueing the president who called him out infront of every one in america. and now people are talking about this instead of how stupid his health plan is.

 

[Marx]

I think it's ridiculous that people like Rush Limbaugh are trying to paint this as 'Obama hates the police'.

 

[StorminNorman]

I think it's ridiculous that people like Rush Limbaugh are trying to paint this as 'Obama hates the police'.

Yes, that is ridiculous.

I don't think speaking one's mind makes The President "stupid". Could he have chosen his words better? Maybe.

Politically stupid. If this was a case of the President speaking at anything other than a Press Conference about Health Care, than his gaffe wouldn't have been quite as terrible. The fact is, however, that Obama tried to make a sell about his Health Care plan for America - and no one mentioned it. His comment about race was all. And when you have to SELL a proposal to America, that's the worst thing possible.

 

[DACrowe]

It wasn't a case of simply Gates walking into his house. It was Gates trying to forcing open the door. How someone could miss-see this as someone breaking in is quite understandable.

Well I do wonder how a neighbor could not recognize their neighbor. And again the question is not whether they were wrong to investigate (I am not calling Crowley a racist) the question is whether Gates should have been arrested.

What's not understandable is Gates' reception to the officers, trying to paint them as racist simply by showing up and asking him for ID.

Because he is at his home and being accused of breaking and entering into his own house. He, like anyone would be angered. And given the notorious hisstory of racial descrimination with authorities, which I am SURE that Gates has experienced in his lifetime often, that fueled it.

Was Gates in the wrong for calling Crowley a racist? Probably (I wasn't there). Does that give the police the right to arrest a man on his property for exercising his First Amendment right to criticize the government? Not really. He had the legal right, but it is an abuse of authority of a police officer who could have walked away, but chose to make a scene and arrest a black man for objecting to being arrested in his own home. He was angry and may have said some mean things, but he was hardly deserving the peace if the cop had driven away. And as you can accuse Obama for being stupid in his critique based solely on PR motivations, than Crowley by your logic is the bigger idiot as he did not see the massive national ramifications of arresting a prominent black man based on nothing in the soundbyte age.

Crowley arrested the man for being belligerent, causing a scene and disturbing the peace.

He was arrested for criticizing authority. As I said before, he was arrested in his home for objecting to being arrested in his home. He was wrongfully accused and likely talked down to by the police. He then was angry and followed them to the door calling them names. Instead of brushing it off, the police turn around and arrest him.

Hardly. Crowley acted in the right here, the law is on his side and as an officer of the law he had a responsibility to follow them. I do not understand how you can try to defend Gates actions. He was in the wrong, he was the one guilty of racism, he was the one guilty of causing a scene, he was the one guilty of gross misconduct.

I am not accusing Crowley as a racist. But a phrase I once heard that I really like is when authorities confuse their powers with their rights. Crowley had the legal power to arrest Gates. But that is only if you bend the rules of law that amount to any criticism (right or wrong) upon the police can be considered a crime. I feel that it enters a murky area of right or wrong and I will fall on the side of free speech. You CANNOT ARREST A MAN FOR RACISM. Crowley was personally offended of being called a racist and like many a indignated white man, seemingly labeled Gates a racist. I believe it is more ambiguous than that. In either case, he arrested this man for personal criticism when it was obviously unnecessary and reactionary force.

This boils down to people think Crowley and the police overreacted, as Gates did to them. A man in his own home was arrested for being upset about being accused of robbing it. People can relate to that outrage. Should he have called Crowley a racist? No. Should he have been arrested for speaking his mind? No. Morally not. He was not really disturbing the police. It was an abuse of police authority. That is the outrage.

I don't care if you think Crowley, Gates, or Obama and Matthews for that matter are being racist in this situation.

 

[DACrowe]

This is complete ******** as the Cambridge police never tried to arrest him before he objected. They simply asked for ID, which is typical in this case.

