Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 17

[Quasimod0]

I think Sauron gets some other form of power from the Ring. I'm not exactly sure why it turns others invisible, but not him. I just imagine its because he knows how to use all the powers of the ring.

 

[Lucien]

While the ring exists Sauron will remain to command his armies and subjugate Middle-Earth. And although he may not physically wield it, the Rings power is still his to command unless someone else powerful enough claims it. He fears that this could happen so will not stop to regain it. His power will also fully return and actully be enhanced when he possesses it. And with the Ring, he could wholly undo the works of the Three. Lothlorien would fade and Imladris would fall to his armies, and so the 2 greatest Elvish strongholds in M-E would be destroyed. Gondor and Rohan couldn't survive alone and so Sauron would win outright.

 

[Iceman]

Did Isildur wield much additional power when he had the ring? The Elven rings helped the wearers so the One ring definitely should have strengthened him in some way. Otherwise we've only seen relatively weak, and in the case of Bilbo and Frodo very good-willed and resistant creatures bear it. It's been suggested how terrible it would have been if Gandalf or Galadriel had got hold of the ring.

 

[Lucien]

I dont think he had cause to wield it with the war over. He took it as "weregild" originally and to covet it; he had no use for it as a weapon. It granted him invisibility that much is definite. As a Numenorean king I'm sure he couldve used it to more benefit than Frodo could, probably to command his armies to greater effect and more assured victories.

 

[regwec]

Could someone explain to me on why Sauron getting back his ring is such a bad thing btw? Lol I mean as far as I've seen, it can only turn ppl invisible. Sure, sauron would get his physical form again but it doesn't look like it would be a deal breaker from what I saw in the films. I mean the dude is still commanding his armies without a body.

The One Ring had power over all the other rings, including the immensely powerful Elven rings. One could speculate that the Dwarven rings would also find their way back to Sauron, if he had the One. In any case, The One seemed to have special powers: once it was destroyed, the Third Age ended and the Elves faded from Middle Earth.

 

[InCali]

The One Ring had power over all the other rings, including the immensely powerful Elven rings. One could speculate that the Dwarven rings would also find their way back to Sauron, if he had the One. In any case, The One seemed to have special powers: once it was destroyed, the Third Age ended and the Elves faded from Middle Earth.

OK folks, Here's the short story......Sauron (also known a Thauron and Gorthaur the Cruel) wrested control of the 3 elven rings forged by Celebrimbor (grandson of Feanor and son of Feanor's fifth son Curufin) by putting much of his power into the 1 ring. This was necessary as the elvish rings were very powerful. With the ring, Sauron became more powerful than he was in the beginning because he was able to exercise control of the works of others. Without it, he didn't have his full power (but clearly was very powerful). It would be possible for someone of strong will (like Aragorn, who wrested control of the palantir from Sauron, Galadriel, or Gandalf) to wield the ring. Doing so, however, would utterly corrupt them. All of the above recognized this and refused to take the ring.

Think of the ring as a vessel of Sauron's power. With it, he gained the power of others, without it, he was weakened and didn't have full control of the power of the ring, if the ring was destroyed, so was the power he put into it and he would be weakened beyond ever being able to take shape again.

The interesting thing is the Frodo himself became powerful enough to control the ring when he stood at the edges of Sammath Naur (inside Orodruin/Mount Doom). He was barely able to get there and Sam had to carry him on his back. Once he got there, he claimed the ring as his own and spoke so in a clear, powerful voice. Had Gollum/Smeagol not bitten his finger off, Frodo might very well have been able to control the Nazgul and the armies of Sauron and defeated him. In doing so he would have become corrupted.

Earlier I said I thought Frodo actually pushed Gollum in to the fires of Orodruin and here's why I think this is the case. Frodo's finger was still in the ring when Gollum fell into the fires. A short time earlier, Gollum had tried to physically take the ring from Frodo and failed. At that point, Frodo told him that if he ever tried to take the ring from him again, that he himself would be cast into the fires of Orodruin.....and when he took the ring from Frodo, with Frodo's finger still in the ring, that's exactly what happened.

So, some of this is conjecture (but well founded IMO) and some is explained in JRR's writings.

Make sense??

 

[InCali]

I dont think he had cause to wield it with the war over. He took it as "weregild" originally and to covet it; he had no use for it as a weapon. It granted him invisibility that much is definite. As a Numenorean king I'm sure he couldve used it to more benefit than Frodo could, probably to command his armies to greater effect and more assured victories.

And would have become corrupted as surely as Gollum was. Isildur was fortunate to have been killed at the Gladden Fields as a worse fate awaited him had he kept the ring. Gollum was a tragic character. Without him, Frodo would have been lost. His utter corruption at the end ultimately became Frodo's salvation.

