Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 17
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Marvolo
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Speaking of
Hell yeah! Nice Orcrist, too!
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Also Picked this up last Friday
How big is that?
Vartha
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I got that set for $45 at best buy the other day. Glad I waited even 89 was too much
Vartha
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think about six inches here's a link with someone holding it
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/ccUCdJ_0exQ/hqdefault.jpg
Boom
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Following Smaug’s death, the people of Lake-town regroup on the shore. Bard (reluctantly) assumes the leader role, and does what he can to get his people organized and moved to safer accommodations in the ruins of Dale (with winter not far away). I’m mostly okay with the Bard material. His children are insufferable at times (“Da! DAAA!”
, but Luke Evans is so charismatic and likeable that you put up with his children because of how important they are to him. Evans really sells his character, and is a joy to watch. There was, maybe, one moment with Bard in the entire film that I didn’t care for (an unnecessary action beat involving a cart), but overall the character was a bright spot, and that’s owed mainly to Evans. Frankly, my only genuine issue with the Lake-town material is that Alfrid, the Master’s stooge, inexplicably survived Lake-town’s destruction, and is given far more to do here than comes anywhere close to necessary. Jackson and Boyens gushed about Ryan Gage in the DoS DVD, and one can only surmise that they extended his role here purely out of love for the actor. He is a character that is profoundly useless to the plot, meant only for cheap comedy beats and nothing else. “Look at how sleazy he is!” “Isn’t his unibrow just so funny?” “He’s such a coward!”
It would have been one thing if it were limited to this opening scene, and resulted in him being ousted from the group. But no. He sticks around for the majority of the film, being slimy and cowardly and uni-browed and not much else. And he keeps popping up. Over and over again. So often, in fact, that by the end of the film I seriously wondered if he had just as much screentime as Bilbo when all was said and done. It certainly FELT like it at the very least. The character is that much of a distraction. And in the one moment where Alfrid might actually have something to offer – during the battle he asks Bard what he is fighting for – Jackson can’t help himself and has him dressed up as a woman, complete with breasts made out of gold coins. What could have been a touching moment for Bard is drowned out by Jackson giggling in your face, “Look! Unibrow is wearing a dress! Isn’t it hilarious how he is adjusting his gold boobs? What a sleaze!” It’s a complete tonal misstep.
Once they make it to shore following Lake-town’s destruction, Kili, Fili, Bofur, and Oin immediately make for the mountain, but not before Jackson fully commits to the hackneyed love plot. Kili asks Tauriel to come with him, that he knows how he feels and doesn’t care what anyone thinks. Tauriel puts up feigned resistance, but clearly wants to take Kili up on his offer. The mood is killed when Legolas re-appears (once again staring creepily at Tauriel from behind), and the dwarves set out. I’ll come back to the love plot in a bit.
Once we are back to the mountain, Thorin’s arc takes off. Thorin is slipping into dragon sickness, and watches over his hoarded treasure like a man possessed. Now “dragon sickness” is, in essence, a fancy, Medieval phrase for “greed.” It’s the instinctive desire to have something for the sake of having it, even at the expense of it being put to use for the sake of others. And no doubt, Thorin is greedy in the book. But here, Jackson and Company blow it up to ridiculous proportions. They treat “dragon sickness” as a literal sickness. A spell, of sorts. Even in his greed, Thorin in the book could be seen as somewhat reasonable (He agrees to parlay with Bard ONLY if the Elves who imprisoned them are told to leave.) Here? Thorin distrusts everyone, going so far as to accuse his companions of stealing the Arkenstone. He hears voices in his head. He hallucinates. He threatens his companions (He tells Dwalin he will kill him if he doesn’t get out of his sight). When Thorin speaks to Bilbo, Bilbo perceives Thorin’s voice as becoming that of Smaug’s. And who could forget the slow-mo? So much slow-mo. So much Thorin speaking sloooowly. It’s all just incredibly heavy-handed. It lacks all subtlety and grace.
