Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 17

[Marvolo]

The drawings of the "battle" of Dol Guldor show only the White Council going. Besides an armed assault would be pointless and a risk of lives. Dol Guldor is a fortress which means the interior it isnt an ideal place for cavalry, formations, or legions. And even if an army of elves go inside whats the point? They cant hack sauron to death with their oretty little blades. The white council going alone is the only logical way that thing could have went down. The execution of the thing was shoddy imo but not because Jackson didnt have an army siege Dol Guldor.

 

[InCali]

An interesting thought. I confess that I had always considered it to be a largely magical battle, as Sauron's presence in Mirkwood seemed to manifest in a general spidery malaise as opposed to legions of Orcs. The appendices of LOTR certainly say that Galadriel threw down the walls. PJ's mistake to my mind is to confine it all to a melee against respawning Nazgul.



They are inevitably similar because they are adapted from the same book, but the radio adaptation uses its length better to build tension, scale and depth. Gandalf's fireside lesson to Frodo, the Council of Elrond, and the dark trudge through Moria are far better, to my mind.

And I love Robert Stevens as Aragorn. Slight lisp or not, his tired, chesty, yet aristocratic voice seems perfect for the role to me, and the bit in the Prancing Pony where he changes his accent from Breelander to Numenorean is one of my favourites.

Gimli is also miles better.

And the Nazgul's shriek.

And Frodo and Sam.

And Michael Horden has the most wizardy voice of all time.

Never listened to it, but might do so some time. With regard to Dol Guldur, it really is one place where PJ could have used interpretation (as opposed to sending Legolas off to meet Aragorn or having "Tauriel" fall in love with Kili or Fili or whatever....).

I always thought of it as a little bit of both armed and magical (though I never thought too, too much about why). I envisioned the White Council (led by the devices of Saruman...ie magical) to have led a select group of warriors mainly from Rivendell (with the Elladan, Elrohir, and Glorfindel among them??) and a lesser number from Lorien against Dol Guldur. Surely Sauron had many servants there (I would think including Orcs) and I guessed there would be some hand to hand fighting.

I'm pretty sure the Tower remained standing after the assault by the White Council and was staffed (after Sauron was driven out.....partially of his own design) by (I think) the Lieutenant of Barad dur (was this The Mouth of Sauron or was this a title?) and (later??) Khamul. It wasn't until the War of the Ring and after Lothlorien was repeatedly (unsuccessfully) attacked that Galadriel rose against Dol Guldur. This time, she threw down the walls and cleansed the forest. This was certainly an armed assault (too bad she lost so many of her archers in the battle of Helm's Deep.....she could have used them ). My interpretation of throwing down the walls might mean she had them thrown down (probably using her own powers to assist..... maybe breaking the spells that helped hold the walls together??) and cleansing the forest could have involved her elves driving out and killing the beings that inhabited the land (Making Thranduil a big fan of hers if he wasn't already).

My 2 bits.....

 

[InCali]

The drawings of the "battle" of Dol Guldor show only the White Council going. Besides an armed assault would be pointless and a risk of lives. Dol Guldor is a fortress which means the interior it isnt an ideal place for cavalry, formations, or legions. And even if an army of elves go inside whats the point? They cant hack sauron to death with their oretty little blades. The white council going alone is the only logical way that thing could have went down. The execution of the thing was shoddy imo but not because Jackson didnt have an army siege Dol Guldor.

And THAT is why the attack on Dol Guldur is a place where Jackson really could have used interpretation (and, to be fair, did). What was kind of stupid was Galadriel materializing and de-materializing to and from wherever. I agree it could have been done better, but his "sins" there pale in comparison of some of the abortions in his storyline of The Hobbit.

 

[InCali]

The drawings of the "battle" of Dol Guldor show only the White Council going. Besides an armed assault would be pointless and a risk of lives. Dol Guldor is a fortress which means the interior it isnt an ideal place for cavalry, formations, or legions. And even if an army of elves go inside whats the point? They cant hack sauron to death with their oretty little blades. The white council going alone is the only logical way that thing could have went down. The execution of the thing was shoddy imo but not because Jackson didnt have an army siege Dol Guldor.

I haven't seen these drawings. Did Tolkien do them? I've seen quite a few of his drawings, but not these. Where are they?

EDIT: An attack on Dol Guldur of any sort is risking life whether it's an armed assault or not. Sauron "could" be defeated by blades (which in fact happened at the end of the Second Age), but I think it's pretty clear that the idea was to find out "if" the Necromancer was Sauron and drive him from Mirkwood. Saruman, however, likely already knew who was there and just wanted him driven out so he wouldn't find the ring. It fits with Gandalf saying that Sauron was driven out mainly by the devices of Saruman. I still lean towards a mixed assault as there were probably all kinds (and a lot) of creatures in and around the stronghold. A complete list of who was part of the White Council (Counsel of the Wise) was never, to my knowledge, specifically stated. It may have been larger than we think, but I don't think numerous or powerful enough to overcome a strong force of orcs, trolls, possibly some of the Nazgul, etc. "if" they inhabited Dol Guldur. The Counsel, in any case, didn't know for sure what to expect and I think it would have been prudent to bring a strong force with them.