EDIT: Isildur had yet to "learn" how to control the ring as he had only possessed it for a short time. Frodo, on the other hand, had the ring for years (though he rarely used it). Gollum just wasn't strong enough to control it and, in any case, acquired it through murder.

 

[Lucien]

And would have become corrupted as surely as Gollum was. Isildur was fortunate to have been killed at the Gladden Fields as a worse fate awaited him had he kept the ring. Gollum was a tragic character. Without him, Frodo would have been lost. His utter corruption at the end ultimately became Frodo's salvation.

EDIT: Isildur had yet to "learn" how to control the ring as he had only possessed it only for a short time. Frodo, on the other hand, had the ring for years (though he rarely used it). Gollum just wasn't strong enough to control it and, in any case, acquired it through murder.

Indeed. Even in Sauron's reduced and greatly weakened state, he was still master of the Ring. For Isildur to truly use it to its full power he wouldve had to have wrested mastery of it from Sauron, which wouldve totally corrupted him and place him as the new dark lord. Maybe he couldve achieved this if he tried while Sauron was so weakened, but im quite sure Tolkien had stated it wouldve taken someone of higher stature like Gandalf to do so. Even Aragorn couldn't have done it. Although Frodo had claimed it in the end, he hadnt deposed Sauron as its master, and he couldnt hope to do so. Tolkien explained that had the Nazgul reached him, and had Frodo tried to command them, they would've feigned submission and led him to Sauron who would then take the Ring back.

 

[Brother Jack]

The whole Amon Hen sequence in Fellowship is amazing but Boromir's death in particular is incredibly well done. One of the best deaths I've seen in a movie honestly. That film has a perfect ending.

I always felt like Boromir got a raw deal out of the story. He was always the odd man out, the traitor, and the only one of the fellowship to actually die and he goes out pretty early. And his point of view makes a lot of sense when you look at it as him just desperately trying to save his harried people. He just didn't factor in the ring's malevolent power swaying even the purest of motives.

 

[Herolee10]

Out of curiosity, just so that I have a better idea of how these rings work, was the whole light-energy protection that Galadriel was throwing off when rescuing Gandalf a result of her Elvish ring? Or was that all on her own without it?

 

[Vartha]

Out of curiosity, just so that I have a better idea of how these rings work, was the whole light-energy protection that Galadriel was throwing off when rescuing Gandalf a result of her Elvish ring? Or was that all on her own without it?

Her own power from my understanding.

 

[Vartha]

That's the good thing about being a purist....I don't have to be pragmatic. The worst thing about it is that I never get exactly what I want. t: The best thing about the worst thing is that I don't let it get me down and am still able to enjoy movies I don't think are perfect (hey, works for me).

If I can't have it all, then I want to start with early Valinor and end after the flight of the Noldor and the the first battles of Middle Earth. It's a good foundation and a lead in for other stories in The Silmarillion. If I were to pick one story, it would be Beren and Luthien because it brings SO many different areas of the larger tale together. Thingol/Melian and Doriath, Melkor/Morgoth, Utumno, the Iron Crown, and those gems made by Feanor....what were they called? Oh yeah....The Silmarils. They were sort of important to the book (if you get my drift).

Also, there were some really cool characters like Carcharoth, Huan, etc. that would be really cool to see as well as the start of the line of "the" pivotal character in LotR (Aragorn). The tale of the house of Hurin is one of the best in The Silmarillion, but doesn't reach as far as the expounding of the Lay of Leithian. (IMO)

EDIT: Oops....this isn't The Silmarillion thread. Sorry.

lol I've been pushing for at LEAST a Fantasy section to do threads like that. But here is okay too

 

[Iceman]

I'd love a fantasy section. That's one thing I'd like to talk about a lot and the more of my major interests covered here the less need to ever join any other forums.

 

[Iceman]

I dont think he had cause to wield it with the war over. He took it as "weregild" originally and to covet it; he had no use for it as a weapon. It granted him invisibility that much is definite. As a Numenorean king I'm sure he couldve used it to more benefit than Frodo could, probably to command his armies to greater effect and more assured victories.

Seems to help significantly with command over others/leadership.

OK folks, Here's the short story......Sauron (also known a Thauron and Gorthaur the Cruel) wrested control of the 3 elven rings forged by Celebrimbor (grandson of Feanor and son of Feanor's fifth son Curufin) by putting much of his power into the 1 ring. This was necessary as the elvish rings were very powerful. With the ring, Sauron became more powerful than he was in the beginning because he was able to exercise control of the works of others. Without it, he didn't have his full power (but clearly was very powerful). It would be possible for someone of strong will (like Aragorn, who wrested control of the palantir from Sauron, Galadriel, or Gandalf) to wield the ring. Doing so, however, would utterly corrupt them. All of the above recognized this and refused to take the ring.

