Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - - Part 16

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(Spoiler tags for length).

Going back to an earlier discussion for a moment.

If Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens were committed to telling a faithful adaptation of The Hobbit, both literally and spiritually, then the Necromancer subplot is wholly unnecessary. And I say that as someone who loves Gandalf.

The Hobbit is Bilbo's story. The narrative is structured around this tiny, seemingly insignificant person being swept up from the comfort of his ordinary life and into journeys both physical and emotional. That's ultimately what helps The Hobbit achieve its sense of wonder and adventure. We, the readers, are witnessing these fantastic events through the eyes of a character who also is experiencing and seeing these things for the first time.

You don't need to worry about developing each and every dwarf when you frame the story around Bilbo. We should see the dwarves the same way that Bilbo does. At first, a loud, overwhelming group where you struggle to remember who's who. Further driving home that initial feeling in the narrative that Bilbo is in way over his head, out of his elements, and flatly the odd man out. It makes you uncomfortable.

And when Bilbo later assumes more command and authority within the group, again, the dwarves themselves aren't the focus (especially on an individual level). It's the fact that this little hobbit, initially overwhelmed by everything, has the respect and attention of this large group. Following the fight with the spiders, these thirteen dwarves, as a collective, are immediatey looking to him for suggestions and guidance. That's what's important. And the main dwarf characters that do get more to do in the book (Thorin, Balin, Gloin) are developed through their specific interactions and relationships with Bilbo.

Now, enter Gandalf.

You can call it whatever you want. The "mentor," the "guide," the "safety net," the "plot device." That is Gandalf's purpose in the book. And just as with anything else in the book, we see Gandalf from Bilbo's point-of-view. We see this mysterious wizard who comes and goes as he pleases. We see a character who has other businesses and workings in Middle-earth that we aren't privy, because we aren't intended to be. They are bigger than Bilbo, they are bigger than the dwarves, they are bigger than the quest, they are bigger than us. And all the while you have Bilbo and the dwarves asking (repetitively):

"Where's Gandalf?"
"How could he possibly leave us like this?"

We as readers are asking these questions too. And that's what makes Gandalf that much more compelling. Frankly, Gandalf is the most wizard-y in The Hobbit, in part because of the mysterious nature of his role and now he steps out of the narrative without an explanation besides "I have other matters to attend to." You show what Gandalf is off doing, and you lose that mysterious, almost omnipotent quality. In a weird way, taking the time to break away from the main narrative to show what he's up to almost normalizes him. And again, it detracts from Bilbo's story.

Then, of course, there is the simple fact that not once does the Necromancer or Dol Guldur or The White Council come up in LotR. Not a single mention. There is no necessity for it in the cinematic narrative. And really, when you've got Gandalf and the White Council combatting Sauron and the Ring Wraiths (the main antagonists of the following trilogy) and basically making a play that could have an impact on the bigger-picture of Middle-earth as a whole, how is Bilbo's glorified treasure hunt with thirteen dwarves supposed to compete with that. In my opinion, all Gandalf's subplot accomplishes is upstaging and undermining the main narrative.

Excellent post, and I agree both in general and in detail.

For me, this brings us back to the argument for a compact adaptation of the The Hobbit to be followed by a bridging film extrapolated from the Appendices. There is no difficulty with Gandalf taking centre stage there.
 
I remember a reviewer or someone saying what Thranduil wants from Erebor is a necklace. The necklace is somehow connected to his wife.

Yes, the necklace is brought up (but never resolved), and his wife is only mentioned once or twice as far as I can remember.

He says

[blackout]Legolas, your mother loved you. More than life.[/blackout]
 
Yes, the necklace is brought up (but never resolved), and his wife is only mentioned once or twice as far as I can remember.

He says

[blackout]Legolas, your mother loved you. More than life.[/blackout]

Originally Tolkien was delighted at the prospect of his novel being made into a successful film trilogy. But when he learned of CGI Dain and Necromancer subplot he rolled away in disgust.
 