 

[DKDetective]

The drawings of the "battle" of Dol Guldor show only the White Council going. Besides an armed assault would be pointless and a risk of lives. Dol Guldor is a fortress which means the interior it isnt an ideal place for cavalry, formations, or legions. And even if an army of elves go inside whats the point? They cant hack sauron to death with their oretty little blades. The white council going alone is the only logical way that thing could have went down. The execution of the thing was shoddy imo but not because Jackson didnt have an army siege Dol Guldor.

No, the White Council going by themselves and attacking Sauron directly in a battle of sorcery is not supported by Tolkien's writings at all. First off, the illustrations of Alan Lee and John Howe, as awesome as they look, often play loose and fast with the text. Second, the White Council was reticent of an attack against Sauron in Dol Guldur because the strength of the Eldar and the Elf-friends had diminished greatly since the War of the Last Alliance and they were fearful of another similar armed conflict. Third, in the Rings of Power and the Third Age, Tolkien describes the "might" of the White Council being brought against Sauron at Dol Guldur. Tolkien tends to use "might" to refer to strength of arms and armed conflict. Fourth, directly challenging Sauron in a battle of magical power is exactly what the Istari were forbidden from doing and why they were sent to Middle-Earth in the bodies of aged, mortal men. The fear was that they would become power hungry and corrupted like Sauron himself. Their job was to inspire and lead others to action against the darkness. Likewise, Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf were charged with keeping the Three secret and safe from Sauron. It would make little sense for them to pull them out and fight Sauron directly with them in a battle of sorcery. I think the more natural interpretation was that the White Council led an armed force of Eldar and their allies from Imladris and Lorien against Dol Guldur.

 

[InCali]

No, the White Council going by themselves and attacking Sauron directly in a battle of sorcery is not supported by Tolkien's writings at all. First off, the illustrations of Alan Lee and John Howe, as awesome as they look, often play loose and fast with the text. Second, the White Council was reticent of an attack against Sauron in Dol Guldur because the strength of the Eldar and the Elf-friends had diminished greatly since the War of the Last Alliance and they were fearful of another similar armed conflict. Third, in the Rings of Power and the Third Age, Tolkien describes the "might" of the White Council being brought against Sauron at Dol Guldur. Tolkien tends to use "might" to refer to strength of arms and armed conflict. Fourth, directly challenging Sauron in a battle of magical power is exactly what the Istari were forbidden from doing and why they were sent to Middle-Earth in the bodies of aged, mortal men. The fear was that they would become power hungry and corrupted like Sauron himself. Their job was to inspire and lead others to action against the darkness. Likewise, Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf were charged with keeping the Three secret and safe from Sauron. It would make little sense for them to pull them out and fight Sauron directly with them in a battle of sorcery. I think the more natural interpretation was that the White Council led an armed force of Eldar and their allies from Imladris and Lorien against Dol Guldur.

That's sort of how I see it also. Saruman, in particular, did "something" to help drive Sauron from Dol Guldur (by his devices). It may have been a plan of attack or, possibly, something he "cooked up in Orthanc". (I think that one deserves a smile). I don't think it was ever explicitly stated, but, you're right, The Wizards were not to confront Sauron with might.



EDIT: When I said it wasn't explicitly stated, I meant Saruman's devices weren't explicitly stated. The fact that The Wizards were forbidden to confront Sauron with force isn't in dispute.



Just for the info of others (DK already knows this), the Ring Nenya was given to Galadriel by Celebrimbor (grandson of Feanor and Son of Curufin) and Narya and Vilya were given to Gil-Galad. Gil-Galad entrusted Narya to his Lieutenant Cirdan, who, in turn, gave it to Gandalf as Cirdan sensed Gandalf was the wisest and was ultimately the greatest of the Istari. Narya may have been given directly to Cirdan by Celebrimbor. There's some uncertainty there. What is clear is that the rings were meant for preservation and not war.

Saruman found out about Gandalf possessing Narya and begrudged the fact that it was given to him.

 

[regwec]

Fine posting, gentleman.

I wonder who might have formed the assault force, then? Do we have an exhaustive list of the members of the White Council? If not, other "names" like Glorfindel might have been involved. Thranduil or his people are likely participants, as is Celeborn, both of whom would later clean up Mirkwood. His failure to ever mention it probably means that Aragorn was not there, though his links to Gandalf, Lothlorien, and Rivendell makes this surprising. Perhaps other Rangers were there?

