Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 17

[Lucien]

I can't recall any specific quotes but I don't think the Istari could shed their mortal bodies at will. They were put in them specifically to restrain their powers and to feel the hurts of the world more. If they could im sure Saruman wouldve done so.

When Saruman was killed his spirit rose from his body and he attempted to turn back to Aman. A wind from the west (Manwe) then blew him back preventing his return. So I dont think they were automatically recalled in the event of death.

As Maian spirits though they could cloth themselves in a physical body, or disregard them at will to exist "naked" as an invisible spirit. Olorin (Gandalf) known as the wisest of the Maiar would go amongst the Elves invisible imparting sparks of wisdom into their minds without their knowing It did though take willpower and strength to create new bodies. Each time Sauron's body was "killed" I believe he took longer and longer to gather the strength to form a new one. But this is their true nature (as Maiar) and different from their existence as Istari.

 

[Venomfan]

i watched this again and enjoyed it more the 2nd time. Noticed something weird though, at the end when Bilbo is playing with the ring, it makes "chink" noises as if its hitting other pieces of metal when he moves it in his hand. kind of annoying

 

[InCali]

I can't recall any specific quotes but I don't think the Istari could shed their mortal bodies at will. They were put in them specifically to restrain their powers and to feel the hurts of the world more. If they could im sure Saruman wouldve done so.

When Saruman was killed his spirit rose from his body and he attempted to turn back to Aman. A wind from the west (Manwe) then blew him back preventing his return. So I dont think they were automatically recalled in the event of death.

As Maian spirits though they could cloth themselves in a physical body, or disregard them at will to exist "naked" as an invisible spirit. Olorin (Gandalf) known as the wisest of the Maiar would go amongst the Elves invisible imparting sparks of wisdom into their minds without their knowing It did though take willpower and strength to create new bodies. Each time Sauron's body was "killed" I believe he took longer and longer to gather the strength to form a new one. But this is their true nature (as Maiar) and different from their existence as Istari.

"Exactly" my take also. Melian did so and Olorin was also referenced as having done so. In fact, both the lesser (Maiar) and greater (Valar) spirits took physical form. And, my take is that the bodies of the wizards were somehow different than the forms they took for themselves. They clearly could not be shed at will.

 

[craigdbfan]

Well I ended up watching BOTFA and while it was my least favorite of all the Hobbit films it was probably the one that got me the most in terms of emotional beats. I was crying an ocean by the end of it. For a multitude of reasons. Thorin's death along with Bilbo's reaction probably got me the most. Probably the most I've cried in any of the ME films. Kili's death was also really sad and again Tauriel's reaction only made it that much more tragic.

The film itself though doesn't stand well alone at all but again the acting all across the board really saved it. I'll definitely need to see the extended edition.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

I still think this was a great movie, but I'm awaiting a supercut of all 3 Hobbit films. Instead of 3 good movies, I'm sure there's a fantastic one waiting to come out.

 

[craigdbfan]

Watched FOTR EE last night and still as much of a masterpiece as I remember. Last time I watched it was probably a year or so ago (not including the theatrical cuts I see every now and then on TNT).

I had forgotten how much more screen time Celeborn gets in it.

 

[regwec]

Yes, Celeborn does linger around a fair bit. I rewatched the whole EE trilogy over the last couple of weeks, and it seems I had forgotten many things that I liked, but had also forgotten the degree to which I disliked others.

Excepting Elrond and Arwen, Jackson's Elves are, for me, a real problem. I concede that translating them to screen is a difficult task, but PJ seems to have produced a mélange of too many influences (ranging from art nouveau to samurai to pre raphaelite and others), all loosely woven together by white light, stilted annunciation, and male actors who look a bit too thin and sickly for a career in modelling or a goth band. I cannot reconcile all of that with what is there in the text. The direction of the actors' delivery is a particular problem; Elves were said to have had voices "like music", but Jackson appears to have decided that they should all speak in a metronomic monotone without moving their eyes. Celeborn takes this to comic effect, but all the Elves of Lothlorien are guilty of it.

I think that, physically, Orlando Bloom actually makes a very good Elf, but not a great Legolas. He would have been perfectly cast as Glorfindel, as he is does exhibit the Elven youth, strength and beauty (if you like that kind of thing) that are supposed to be their hallmarks.

I cannot help thinking that the pre raphaelite influence was in the ballpark, but the rest wasn't. I'm sure that kind of visual was probably an influence on Tolkien's mind, particularly as illustration to Arthurian Romances and other mythic works.

It should be remembered that the cultures of the "good" peoples of Middle Earth appear to have overlapped, rather than forming incompatible typologies.

As for the weedy male Elf extras; that seems wrong as a general principle. Admittedly, Boromir considered himself and Aragorn to be stronger than Legolas, but elsewhere the Elves are roundly associated with physical vigour. Possibly, Legolas was a less burly specimen of Elf than those such as Glorfindel or Elohir. Anyway, I think the likely influence on Tolkien's concept of an enhanced physical ideal was probably classical sculpture.