Henry Louis Gates was arrested because of his own foolish, racist, immature actions. If I was Harvard, I would strongly consider evaluating his tenure.

To view the world in such black and white lens is very disconcerting. He was arrested for his objections, not because he didn't have an ID. He was arrested for speaking his mind from his own property and feeling wronged. Was he in the right for his criticisms? No. Should he have been arrested? No. You're defending blind authority always being in the right, because they say they are.

And trust me, I'm sure some insulated self-righteous white man who like Stephen Colbert claims to be "color blind" will make a stink about it at the Harvard establishment if it hasn't happened already.

 

[DACrowe]

-edit-

 

[StorminNorman]

The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Sunday shows that 29% of the nation's voters now Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Forty percent (40%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -11. That’s the first time his ratings have reached double digits in negative territory (see trends).

 

[StorminNorman]

Well I do wonder how a neighbor could not recognize their neighbor. And again the question is not whether they were wrong to investigate (I am not calling Crowley a racist) the question is whether Gates should have been arrested.

I think the whether should Gates have been arrested is actually a two point question.

Whether Gates did enough to warrant arrest is, IMO, a strong yes.

Whether the cop should have seen the national uproar this was going to cause given his skin color and Gates' status and decided it wasn't worth the frustration is another.

I think it could be argued that Crowley was brave in doing not the easy thing, but the proper thing.

Because he is at his home and being accused of breaking and entering into his own house. He, like anyone would be angered. And given the notorious hisstory of racial descrimination with authorities, which I am SURE that Gates has experienced in his lifetime often, that fueled it.

What rational individual would be upset to learn that someone was so worried about protecting his house they went out of their way to call the cops to investigate to ensure his wellbeing?

Was Gates in the wrong for calling Crowley a racist? Probably (I wasn't there). Does that give the police the right to arrest a man on his property for exercising his First Amendment right to criticize the government? Not really. He had the legal right, but it is an abuse of authority of a police officer who could have walked away, but chose to make a scene and arrest a black man for objecting to being arrested in his own home.

Again, you state this flat out lie. This was not a black man objecting to being arrested in his own home, this was a black man refusing to cooperate with the police on a very simple matter. A black man whose first step was not to act rationally, or intelligently - but rather belligerently.

He was angry and may have said some mean things, but he was hardly deserving the peace if the cop had driven away. And as you can accuse Obama for being stupid in his critique based solely on PR motivations, than Crowley by your logic is the bigger idiot as he did not see the massive national ramifications of arresting a prominent black man based on nothing in the soundbyte age.

The difference is that Crowley is a police officer not trying to sell a massive legislative program. Had Obama made the "acted stupidly" comment at a news conference, it would have still been personally regrettable as it would have caused further media attention - but it would not be quite as politically devastating.

[quote[He was arrested for criticizing authority. As I said before, he was arrested in his home for objecting to being arrested in his home.[/quote]

Again, which is incorrect.

He was wrongfully accused and likely talked down to by the police. He then was angry and followed them to the door calling them names. Instead of brushing it off, the police turn around and arrest him.

He wasn't wrongfully accused of anything. Gates was resistant to cooperate with the police in anyway, even before he learned why the were called.

To view the world in such black and white lens is very disconcerting. He was arrested for his objections, not because he didn't have an ID. He was arrested for speaking his mind from his own property and feeling wronged. Was he in the right for his criticisms? No. Should he have been arrested? No. You're defending blind authority always being in the right, because they say they are.

I am not defending authority as always being in the right - not by a long shot. But in this case, from everything I have read, Gates was clearly in the wrong.

And trust me, I'm sure some insulated self-righteous white man who like Stephen Colbert claims to be "color blind" will make a stink about it at the Harvard establishment if it hasn't happened already.

I hope so. Gates actions were beneath the university. Gates exposed himself as a racist fool.

 

[Varient]

Except the white guy didn't make a mistake. The black guy did. But your own bigotry won't let you see that.

.

I like how you miss the obvious to make your points Norman.