Sadly, it is probably too much to imagine a company of sturdy Hobbit archers amongst the vanguard.

 

[InCali]

Fine posting, gentleman.

I wonder who might have formed the assault force, then? Do we have an exhaustive list of the members of the White Council? If not, other "names" like Glorfindel might have been involved. Thranduil or his people are likely participants, as is Celeborn, both of whom would later clean up Mirkwood. His failure to ever mention it probably means that Aragorn was not there, though his links to Gandalf, Lothlorien, and Rivendell makes this surprising. Perhaps other Rangers were there?

Sadly, it is probably too much to imagine a company of sturdy Hobbit archers amongst the vanguard.

What makes the most sense to me is that Saruman played "the" major role in the assault of Dol Guldur. Hence Gandalf's statement about the importance of Saruman's "devices". In my mind, I could see Saruman defying the intent of the Valar and using some level of might/magic directly against Sauron as he clearly had started to turn. My take is that Saruman had already been crossing the black and white lines (with shades of grey) laid out to him and the other wizards by the Valar (and maybe similar to “Saruman of many colors” whose robes appeared to be white upon first glance???). This is, of course, all conjecture, but it’s conjecture from a part of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings that wasn’t clearly defined in the book.

So here’s what I’ll go out on a limb and wonder about since this part of the history isn’t defined. Ever think about the Palantir and the role it may have played in the assault of Dol Guldur? It makes sense that Saruman already had it and used it for quite some time. We’re sure he had already started down the wrong path. It makes sense that he may have thought he was reading the purposes of Sauron. AND, it makes sense that Sauron knew he was being watched. Might that not have been the reason Sauron “fled” Dol Guldur and returned to Mordor? If Saruman had unwittingly given Sauron access to the plans of the White Council (and I think it clear that, at that point, Saruman wasn’t under the thumb of Sauron), it would have made the assault of Dol Guldur seem like a victory, but, in reality, a clever feint by Sauron. It was only when Saruman was unmasked and didn’t have access to the plans of The Council of Elrond (and in a more extreme measure when Aragorn ripped away control of the Palantir) that Sauron didn’t know what was coming and acted rashly. Ultimately, this led to his defeat.

I think Gandalf’s words to Pippin after the Palantir was recovered in “The Two Towers” fits with all of the above. He said something to the effect of “How far back his treason goes, who knows? A spider in a steel trap. A hawk in the eagle’s claw.” Saruman wasn’t always evil, but when he forsook the tasks put before him, his demise was inevitable.

The battle at Dol Guldur, if detailed similarly to the above, could have, in my opinion, fit the spirit of the book and offered an interesting “interpretation” of it.

In other words, bring in more about the role of the Palantir and Saruman and less about the Lake Town and their petty hagglings. Bard played a small part in the book, but it was a noble and important one. We didn’t need to have a bird’s eye view of his toilet.

I’ll take my interpretation over PJ’s, but, who knows, maybe mine wouldn’t have sold.

 

[InCali]

Just for the info of others (DK already knows this), the Ring Nenya was given to Galadriel by Celebrimbor (grandson of Feanor and Son of Curufin) and Narya and Vilya were given to Gil-Galad. Gil-Galad entrusted Narya to his Lieutenant Cirdan, who, in turn, gave it to Gandalf as Cirdan sensed Gandalf was the wisest and was ultimately the greatest of the Istari. Narya may have been given directly to Cirdan by Celebrimbor. There's some uncertainty there. What is clear is that the rings were meant for preservation and not war.

Saruman found out about Gandalf possessing Narya and begrudged the fact that it was given to him.

Man, should I be a writer for a Soap or what??? t:

 

[AnneFan]

The Hobbit: *The Battle of Watching Five Hundred Extra Hours of Extended Editions for Already Bloated Movies.

*Say this really quickly.

 

[InCali]

The Hobbit: *The Battle of Watching Five Hundred Extra Hours of Extended Editions for Already Bloated Movies.

*Say this really quickly.

The bottle of swilling 5 VsoP XO bloated mornings

Done.....No problem...

 

[regwec]

Interestingly, the Tale of Years says that Saruman inhabited Isengard many years before the attack on Dol Guldur, but fortified it a short time afterwards. This raises the question of at which point he first acquired his military force. The Orcs and Half Orcs clearly came much later, but his Rohirric or Dunlending guards may have been at his disposal at the time.

 

[InCali]

Interestingly, the Tale of Years says that Saruman inhabited Isengard many years before the attack on Dol Guldur, but fortified it a short time afterwards. This raises the question of at which point he first acquired his military force. The Orcs and Half Orcs clearly came much later, but his Rohirric or Dunlending guards may have been at his disposal at the time.