This ties into a larger issue with the film. The “dragon sickness” affects all but one person in any notable way. Thranduil leads the Elves to the Mountain to reclaim white gems, which we learn were loved very dearly by his departed wife. So there is a personal motivation there that extends beyond pure greed. Bard is there to take Thorin up on his promise and use their share of the treasure to ensure the survival and re-establishment of his people. That is more than fair and reasonable. The other dwarves are almost entirely unaffected by the treasure (Dain arrives to defend the home of his kindred against hostile armies). Bilbo is unaffected. And obviously, Azog and his legions march upon the mountain as part of Sauron’s plan to take control of the North. Greed is almost completely taken out of the equation of the Battle of Five Armies, which is missing the point hugely. The only reason those five armies come together is out of a desire for Thror’s treasure. While the “hero” races ultimately band together against the Goblins and Wargs, they do so out of necessity. It is still a war that is sparked by the desire for that gold. And that’s why Tolkien doesn’t embellish the fight. He describes it as very terrible, because it is being fought for the very worst of reasons. In the film, Jackson is so caught up in the spectacle and battle formations that greed as an underlying theme is rendered minimal at best. You’re not thinking about the corruptive, destructive nature of greed during the battle at all. And really, the way these films are framed, the battle really becomes more about the good guys fighting Sauron’s army than anything else. If the message of the book is left, this is right.
, but Luke Evans is so charismatic and likeable that you put up with his children because of how important they are to him. Evans really sells his character, and is a joy to watch. There was, maybe, one moment with Bard in the entire film that I didn’t care for (an unnecessary action beat involving a cart), but overall the character was a bright spot, and that’s owed mainly to Evans. Frankly, my only genuine issue with the Lake-town material is that Alfrid, the Master’s stooge, inexplicably survived Lake-town’s destruction, and is given far more to do here than comes anywhere close to necessary. Jackson and Boyens gushed about Ryan Gage in the DoS DVD, and one can only surmise that they extended his role here purely out of love for the actor. He is a character that is profoundly useless to the plot, meant only for cheap comedy beats and nothing else. “Look at how sleazy he is!” “Isn’t his unibrow just so funny?” “He’s such a coward!” It would have been one thing if it were limited to this opening scene, and resulted in him being ousted from the group. But no. He sticks around for the majority of the film, being slimy and cowardly and uni-browed and not much else. And he keeps popping up. Over and over again. So often, in fact, that by the end of the film I seriously wondered if he had just as much screentime as Bilbo when all was said and done. It certainly FELT like it at the very least. The character is that much of a distraction. And in the one moment where Alfrid might actually have something to offer – during the battle he asks Bard what he is fighting for – Jackson can’t help himself and has him dressed up as a woman, complete with breasts made out of gold coins. What could have been a touching moment for Bard is drowned out by Jackson giggling in your face, “Look! Unibrow is wearing a dress! Isn’t it hilarious how he is adjusting his gold boobs? What a sleaze!” It’s a complete tonal misstep.
Once they make it to shore following Lake-town’s destruction, Kili, Fili, Bofur, and Oin immediately make for the mountain, but not before Jackson fully commits to the hackneyed love plot. Kili asks Tauriel to come with him, that he knows how he feels and doesn’t care what anyone thinks. Tauriel puts up feigned resistance, but clearly wants to take Kili up on his offer. The mood is killed when Legolas re-appears (once again staring creepily at Tauriel from behind), and the dwarves set out. I’ll come back to the love plot in a bit.
Once we are back to the mountain, Thorin’s arc takes off. Thorin is slipping into dragon sickness, and watches over his hoarded treasure like a man possessed. Now “dragon sickness” is, in essence, a fancy, Medieval phrase for “greed.” It’s the instinctive desire to have something for the sake of having it, even at the expense of it being put to use for the sake of others. And no doubt, Thorin is greedy in the book. But here, Jackson and Company blow it up to ridiculous proportions. They treat “dragon sickness” as a literal sickness. A spell, of sorts. Even in his greed, Thorin in the book could be seen as somewhat reasonable (He agrees to parlay with Bard ONLY if the Elves who imprisoned them are told to leave.) Here? Thorin distrusts everyone, going so far as to accuse his companions of stealing the Arkenstone. He hears voices in his head. He hallucinates. He threatens his companions (He tells Dwalin he will kill him if he doesn’t get out of his sight). When Thorin speaks to Bilbo, Bilbo perceives Thorin’s voice as becoming that of Smaug’s. And who could forget the slow-mo? So much slow-mo. So much Thorin speaking sloooowly. It’s all just incredibly heavy-handed. It lacks all subtlety and grace.