Let me spell it out instead of taking the bait of your accusing me of being bigoted:

I have no patience with people who see nothing wrong with different penalties for the same actions.

My time in this country is filled with either experiencing or seeing the police deal with blacks on a harsher gradient than whites for the same stuff.

In this case,... I can't recall a white ANYBODY being arrested on his porch for being verbally abusive to a police officer.

I CAN remember COUNTLESS CASES where whites have yelled, cursed, and thrown stuff at police on their property and the police JUST LEFT.

Continue to live in ignorance Norman.

V.

 

[Marx]

Let's stick to the topic guys. There's no need for the personal stuff.

 

[Varient]

If the cops were called due to your mom and dad arguing - it's very possible one or both of them would be.

This is true and underlines my point.

When my wife was still here she was on a med set that would make mother theresa into a ***** in an attempt to prevent organ rejection.

When the police arrived, even though they walked up to a quiet house they told us flat out that ONE OF US WAS GOING TO JAIL.

I tried to explain the situation but the police didn't want to hear it - as far as they were concerned this was just another domestic situation that needed difusing.

WHAT? I'm going to let my wife - who was two steps from being readmitted into the hospital for liver rejection be put into a jail cell on a friday night?

I let myself be handcuffed and was put in a holding cell over the weekend. My job had a Fit and my officer in charge was all about WTF.
(Nothing in my profile or years in the military even hinted that I would cause anykind of disturbance to get arrested.)

I was released @ 9am monday w/o a word from law enforcement.

I feel to this day that a white couple in the same situation would NOT have had to choose which one would go to jail.

V.

 

[Addendum]

And a person has a right to be belligerent in their own home. What Gates was saying is purely political speech. Alleging racial bias on the police is political speech, and protected by the first amendment. That's like Ann Coulter being arrested for what it says about liberals, or Keith Olbermann being arrested for what he said about Bush and Cheney.

 

[StorminNorman]

I like how you miss the obvious to make your points Norman.

Let me spell it out instead of taking the bait of your accusing me of being bigoted:

I have no patience with people who see nothing wrong with different penalties for the same actions.

My time in this country is filled with either experiencing or seeing the police deal with blacks on a harsher gradient than whites for the same stuff.

In this case,... I can't recall a white ANYBODY being arrested on his porch for being verbally abusive to a police officer.

Yes! You are right! It has never happened! Ever!

I CAN remember COUNTLESS CASES where whites have yelled, cursed, and thrown stuff at police on their property and the police JUST LEFT.

You are absolutely right! COUNTLESS CASES! Cops never just leave when black guys start yelling at them and always leave when white guys do! Absolutely!

 

[StorminNorman]

This is true and underlines my point.

When my wife was still here she was on a med set that would make mother theresa into a ***** in an attempt to prevent organ rejection.

When the police arrived, even though they walked up to a quiet house they told us flat out that ONE OF US WAS GOING TO JAIL.

I tried to explain the situation but the police didn't want to hear it - as far as they were concerned this was just another domestic situation that needed difusing.

WHAT? I'm going to let my wife - who was two steps from being readmitted into the hospital for liver rejection be put into a jail cell on a friday night?

I let myself be handcuffed and was put in a holding cell over the weekend. My job had a Fit and my officer in charge was all about WTF.
(Nothing in my profile or years in the military even hinted that I would cause anykind of disturbance to get arrested.)

I was released @ 9am monday w/o a word from law enforcement.

I feel to this day that a white couple in the same situation would NOT have had to choose which one would go to jail.

V.

Good god, you are telling me that some police, some where, isn't the best example of law enforcement? I am shocked!

Are police perfect? No. Are police, of all races, prejudice against others? Yes. Is it a problem exclusive to white cops? Absolutely not. Is race always a factor when a white cop acts against a black guy? Absolutely not.