This appears to have been an influence on the artist who depicts the Elves in the Tolkien Bestiary (which I own but don't have with me).

I also think the movie's Aragorn was very divergent from what was originally intended. I like the character that Viggo plays, and he plays it well, but I have to see it as something inherently different.

On a more positive note, I enjoyed the enxtended ROTK more than I thought.

 

[Victarion]

@Reg: What's your favorite material in the ROTK EE.

 

[regwec]

I think the Grey Havens are pretty well handled, and the protracted nature of the ending overall is less problematic when you have watched all the EE's successively, because the structure of the experience is extended. I actually think the Hobbits saying goodbye to Gandalf is the saddest moment in all the Middle Earth films, possibly because my own father is getting very old and I impute some kind of association there, but more generally because Gandalf more than any other character acts as our guide, tutor and mover of events. When he says his work is done, it feels like the loss of a friend.

Aside from that, I enjoyed most of the business surrounding the Rohirrim and their camps. It adds a bit more breathing space between battles, which makes the movies' world seem slightly less constrained.

 

[InCali]

I think the Grey Havens are pretty well handled, and the protracted nature of the ending overall is less problematic when you have watched all the EE's successively, because the structure of the experience is extended. I actually think the Hobbits saying goodbye to Gandalf is the saddest moment in all the Middle Earth films, possibly because my own father is getting very old and I impute some kind of association there, but more generally because Gandalf more than any other character acts as our guide, tutor and mover of events. When he says his work is done, it feels like the loss of a friend.

Aside from that, I enjoyed most of the business surrounding the Rohirrim and their camps. It adds a bit more breathing space between battles, which makes the movies' world seem slightly less constrained.

With regard to The Grey Havens, I couldn't agree with you more. Gandalf, Galadriel, Gildor, Frodo leave their friends and comrades they shared so much with. Very sad, but not nearly as sad as some of the appendices. The tale of Aragron and Arwen, the passing of Elessar, Arwen's visit to Lorien, and the departure of Legolas and Gimli. Uggghhhhh.......

 

[craigdbfan]

I remember reading that Tolkien thought about writing a "sequel" to LOTR that took place in the fourth age. He ended up changing his mind fairly quickly if memory serves me right.

 

[regwec]

Yes, Tom Shippey refers to it in his book JRR Tolkien: Author of the Century (which is highly recommended). I seem to recall that it was to feature a kind of Sauronic occult movement, and children playing at being Orcs. I have never read any excerpts, however.

 

[InCali]

I remember reading that Tolkien thought about writing a "sequel" to LOTR that took place in the fourth age. He ended up changing his mind fairly quickly if memory serves me right.

He actually started on a book called "The New Shadow" set in the time of, as I recall, Eldarion (Heir of Aragorn) sometime in the Fourth Age. It was abandoned, but I remember reading it (or parts of it) years ago. I recall one of the characters getting a chill down his spine or something like that due to the malevolent intent of the antagonist. I don't remember if it was ever spelled out who exactly the villan was, but I believe Tolkien abandoned the book because there wasn't anything in middle earth that transcended human evil.

An interesting path might have been to have one (or maybe two.....one good and one not so??) of the Istari return similar to (but lesser than) Saruman and, maybe, Gandalf. Depending on the exact time frame, even some weary elves could have been brought into the story as could dwarves and ents. The foundations of Barad-dur were destroyed along with the ring, but I'm sure some lesser dwelling could have been found; perhaps a neglected Minas Ithil or Isengard/Orthanc in Nan-Curunir.

Since Tolkien's work developed out of a linguistic exercise, I'll throw out a couple of tidbits. "Curunir" means something like "Man of Skill" (Nan-Curunir being the "Valley of Saruman"). Orthanc (Isengard, the tower of Saruman) means "Mount Fang" in Sindarin (Elvish) and "Cunning Mind" by the people of Rohan (Rohirrim).

The story never worked out for him though......

EDIT: Man, after reading this, it sounds so predictable (rehashing), but, hey, I'm not a writer and never claimed to be creative. t:

Maybe the bad guy could establish a stronghold in Dol Guldur, or Angmar, or Khazad-dum/Moria, or the Misty Mountains? That would be creative...

 

[Iceman]

I need to buy this Tolkien bestiary.

 

[kedrell]

The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies #1 at the box office for third week in a row!

Well it didn't take too long for BotFA to leave MJ1 in the dust WW. It should pass GotG inside of a week or so and then the march to beat TF4 begins. I think it can do it.

 

[Marvolo]

Mj1?

 

[craigdbfan]

Mocking Jay Part 1

 

[InCali]

I need to buy this Tolkien bestiary.