This ties into a larger issue with the film. The “dragon sickness” affects all but one person in any notable way. Thranduil leads the Elves to the Mountain to reclaim white gems, which we learn were loved very dearly by his departed wife. So there is a personal motivation there that extends beyond pure greed. Bard is there to take Thorin up on his promise and use their share of the treasure to ensure the survival and re-establishment of his people. That is more than fair and reasonable. The other dwarves are almost entirely unaffected by the treasure (Dain arrives to defend the home of his kindred against hostile armies). Bilbo is unaffected. And obviously, Azog and his legions march upon the mountain as part of Sauron’s plan to take control of the North. Greed is almost completely taken out of the equation of the Battle of Five Armies, which is missing the point hugely. The only reason those five armies come together is out of a desire for Thror’s treasure. While the “hero” races ultimately band together against the Goblins and Wargs, they do so out of necessity. It is still a war that is sparked by the desire for that gold. And that’s why Tolkien doesn’t embellish the fight. He describes it as very terrible, because it is being fought for the very worst of reasons. In the film, Jackson is so caught up in the spectacle and battle formations that greed as an underlying theme is rendered minimal at best. You’re not thinking about the corruptive, destructive nature of greed during the battle at all. And really, the way these films are framed, the battle really becomes more about the good guys fighting Sauron’s army than anything else. If the message of the book is left, this is right.
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Same here. I think the lack of fantasy helps too. It's based in dealing with people at least.
Nice. I'm currently re-watching the Appendices for the fifth time. If anyone wants to learn filmmaking, those three help significantly.
ThePhantasm
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Thanks for the review, Boom. Sounds ridiculous, especially Thorin's voice becoming like Smaug's (seriously??).
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I've got more coming. That what part two.
But yeah. There's a moment were Thorin says, "I will not part with a single coin. Not one piece of it." Basically, word-for-word with what Smaug said in the last film. And Bilbo perceives Thorin's voice as becoming Smaug's.
I get what they were going for symbolically, but the way it comes across is extremely hokey and heavy-handed. It seems impossible for Jackson to tackle themes with any sense of subtlety or grace. It always has to be right in your face and ballooned to melodramatic proportions. The emotional beats feel scripted, rather than coming across naturally or in any earned capacity.
But yeah. There's a moment were Thorin says, "I will not part with a single coin. Not one piece of it." Basically, word-for-word with what Smaug said in the last film. And Bilbo perceives Thorin's voice as becoming Smaug's.
I get what they were going for symbolically, but the way it comes across is extremely hokey and heavy-handed. It seems impossible for Jackson to tackle themes with any sense of subtlety or grace. It always has to be right in your face and ballooned to melodramatic proportions. The emotional beats feel scripted, rather than coming across naturally or in any earned capacity.
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Silvermoon
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I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion, but I kind of would've been okay with the whole love-subplot if it had just had better dialogue written (the farewell between Kili & Tauriel at the edge of the lake after Smaug's death *shudder*). That said, I actually didn't mind this exchange between Tauriel and Thranduil all that much and that's because it's wasn't so much about Tauriel and her grief - not to me anyways - as it is Thranduil and it being a companion piece to the exchange that had just occurred between him and Legolas. To me it was more insight to him, that his heart wasn't a complete block of ice and that he was capable of admitting that he was wrong.Why does it hurt so much?
Because it's real!
That's just my personal opinion though.
After seeing it twice now, there are some moments some of them small, that I just really liked (and want to call out - because this is a discussion board after all
) - spoiler tagging for, well, spoilers as well as possible length.Galadriel walking barefoot in Dol Guldur. It's such a small thing, but to me walking barefoot somewhere is so vulnerable and yet, she's not vulnerable.
Loved seeing Elrond in action. We haven't really seen that before (not even really in the FOTR prologue), so it was nice to see Elrond able to kick some (undead) butt.
The scene between Balin and Bilbo about whether finding the Arkenstone would help or make Thorin worse. Beautifully acted between the two of them - you get the love that Balin has for Thorin and his grief at seeing what Thorin is becoming. I also kind of got a sense that Balin might at least wonder if Bilbo might have already found it.
The following scene with Thorin and Bilbo and the acorn. Again, beautifully acted between Martin and Richard. There's a hint, just a hint of the old Thorin there with a smile that you get the feeling hasn't been seen in a while now, and then Dwalin interrupts with news of the Laketown survivors streaming into ruins of Dale.
It's a small thing but I love the relationship between Thranduil and Bard. I mean, you know there was the working relationship there prior (given Bard's job to retrieve the barrels and what not), but there are little moments that you get that let you have a sense that Thranduil does respect Bard. I mean, for goodness sakes, he's a king and he pours Bard a drink when Gandalf arrives (I also love the look Thranduil gives Bard when Gandalf is going at him/them... practically an eye roll *lol*)
Bilbo's/Martin's muttered "yeesss... sorry about that" when Thranduil makes the comment about stealing the keys from under his guard's noses *lol*
The Dwarves setting their shields and then the Elves vaulting over them, that was an awesome spine tingling moment for me.