Trying to imply that race had anything to do with the cops action here is ridiculous. There simply is not any evidence supporting the claim, outside of own personal biases (justified or not by own experience) such as the ones carried by Gates and tons of evidence supporting the cops record on race relations.

Instead of handling this civilly, as a rational person would, Gates who, like you, likes to beat the war drums of race, escalated the problem; this caused a scene, and Gates was relentless in his persecution of the police.

 

[Addendum]

The scene was already there while Gates was yelling in his kitchen, which one can do in their home.

No one has proven that there is a history of Gates' house being unruly.

 

[Varient]

And a person has a right to be belligerent in their own home. What Gates was saying is purely political speech. Alleging racial bias on the police is political speech, and protected by the first amendment. That's like Ann Coulter being arrested for what it says about liberals, or Keith Olbermann being arrested for what he said about Bush and Cheney.

no one will hear you on this.

 

[Varient]

Yes! You are right! It has never happened! Ever!



You are absolutely right! COUNTLESS CASES! Cops never just leave when black guys start yelling at them and always leave when white guys do! Absolutely!

Note:
On this board,.. on this thread,.. when I have waxed as insulting as you just have in regards to your sarcastic response to my post,.. I have had a number of moderators tell me to back off or else.

You enjoy the right here to be insulting with a sarcastic bite and I can't be bothered to respond in kind just to hear the resulting whine.

Please yourself.

V.

 

[Marx]

I would strongly encrouage everyone to lose the attitudes.

LAST WARNING.

 

[Matt]

Sooo, how about President Obama and not some cop that he simply commented on?

Here's an interesting article, not saying I agree 100 %, but a good read anyhow.

Who's The Narcissist?
by Jack Kelly

IN HIS hit piece on Sarah Palin for Vanity Fair, Todd Purdum wrote: "More than once in my travels in Alaska, people brought up, without prompting, the question of Palin's extravagant self regard. Several told me, independently of one another, that they had consulted the definition of 'narcissistic personality disorder' in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - 'a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration and lack of empathy' - and thought it fit her perfectly."

The DSM IV lists for $49.95 at Barnes & Noble and weighs a ton - not the sort of book the typical Alaskan would have in his back pocket. Bill Clinton last year described Mr. Purdum as a "sleazy, slimy scumbag," despite the fact that Mr. Purdum is married to his former press secretary, Dee Dee Myers. And I suspect the anonymous Alaskans are a product of Mr. Purdum's imagination. But because he has Gone There, I now feel free to write something I've thought about a lot, but have hesitated to put into print.

A person who wrote two autobiographies before he was 45 is no piker when it comes to extravagant self regard.

Virtually all politicians exhibit some narcissistic traits. But columnist Charles Krauthammer, a psychiatrist, asked last year: "has there ever been a presidential nominee with a wider gap between his estimation of himself and the sum total of his achievements?"

"Barack Obama appears to be a narcissist," wrote Shmuel (Sam) Vaknin, a psychologist who's written two books on narcissism, in July of 2008. "Narcissistic leaders are nefarious and their effects pernicious. They are subtle, refined, socially adept, manipulative, possessed of thespian skills, and convincing. (They) lack empathy and are ruthless and relentless."

Only after lengthy tests and personal interviews can a qualified mental-health professional determine whether someone suffers from narcissistic personality disorder, Mr. Vaknin acknowledged. But for his article in the American Chronicle, Mr. Vaknin constructed the kind of psychological profile the CIA commissions on foreign leaders.
If Barack Obama is a narcissist, it's not his fault. "Pathological narcissism is a reaction to prolonged abuse and trauma in early childhood or early adolescence," Dr. Vaknin wrote.


Barack Obama's father deserted him at age two. He was a product of a racially mixed marriage, which can be stressful even when the marriage is stable. His mother carted him off to Indonesia (another culture) at an early age, and then divorced his stepfather. She shipped him off at age 10 to live with his grandparents in Hawaii.