If you're really interested, I would read The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings in that order (others might say do just the opposite). One thing that will really strike you is that The Hobbit has a very different the tone and general feel to it. Much more like a fairy tale or something you might read to a youngster at bedtime. Clearly the others don't have that same tone and touch on subjects that are much more adult in nature (Of Turin Turambar being a prime example).

If you want more and want to dig a little (a lot) deeper, there's the unfinished tales and a 12 volume history of middle earth set which I believe you can now get in 3 volumes (I've read the individual books, but haven't read the 3 book version and don't know if there are parts of the original 12 that aren't in it or not). That will give you some idea of how the history of middle earth evolved (remember, he started these writings back in 1917).

If you're really sick, there are all kinds of reference materials out there including detailed breakdowns on language. It's got to be one of the richest literary landscapes ever created.

 

[InCali]

Well it didn't take too long for BotFA to leave MJ1 in the dust WW. It should pass GotG inside of a week or so and then the march to beat TF4 begins. I think it can do it.

I hope to god it does (beat it). $#!t-formers stunk to high heaven. I think if most of us knew how truly bad it was going to be, it probably wouldn't have broken 1B WW. I may be exaggerating, but I sure as hell wouldn't have spent 17 or so dollars to see it. Man, did I ever feel like an IDIOT after walking out of the theater. The only reason I didn't leave is that I spent so much on the ticket. I could have had a more enjoyable time cleaning my ear drums with a rusty nail.

 

[craigdbfan]

By now you should know what you're getting when you're walking into a Transformers film man.

 

[Iceman]

If you're really interested, I would read The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings in that order (others might say do just the opposite). One thing that will really strike you is that The Hobbit has a very different the tone and general feel to it. Much more like a fairy tale or something you might read to a youngster at bedtime. Clearly the others don't have that same tone and touch on subjects that are much more adult in nature (Of Turin Turambar being a prime example).

If you want more and want to dig a little (a lot) deeper, there's the unfinished tales and a 12 volume history of middle earth set which I believe you can now get in 3 volumes (I've read the individual books, but haven't read the 3 book version and don't know if there are parts of the original 12 that aren't in it or not). That will give you some idea of how the history of middle earth evolved (remember, he started these writings back in 1917).

If you're really sick, there are all kinds of reference materials out there including detailed breakdowns on language. It's got to be one of the richest literary landscapes ever created.

I'll definitely reread The Silmarillion, The Hobbit (both of which I've only read once and about 20 years ago) & the LotR (which I've read about 15 times, also not for about 10 years though) in that order. The tone is different and I'm more of a fan of the tone of his later books. I'm pretty much interested in everything on offer aside from the 'excesses' on language. He really did get 'sick' with that stuff. t: Aside from all this I need to buy the bestiary in any case to satisfy my bestiary fetish (try and get one for every universe I'm interested in)

 

[Marvolo]

Mocking Jay Part 1

Oh. I forgot about that one. I still haven't got to see it.

 

[InCali]

I'll definitely reread The Silmarillion, The Hobbit (both of which I've only read once and about 20 years ago) & the LotR (which I've read about 15 times, also not for about 10 years though) in that order. The tone is different and I'm more of a fan of the tone of his later books. I'm pretty much interested in everything on offer aside from the 'excesses' on language. He really did get 'sick' with that stuff. t: Aside from all this I need to buy the bestiary in any case to satisfy my bestiary fetish (try and get one for every universe I'm interested in)

Yeah. It's pretty wild that he started the writing as essentially a linguistic study/exercise. The stories filled in around that. At a very young age, he showed an immense talent for languages. He was a Language and Literature Professor at Oxford. I believe I read somewhere that, in those days, there was only 1 or 2 professors on a board of study.

 

[Lord]

By now you should know what you're getting when you're walking into a Transformers film man.

To be fair, even i was expecting more out of it, in least TF3's action moments felt like a ride, and i could see how some people enjoyed it, Extinction was extremely bland, Bay had the Dinobots to give the "wow factor".

As bad as the past TF films have been, each one did try to up the game, and by the 3rd film, Bay had delivered some quite impressive set pieces Chicago. Age of extinction managed to repeat everything that had already been done, and make it less impressive, even the dialogue has 10 times gotten dumber, i think i gringed at almost every scene featuring some kind of interaction. Did the first 3 films have such dumb dialogues like "never is here", "i also have a saying: i don't care", or "My face is my warrant"?

Even the logic took a worse nosedive, i get it why humans decided to turn against Autobots, but why the hell would they work with and listen to a much shadier bot like Lockdown?

Well, enough talking about Bayformers 4, i honestly hope that one doesn't last as top film of the year at the box office, while Hobbit 3 wasn't all that amazing either, it was still quite entertaining.

I liked the Thorin scenes quite a lot, a shame there weren't more scenes with Balin though.

 

[kedrell]

^There will likely be on the EE.