Originally Tolkien was delighted at the prospect of his novel being made into a successful film trilogy. But when he learned of CGI Dain and Necromancer subplot he rolled away in disgust.

Well played, my friend. Well played.
 
anyone have this in a Hi Res?
YaYh2ce.jpg

Here's google search results
 
can't get Google to o higher than 1200! Thanks Silver!!
 
Someone mentioned here awhile back on how PJ said that it would be revealed in BOFA on how one of the reasons why Legolas's dad is so uptight is because of the fact that he lost his wife.

Was this ever brought up in the theatrical cut of BOFA?

Orcs killed Legolas' wife and i think Thorin had this neck jewelry that might have had something to do with her, that's the reason Thranduil is willing to wage war, he wants this necklace. :b

Which reminds me, the Arkenstone in the theatrical cut still stays with Bard, since there's no scene where he gives it to anyone lol.
 
So basically they got jacked.
 
Orcs killed Legolas' wife and i think Thorin had this neck jewelry that might have had something to do with her, that's the reason Thranduil is willing to wage war, he wants this necklace. :b

Which reminds me, the Arkenstone in the theatrical cut still stays with Bard, since there's no scene where he gives it to anyone lol.
...how does Bard get the Arkenstone?
 
He's a lot better in the books...

Not at all. It takes him years to begin to suspect that the Bilbo's ring is Sauron's and then he spends several years afterwards to confirm it. And of course his entire purpose in ME is to help defeat Sauron and he has been at it for nearly two millennium.
 
...how does Bard get the Arkenstone?

[blackout]Bilbo grabs it in the second movie and hides it from Thorin in the third movie. He escapes the mountain and gives it to Bard[/blackout]
 
Not at all. It takes him years to begin to suspect that the Bilbo's ring is Sauron's and then he spends several years afterwards to confirm it. And of course his entire purpose in ME is to help defeat Sauron and he has been at it for nearly two millennium.

Gandalf alone first began to suspect there was something malign about the Ring, he undertook all the research needed to uncover Isildur's journal and to draw the link between Isildur's Bane, the river Anduin, and the pre-historic settlements down its stream. He then linked these to "Smeagol" and the creature Gollum, before tracing Gollum's movements to Mordor, having him captured, and questioning him in order to confirm that Sauron was hot on the same trial.

Basically, Gandalf's deductions form the plot of the whole mythology. If you're saying that, despite all that, he was stupid, you may as well say that HG Wells' time traveler was stupid because his time machine didn't work quite as he intended.

As for the second point: Sauron was an infinitely more powerful being that Gandalf, who was locked up in the body of a mortal man. Gandalf was only ever able or intended to assist in the struggle against Sauron, and even then he was supposed to work in concert with four other wizards, two of whom disappeared, one of whom was corrupted, and the last of which became a hippie. Sauron was only able to be defeated in such comprehensive fashion because he unwittingly devised his own undoing when plotting a power grab by the mechanics of the Ring. Gandalf discovered the opportunity, and brought it to its conclusion. He could hardly have done more.
 
Just so I've got this straight:

Spoilers:

We don't see Thorin laid to rest with the Arkenstone and Orcrist
We don't see Dain named King.
We don't see Bard named King.
We don't see Beorn kill Bolg.
We don't see Bilbo share a thoughtful goodbye with the dwarves (characters we've been following for three films).

And this is all for the sake of what?
 
And this is all for the sake of what?

The Extended Edition & then the Extended Edition 2.0 with 3D with even more scenes & then the 4k Extended Edition 3.0 with even a lot more scenes
 
I'm going to need a depressant to watch this thing.
 
Just so I've got this straight:

Spoilers:

We don't see Thorin laid to rest with the Arkenstone and Orcrist
We don't see Dain named King.
We don't see Bard named King.
We don't see Beorn kill Bolg.
We don't see Bilbo share a thoughtful goodbye with the dwarves (characters we've been following for three films).