Think of the ring as a vessel of Sauron's power. With it, he gained the power of others, without it, he was weakened and didn't have full control of the power of the ring, if the ring was destroyed, so was the power he put into it and he would be weakened beyond ever being able to take shape again.

The interesting thing is the Frodo himself became powerful enough to control the ring when he stood at the edges of Sammath Naur (inside Orodruin/Mount Doom). He was barely able to get there and Sam had to carry him on his back. Once he got there, he claimed the ring as his own and spoke so in a clear, powerful voice. Had Gollum/Smeagol not bitten his finger off, Frodo might very well have been able to control the Nazgul and the armies of Sauron and defeated him. In doing so he would have become corrupted.

Earlier I said I thought Frodo actually pushed Gollum in to the fires of Orodruin and here's why I think this is the case. Frodo's finger was still in the ring when Gollum fell into the fires. A short time earlier, Gollum had tried to physically take the ring from Frodo and failed. At that point, Frodo told him that if he ever tried to take the ring from him again, that he himself would be cast into the fires of Orodruin.....and when he took the ring from Frodo, with Frodo's finger still in the ring, that's exactly what happened.

So, some of this is conjecture (but well founded IMO) and some is explained in JRR's writings.

Make sense??

Makes sense. I would have liked to see how Forod would have been with the Ring long term.

 

[Lucien]

Seems to help significantly with command over others/leadership.

Its primary power was to control the other Rings of Power and the minds of those that wore them. This ultimately failed except with the Nine.

Because it contained part of Sauron himself it ended up actually amplifying his power. I believe this transferred down to other wielders in the power to impose their will over others if that wielder was of a strong enough mind/nature. It also amplified the inherent abilities of those who wore it. Hobbits bacame stealthier and easier to move unheard. Isildur as Numenorean King I believe wouldve become more commanding and seen as greater in stature.

 

[Iceman]

Its primary power was to control the other Rings of Power and the minds of those that wore them. This ultimately failed except with the Nine.

Because it contained part of Sauron himself it ended up actually amplifying his power. I believe this transferred down to other wielders in the power to impose their will over others if that wielder was of a strong enough mind/nature. It also amplified the inherent abilities of those who wore it. Hobbits bacame stealthier and easier to move unheard. Isildur as Numenorean King I believe wouldve become more commanding and seen as greater in stature.

Right. All very interesting. Wish I'd read/remembered more about the effects of all the rings. I've got Sideshow Collectibles replicas of the One Ring and the 3 Elven rings.

 

[InCali]

Its primary power was to control the other Rings of Power and the minds of those that wore them. This ultimately failed except with the Nine.

Because it contained part of Sauron himself it ended up actually amplifying his power. I believe this transferred down to other wielders in the power to impose their will over others if that wielder was of a strong enough mind/nature. It also amplified the inherent abilities of those who wore it. Hobbits bacame stealthier and easier to move unheard. Isildur as Numenorean King I believe wouldve become more commanding and seen as greater in stature.

Sort of. The 9 lords of men were the easiest to control through their thirst for power. The dwarves were too stubborn to control (were actually created by Aule and were a completely different sort than those created by Illuvatar (Eldar, Edain), but each of their 7 rings was the basis for the great Dwarf hoards of Middle Earth; those rings, essentially, brought a higher level of greed into their hearts. When Sauron put on the 1 ring, the elven lords who were given the rings (Gil-Galad, Galadriel, and, possibly, Cirdan) became aware of his plans and took off the rings as he was able to see their thoughts and plans when in possession of the ring. Whether the power of those rings could have been controlled by Sauron had they kept them on isn't, I believe, known for sure.

At the end of the Second Age and the downfall of Sauron through the efforts of the Last Alliance between Elves and Men, the Elves were able to put their rings back on and use them for the preservation and healing of Middle Earth. Gil-Galad (the last elven king of Middle Earth), who had the mightiest ring Vilya (The ring of the sky) was killed by the the hand of Sauron during that battle (As was the Elendil, ancestor of Aragorn, and the King of the Numenorians of Middle Earth) and his ring was passed to Elrond Half-Elven. Gil-Galad was also given Narya, the ring of fire, which had the power to bring courage to the hearts of others. That ring was entrusted to Cirdan the Shipwright, who subsequently passed the ring on to Gandalf. The last ring, Nenya, the ring of adamant or water was given by Celebrimbor to Galadriel (who loved her). This ring had the power to preserve, heal, and conceal (all used by Galadriel to keep Lorien safe and hidden from Sauron).