Hmmmmm.....never really thought of that. Saruman's voice.....he had plenty of time to raise a force for the assault. I would think that his breeding of Uruks came, as you say, quite some time later and probably after he had crossed the line and thrown his lot in with Sauron (though he would have double crossed him given the opportunity as he showed in his "speech" to Gandalf). If any fought in the siege of Dol Guldur, I would think it would be the Dunlendings. I'm not sure what the elves would think of them, but Saruman was seen as an ally and the Dunlending were known as fierce fighters. I doubt any of the people of Rohan were involved. If so, it probably would have been mentioned and I can't see them fighting side by side with the same people they drove into the hills (or vice versa).

I think the Palantir of Orthanc was a double edged sword and Sauron saw more than Saruman would have wished. He could easily have used it to gather information on the White Council without Saruman necessarily knowing this was the case.

 

[Victarion]

How did Saruman obtain his Uruks in the books?

 

[InCali]

How did Saruman obtain his Uruks in the books?

We're pretty sure they were bred from Orcs and Men (pretty gross). It's said that Saruman bred Orcs and Men, but I don't think it definitively ties his Uruks (also called Uruk-hai which means Orc-folk) to these. Making an educated guess says that they are probably one and the same.

These orcs were larger and stronger than other orcs and could withstand the sun without being weakened to the degree that other orcs were (at least Saruman's could for sure; though they still hated the sun). They also walked more upright than other orcs. There were two types that I know of; Uruks of Mordor (Sauron's) and Uruks of Isengard (Saruman's). Sauron's were bred first and Saruman, as usual, being quite insecure, imitated his behavior (Much as he imitated Gandalf's smoking pipe-weed.).

Saruman's Uruks used weapons much closer to those of men; using broad-bladed swords instead of scimitars. They also used bows much closer to the design used by men (though orcs of all kinds used bows).

That's all I can think of right now.

 

[regwec]

I always thought that the Uruks and Half Orcs were separate. Bill Ferny's shifty friend, and many of Sharku's enforcers are said to be squint eyed and sallow faced, appearing to be "more than half an Orc". This seems to distinguish them from the Uruks, who are never perceived as anything other than Orcs, albeit of superior stock.

 

[InCali]

I always thought that the Uruks and Half Orcs were separate. Bill Ferny's shifty friend, and many of Sharku's enforcers are said to be squint eyed and sallow faced, appearing to be "more than half an Orc". This seems to distinguish them from the Uruks, who are never perceived as anything other than Orcs, albeit of superior stock.

Yeah....that could be the case. Makes sense. The walking upright, able to endure the sun, and using weapons more closely associated with men hints one way, but, as you say, the comment about Bill Ferny's friend looking more than half an Orc (which I'd forgotten about) could be telling. It could also be a statement of disgust rather than fact.

As I pointed out, the Uruks were never specifically referred to as being Saruman's intermingling of Orcs and humans. I'm maybe a little less sure now than I was.

What I wouldn't give to spend a day with Christopher Tolkien......Way better than saying "The bottle of swilling 5 VsoP XO bloated mornings" really fast. Or, even, watching the movie.

EDIT: Also, it could be that both that Uruks and the squint eyed, sallow faced characters are a result of Saruman's (really disgusting) breeding program and we're talking degrees and which parents were "selected"....uggghhhh....

 

[The_Manhunter]

How did I miss this thread I looked for a Hobbit thread for like a half hour lol

 

[InCali]

How did I miss this thread I looked for a Hobbit thread for like a half hour lol

My advice would be to not quit your job as Manhunter in order to try out Thread Hunting as an occupation.t:

There's actually some pretty good (albeit far reaching) discussion earlier in the thread.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Orcs and men. Hot.

 

[regwec]

Question is whether Saruman handed out several extra rations of ale to his Dunlending troops, and then introduced them by dim light to some scrubbed and hosed Orc females; or whether he captured a lot of human women, and gave them to his Orcs to rape. I fear the latter.

 

[Roose Bolton]

They never really mention the Orc females, though surely they exist...right?

 

[<(o_o)>]

They never really mention the Orc females, though surely they exist...right?

There just stashed away in the kitchen.

 

[Drizzle]

The Blu-ray and DVD coming our way March 24th.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=16079

Best Buy exclusive Steelbook:

 

[InCali]

Question is whether Saruman handed out several extra rations of ale to his Dunlending troops, and then introduced them by dim light to some scrubbed and hosed Orc females; or whether he captured a lot of human women, and gave them to his Orcs to rape. I fear the latter.

Tolkien never (that I can remember) mentions female Orcs, but, yes, they must exist. Rude.....just rude even thinking about it. I suppose genetic engineering via cloning is possible.....and preferable.