And this is all for the sake of what?

Your first three points are correct.
The fourth point: [blackout]we see a lengthy fight between Legolas and Bolg. Legolas eventually kills Bolg[/blackout]
The fifth point: [blackout]there is a goodbye at the gate of the mountain with all of the dwarves.[/blackout]
 
Your first three points are correct.
The fourth point: [blackout]we see a lengthy fight between Legolas and Bolg. Legolas eventually kills Bolg[/blackout]
The fifth point: [blackout]there is a goodbye at the gate of the mountain with all of the dwarves.[/blackout]
Jesus Christ.
 
Be sure to buy that extended cut in 2015 kiddies. :awesome:




:csad:
 
Clearly, PJ et al believe that the "spirit of Tolkien" is a sharp pang of aggravated disappointment, dulling into incomprehension.
 
It's well within the spirit of Tolkien to take a key scene for one of the book's most iconic characters and give it to a character that doesn't get so much as a name-drop in the text.
 
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Snippets from the Review by Sheila O'Malley (over at ye olde Roger Ebert site):
"There's not enough Bilbo in 'The Battle of the Five Armies.' The story misses his presence. The film's first mildly humorous moment, a line reading from Martin Freeman, comes almost 40 minutes in, and it's refreshing, but it highlights the humorlessness of the rest."

[. . .]

"Christopher Lee and Cate Blanchett return, briefly, for a psychedelic scene of mortal combat with the ring wraiths that doesn't seem to have much to do with anything (although it is clearly supposed to be important)."

[. . .]

"That magic something is missing in 'Battle.' There are glimpses of it, glimpses of true poignancy and emotion: the friendship between Thorin and Bilbo, Bilbo turning back to look at the row of dwarves standing in the doorway, the last conversation with Gandalf, and the final moment of the film. These moments are lovely; these moments are presented concisely, strongly and openly. There, there is the story."
 
Those snippets are very accurate.
 
Gandalf alone first began to suspect there was something malign about the Ring, he undertook all the research needed to uncover Isildur's journal and to draw the link between Isildur's Bane, the river Anduin, and the pre-historic settlements down its stream. He then linked these to "Smeagol" and the creature Gollum, before tracing Gollum's movements to Mordor, having him captured, and questioning him in order to confirm that Sauron was hot on the same trial.

Basically, Gandalf's deductions form the plot of the whole mythology. If you're saying that, despite all that, he was stupid, you may as well say that HG Wells' time traveler was stupid because his time machine didn't work quite as he intended.

A false equivalency if ever there was one. Sure, it's something you just have to roll with it, but that doesn't change the fact that it reeks of idiocy. Now if Gandalf was just a wizard I could see him overlooking Bilbo's ring, but when this is pretty much his entire purpose for being in ME, one would expect Gandalf to express more curiosity in the ring even though ring-lore is not his speciality.

As for the second point: Sauron was an infinitely more powerful being that Gandalf, who was locked up in the body of a mortal man. Gandalf was only ever able or intended to assist in the struggle against Sauron, and even then he was supposed to work in concert with four other wizards, two of whom disappeared, one of whom was corrupted, and the last of which became a hippie. Sauron was only able to be defeated in such comprehensive fashion because he unwittingly devised his own undoing when plotting a power grab by the mechanics of the Ring. Gandalf discovered the opportunity, and brought it to its conclusion. He could hardly have done more.

And if you notice I specifically mentioned he was sent "to help". Nor am I questioning his contributions which were enormous.
 
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Gandalf only began to grow concerned when he noticed a change come over Bilbo. Otherwise, it was simply a magic ring that turned the user invisible. There is a precedent for such devices in the Middle-earth canon.
 
Now if Gandalf was just a wizard I could see him overlooking Bilbo's ring, but when this is pretty much his entire purpose for being in ME..

Was Gandalf's "purpose" to find the One Ring, then?
 
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