I liked how the Elves appeared in the 'shadow world' when Bilbo put the ring on.
The final scene between Bilbo and Thorin, wonderfully played by two great actors. There's a small moment that really gets me though, and that's after Thorin has died. Bilbo starts crying, there's an overhead shot with the shadows of the eagles, and then it cuts back closer again and Bilbo/Martin lets out this heart wrenching sound. It's not sobbing, but closer to a wail - which (at least for me) you don't really hear all that often when crying is done in films. It's one of those things that helps sell the... genuineness of the moment.
The scene between Thranduil and Legolas. You have Thranduil searching among the dead and there is relief in his face when he sees his son and you can kind of also catch him looking Legolas over as though making sure he's not hurt. It's a small thing. Then you have him, after being closed off for so long, saying in his own way that he loves his son. It's not a full blown reconciliation between them, but the seeds for it are planted. I thought Lee Pace did an amazing job with this scene and I think he and Orlando had believable father/son chemistry (despite Orlando being 2 years older than Lee
)
Bilbo's farewell to the dwarves, I teared up when he started talking about teatime. I agree with my sister a bit that a nice little bookend would've been for the dwarves and/or Bilbo to bow with (one last time) "At your service" - though if that had happened, I probably would've full on bawled *lol*
Loved seeing Elrond in action. We haven't really seen that before (not even really in the FOTR prologue), so it was nice to see Elrond able to kick some (undead) butt.
The scene between Balin and Bilbo about whether finding the Arkenstone would help or make Thorin worse. Beautifully acted between the two of them - you get the love that Balin has for Thorin and his grief at seeing what Thorin is becoming. I also kind of got a sense that Balin might at least wonder if Bilbo might have already found it.
The following scene with Thorin and Bilbo and the acorn. Again, beautifully acted between Martin and Richard. There's a hint, just a hint of the old Thorin there with a smile that you get the feeling hasn't been seen in a while now, and then Dwalin interrupts with news of the Laketown survivors streaming into ruins of Dale.
It's a small thing but I love the relationship between Thranduil and Bard. I mean, you know there was the working relationship there prior (given Bard's job to retrieve the barrels and what not), but there are little moments that you get that let you have a sense that Thranduil does respect Bard. I mean, for goodness sakes, he's a king and he pours Bard a drink when Gandalf arrives (I also love the look Thranduil gives Bard when Gandalf is going at him/them... practically an eye roll *lol*)
Bilbo's/Martin's muttered "yeesss... sorry about that" when Thranduil makes the comment about stealing the keys from under his guard's noses *lol*
The Dwarves setting their shields and then the Elves vaulting over them, that was an awesome spine tingling moment for me.
I liked how the Elves appeared in the 'shadow world' when Bilbo put the ring on.
The final scene between Bilbo and Thorin, wonderfully played by two great actors. There's a small moment that really gets me though, and that's after Thorin has died. Bilbo starts crying, there's an overhead shot with the shadows of the eagles, and then it cuts back closer again and Bilbo/Martin lets out this heart wrenching sound. It's not sobbing, but closer to a wail - which (at least for me) you don't really hear all that often when crying is done in films. It's one of those things that helps sell the... genuineness of the moment.
The scene between Thranduil and Legolas. You have Thranduil searching among the dead and there is relief in his face when he sees his son and you can kind of also catch him looking Legolas over as though making sure he's not hurt. It's a small thing. Then you have him, after being closed off for so long, saying in his own way that he loves his son. It's not a full blown reconciliation between them, but the seeds for it are planted. I thought Lee Pace did an amazing job with this scene and I think he and Orlando had believable father/son chemistry (despite Orlando being 2 years older than Lee
)Bilbo's farewell to the dwarves, I teared up when he started talking about teatime. I agree with my sister a bit that a nice little bookend would've been for the dwarves and/or Bilbo to bow with (one last time) "At your service" - though if that had happened, I probably would've full on bawled *lol*
I might have more thoughts later.
edit: oh and I
really loved that Legolas ran out of arrows *lol*. I remember during LOTR seeing loads of comments about 'how come Legolas never runs out of arrows?' and so to finally see it happen was kind of fun *lol*
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Speaking of
I assume those have only the extended movies, none of the extras that were originally put out with the extended sets?