"Narcissism is a defense mechanism whose role is to deflect hurt and trauma from the victim's 'True Self' into a 'False Self' which is omnipotent, invulnerable and omniscient," Dr. Vaknin wrote.

Among the narcissistic traits Dr. Vaknin observed in Mr. Obama are he:

•subtly misrepresents facts and expediently and opportunistically shifts positions;

•ignores data that conflict with his fantasy world;

•eels that he is above the law;

•craves to be the exclusive center of attention, and

•has a messianic-cosmic vision of himself.

If Mr. Obama is a narcissist, it would explain otherwise odd things, such as his notion that an iPod loaded with his speeches is an appropriate gift for the Queen of England and his frequent references to himself in virtually all of those speeches.

President Obama is constantly in campaign mode which, Dr. Vaknin said, is another sign of narcissism: "The narcissistic leader prefers the sparkle and glamor of well-orchestrated illusions to the tedium and method of real accomplishments."

Mr. Obama is experiencing the first rough patch of his presidency. After six months, his job approval rating is 10th among the 12 post-World War II presidents, according to Gallup.

President Obama's signature issues are foundering even in a heavily Democratic Congress, as moderate lawmakers fret about their cost. Mr. Obama has responded by lashing out at critics rather than by seeking compromise.

Narcissists overreact to criticism and can quickly fall into a rage if their plans are frustrated, Dr. Vaknin said.

So what happens if the cheering stops?

"Narcissistic injury inevitably leads to narcissistic rage and to a terrifying display of unbridled aggression," Dr. Vaknin said.

Jack Kelly is a columnist for The Blade and the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.

Contact him at: [email protected]

 

[The Guard]

I feel to this day that a white couple in the same situation would NOT have had to choose which one would go to jail.

That sounds like standard police procedure. If the police are called out for domestic violence/disturbance, they are obligated to arrest someone. Doesn't matter what race you are. It happens. Constantly.

 

[terry78]

People like to throw around the term narcissm and confuse it with being proud of your achivements. Like my grandaddy said, if you don't pat yourself on the back, no one else will.

 

[Paradoxium]

There is an actual difference between narcissism and NPD as far as medical terms go. The latter being more serious.

 

[Varient]

I would strongly encrouage everyone to lose the attitudes.

LAST WARNING.

I've been done.

On topic:

With no heat intended,
Anyone who see's themself in the next statement - get a grip.


Isn't it just a little delusional to really expect MASSIVE change in the status quo from one person who has people dragging their heels and getting in the way and picking apart everything from what he looks at to what he likes on his burger - with less than a year in office?

Isn't not quite as bad but still up there to expect him to do WHATEVER he's trying to do exactly the way that would be required to give you the warm and fuzzies? I'm saying he says he's trying to do whatever - and we have people saying "that's not how I would do it?" What's wrong with that picture?

Serious Questions coming from someone who when watching someone do something that is their responsibility - Has a "wait and See" attitude because he learned a long time ago that people are different.

Ref the above: If things WERE headed toward the toilet, and NOTHING TRIED IN THE LAST 12 YEARS did any good,... and his immediate actions DID have an impact,.... why the heck must we impede what he is doing now and what horrible thing will happen if we don't "stop Obama?"

Because if there is no real answer - People need to step and let the guy do his job w/o interference.

I'd also like to give him a pass on having to answer off topic Questions - There are those in the media that toss a hissy fit if he doesn't address whatever they think of regardless of what he is talking about - why we tolerate these questions and then try to hang the guy for anything he says is stupid.

V.

 

[Varient]

That sounds like standard police procedure. If the police are called out for domestic violence/disturbance, they are obligated to arrest someone. Doesn't matter what race you are. It happens. Constantly.

In LA,...
(California)
It's not the Law,... it's a policy.
The policy requires arrest if someone is hurt in the dust up and THIS is at the discretion of the officers on scene.

If my wife had injury (she didn't) They can opt to lock ME up. It wasn't done. I explained the situation, and I was told that one of us was going - period.