At the end of the Third Age and the final destruction of the 1 ring and Sauron, the 3 rings faded and set the stage for the Elves leaving Middle Earth forever.

While this may not seem to be directly related to "The Hobbit", I think it gives a foundation for what was going on in the movie and explains a lot of what was not explained in both "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" and will, hopefully, give people a deeper understanding of the importance of Bilbo finding the ring, The Fellowship of the Ring, etc.

Have a great New Year!

 

[InCali]

Its primary power was to control the other Rings of Power and the minds of those that wore them. This ultimately failed except with the Nine.

Because it contained part of Sauron himself it ended up actually amplifying his power. I believe this transferred down to other wielders in the power to impose their will over others if that wielder was of a strong enough mind/nature. It also amplified the inherent abilities of those who wore it. Hobbits bacame stealthier and easier to move unheard. Isildur as Numenorean King I believe wouldve become more commanding and seen as greater in stature.

The ring gave the bearer power commensurate with their own stature. Gollum hid in the mountain, Bilbo used it (rarely) with somewhat greater effect. Had someone like Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, Galadriel, etc. used it, they would probably have been able to fully use its power....to their own eventual detriment.

 

[InCali]

Indeed. Even in Sauron's reduced and greatly weakened state, he was still master of the Ring. For Isildur to truly use it to its full power he wouldve had to have wrested mastery of it from Sauron, which wouldve totally corrupted him and place him as the new dark lord. Maybe he couldve achieved this if he tried while Sauron was so weakened, but im quite sure Tolkien had stated it wouldve taken someone of higher stature like Gandalf to do so. Even Aragorn couldn't have done it. Although Frodo had claimed it in the end, he hadnt deposed Sauron as its master, and he couldnt hope to do so. Tolkien explained that had the Nazgul reached him, and had Frodo tried to command them, they would've feigned submission and led him to Sauron who would then take the Ring back.

We'll never know for sure about Frodo. There was a part in (I believe) The Two Towers, where it was noted that had Aragorn wielded the ring, he would have made a formidable master (that's a paraphrase). Remember, he wrested control of the palantir, through great effort, from Sauron himself. After that Sauron moved more quickly than he originally planned. Aragorn very possibly could have done the same with the ring as he did with The Palantir. We'll never know for sure, but Sauron himself CLEARLY saw him as a deadly threat and it wasn't because of his "army". Why else would Sauron fear him? The only reason I can think of is that he knew Aragorn had the strength to control the ring if he put it on.

 

[regwec]

Interesting. I had thought that Aragorn's presentation of the reforged Anduril before the Palantir was crucial to showing Sauron his lineage, and that he represented a threat that could not be ignored. I seem to remember that Aragorn says something like "the right could not be doubted, the strength was enough- just", which would seem to indicate that blood and pedigree were as important as willpower in controlling the Palantir. I wouldn't have thought that the Palantir provide a perfect analogy for the One Ring, since the former were previously independent treasures that Sauron had come to dominate, while the latter was his own creation.

 

[Lucien]

From one of Tolkiens letters:

"In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of ‘mortals’ no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present."

"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him—being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. … [However, c]onfrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine a scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other the superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.”

I can't find the part where he explains how the Nazgul wouldve feined allegiance to Frodo had he tried claiming the Ring completely.

 

[Herolee10]

Is it true btw that the character called eru actually had somewhat of a active role in the lotr series, albeit behind the scenes?

 

[regwec]

Eru was the creator God, synonymous with that of the Judeo-Christian tradition, so inevitably he foresaw and predestined everything.

 

[Lucien]

Found it Sorry for the long text, but I find it very revealing.

"Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons...

...Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination? Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon himor taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt –saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible...

...I think they would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur – for instance 'to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes'. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed theentrance. Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans of reformedrule – like but far greater and wider than the vision that tempted Sam (III 177)5 – to heed this. But if he still preserved some sanity and partly understood the significance of it, so that he refused now to go with them to Barad-dûr, they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came."

 

[InCali]

From one of Tolkiens letters:

"In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of ‘mortals’ no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present."

"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him—being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. … [However, c]onfrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine a scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other the superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.”

I can't find the part where he explains how the Nazgul wouldve feined allegiance to Frodo had he tried claiming the Ring completely.

Very interesting. I never read that, but it makes sense. Galadriel herself seemed to think that she could set herself up in Sauron's place, but refused the ring. Later Tolkien indicated that she was the greatest of the Noldor (seemed to include Feanor).

Thanks for that tidbit. I don't often come across things like this that I haven't read (although, after thinking about it, this is sounding a little bit familiar). Where is this written?