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Nice. I bought one when the films were coming out. Glamdring I think.
Marvolo
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The set comes with 15 discs. Each movie is split across two blu-rays. In addition to the three films you get all of the special features that appear on the DVD extended sets, and you get filmmaker Costa Botes' 3+ hour behind-the-scenes documentary, previously only vailable as part of a Limited Edition DVD release.
A review of the release can be found here.
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Lord-of-the-Rings-The-Motion-Picture-Trilogy-Blu-ray/12237/#Review
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Nice. I haven't got a bluray player yet, but that's a nice looking set.
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You of all people would get value for money, the number of films you watch!
John Locke
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I don't have my set with me but I think only the films are blurays and the special features are DVDs.
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Yep. Lol.
Not the 1st instance of lack of subtlelty with voices. The Galadriel one above where they just add a dude's voice to hers and want you to hear the combined effect but you can quite easily hear both separately. And in TTT when Gandalf meets Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas for the 1st time as Gandalf the White and they suspect him of being Saruman. They actually use Saruman's voice. I mean at least use a version of McKellen's voice modified to sound like Saruman's.
t: 
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Since I have a couple thousand regular DVDs (yes, a couple thousand) and I think 3 blurays that came with regular DVDs when I bought them....buying a bluray player is just an extra expense I don't need at the moment.
Not the 1st instance of lack of subtlelty with voices. The Galadriel one above where they just add a dude's voice to hers and want you to hear the combined effect but you can quite easily hear both separately. And in TTT when Gandalf meets Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas for the 1st time as Gandalf the White and they suspect him of being Saruman. They actually use Saruman's voice. I mean at least use a version of McKellen's voice modified to sound like Saruman's.
I didn't have a problem with the voice effects in the Hobbit or TLOTR movies. I thought it was well done. As a matter of fact, I felt that making Galadriels voice in that one scene in BOTFA sound like she did in the FOTR scene was very well done to connect the movies. As for using Chris Lee's voice instead of McKellen's in that scene, I believe the whole point was to momentarily confuse the audience members who didn't know the story. (they would be like Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli at that point in thinking it was Chris Lee there).
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You might already know but just in case, the blu-ray player should upscale all your DVDs assuming you have an HDTV. And they're quite cheap now. Just a suggestion but it's your money of course. I always overspend massively on home cinema type stuff.
My complaint is with the original FotR Galadriel effect, not with them carrying it over. I couldn't take it seriously when I could hear the 2 voices separately.
And you can confuse people by making it similar digitally rather than actually using his voice. It's in-your-face as opposed to subtle and kind of cheating/fraudulent, just looks silly on repeat viewings. You want the audience to think someone other than the true murderer killed the victim in your murder-mystery film not by showing false footage of a different guy actually doing it when he didn't, but by dropping clues that suggest he did but have more complexity behind them.
I'm a huge PJ fan. I love the extended edition of King Kong more than the original along with all of these Hobbit films but that guy just doesn't do subtle.
*see Alfrid*
t:
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Yeah, I know that old DVDs play on the bluray and that it is said to help the picture quality on them....but the simple fact is, I am now a retiree on a fixed income with an 8 year old daughter. I personally see no need at this point to buy a new player.
Then it's a case of you objecting to something that I have no problem with.My complaint is with the original FotR Galadriel effect, not with them carrying it over. I couldn't take it seriously when I could hear the 2 voices separately.
And you can confuse people by making it similar digitally rather than actually using his voice. It's in-your-face as opposed to subtle and kind of cheating/fraudulent, just looks silly on repeat viewings. You want the audience to think someone other than the true murderer killed the victim in your murder-mystery film not by showing false footage of a different guy actually doing it when he didn't, but by dropping clues that suggest he did but have more complexity behind them.
I'm a huge PJ fan. I love the extended edition of King Kong more than the original along with all of these Hobbit films but that guy just doesn't do subtle.
*see Alfrid*
After some delay I'm finally getting a chance to see this today. BTW, what the hell happened with all the Higher Frame Rate thing for this film? I've heard absolutely zero about this film being in 48fps, I'm guessing PJ's experiment has been a bit of a dud.
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Guess so. They'll go down to almost zero eventually anyway as with most tech so pays to wait when you're not in a rush.
There was always a chance of your good self or others being cool with it when I expressed the complaint. Just part of living on the edge. I think we'll both live.
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