Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 17

[InCali]

Interesting. I had thought that Aragorn's presentation of the reforged Anduril before the Palantir was crucial to showing Sauron his lineage, and that he represented a threat that could not be ignored. I seem to remember that Aragorn says something like "the right could not be doubted, the strength was enough- just", which would seem to indicate that blood and pedigree were as important as willpower in controlling the Palantir. I wouldn't have thought that the Palantir provide a perfect analogy for the One Ring, since the former were previously independent treasures that Sauron had come to dominate, while the latter was his own creation.

That's true. Aragorn did show him the sword; the sword reforged that robbed him of the ring. I don't think that, in and of itself, would drive Sauron to move faster than planned unless he feared someone would take control of the ring. It surely isn't a one to one correspondence between the palantir and the ring, but the strength to wrest it away was beyond the strength of Saruman (also a Maia).

 

[InCali]

Eru was the creator God, synonymous with that of the Judeo-Christian tradition, so inevitably he foresaw and predestined everything.

Also known as Iluvatar.

 

[InCali]

From one of Tolkiens letters:

"In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of ‘mortals’ no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present."

"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him—being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. … [However, c]onfrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine a scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other the superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.”

I can't find the part where he explains how the Nazgul wouldve feined allegiance to Frodo had he tried claiming the Ring completely.

Nice to meet someone with your chops on Tolkien's world. There aren't THAT many out there.

I also seem to recall a part in the LotR (book) where Gandalf is talking to Frodo and telling him who might be powerful enough to wield the ring. I believe he includes Elrond and says something like "few others and for them the ring holds a greater danger" (paraphrase). Sound familiar? The point is that while I can fully appreciate that this is way beyond Frodo, I think there are some who might be able to wrest the ring from Sauron (beyond Gandalf, who, I think, we all agree would be the most likely to actually pull it off).

 

[InCali]

Out of curiosity, just so that I have a better idea of how these rings work, was the whole light-energy protection that Galadriel was throwing off when rescuing Gandalf a result of her Elvish ring? Or was that all on her own without it?

That was a "movie" thing invented by Peter Jackson and doesn't have the slightest connection to the books. Mr. Jackson could probably best answer what he was thinking because I don't have a clue.

 

[InCali]

Her own power from my understanding.

Maybe so. Could have had help from Nenya though...I dunno....the whole Galadriel, Tauriel thing in the latest trilogy had me shaking my (purist) head in something akin to disbelief.....

 

[Lucien]

Very interesting. I never read that, but it makes sense. Galadriel herself seemed to think that she could set herself up in Sauron's place, but refused the ring. Later Tolkien indicated that she was the greatest of the Noldor (seemed to include Feanor).

Thanks for that tidbit. I don't often come across things like this that I haven't read (although, after thinking about it, this is sounding a little bit familiar). Where is this written?

They're from one of his letters, as published in "The Letters of JRR Tolkien". Its an insightul read, definitely recommend it.

 

[InCali]

They're from one of his letters, as published in "The Letters of JRR Tolkien". Its an insightul read, definitely recommend it.

That's funny. I actually have that somewhere, but don't know where it is right now. I'll have to dust it off or visit Amazon.

I don't remember the details, but do remember being interested in how Tolkien's thoughts changed over the years. Legolas was one example. In the book, he seems to be one of the lesser (with some exceptions like chasing orcs in the beginning of The Two Towers) members of the Fellowship. An example would be the contest Gimli won at Helm's Deep. but I recall Tolkien describing him as being strong as a tree and the hardiest of the Fellowship (paraphrase). Another was Galadriel's ascension within the Noldor.

The bottom line is that it is what JRR says it is; even though his own views (understandably) changed over the years.

We're going to have to start a thread about this stuff if it doesn't already exist.

 

[Persona]

same thoughts i posted on CHUD:

i have no excuse for Alfrid. that was a bizarre waste of screen time and perhaps a good Exhibit A of the potential pitfalls of artistic freedom. though i'm still always Team Artistic Freedom.
so much great stuff in this movie. along with so much other not-great stuff.

The Hobbit would have made two fantastic movies (meaning also less CG shots and so better ones). i can live with the three but instead of extended cuts i wish we were getting abridged ones. it starts with the scripts, though. i don't know that fan edits can work too well.

and yet there was still a lot of things in this that make me marvel at Jackson's imagination and vision. he and his team do some hyper-detailed, compelling stuff but it just gets bogged down with narrative bloat and hubris. but man there was some great imagery and some great character moments within the mess. i really hope Jackson makes a smaller film next, a less revered property or an original one, and i hope the movie isn't half green-screen, because i still have a lot of faith in him as a filmmaker. his style is unique and personal and there is real talent behind it, which is more than i can say for many of the genre blockbuster films being churned out by Hollywood.

 

[DKDetective]

Out of curiosity, just so that I have a better idea of how these rings work, was the whole light-energy protection that Galadriel was throwing off when rescuing Gandalf a result of her Elvish ring? Or was that all on her own without it?

You would have ask Peter Jackson to find out. Much of what he does in the Hobbit films and even some of the LOTR trilogy bears no relation to Tolkien's written works and even contradicts those, so it is practically impossible to explain the crap that Jackson comes up with based on the legendarium.

 

[Mad Ones]

There were so many moments where my theatre (myself included) laughed at parts that shouldn't have been funny. Bard killing Smaug was downright comical. I still laugh at that ridiculous set-up with his kid. Why was that necessary? There were so many decisions made in this movie that puzzle.

 

[Marvolo]

Im sorry but anyone who laughed at that scene between Bard and his son need to learn some self control. The way Bard tells his kid to only look at him and not to worry. The kid trusting his father and the dad trying to comfort his son and protect him was sweet and heartfelt. Nothing funny about it.

 

[Iceman]

I didn't find it funny but it seemed a little contrived.

 

[Herolee10]

I've been meaning to ask, but for ALL of the changes that Jackson has made (regarding the source material from the book when it came to adapting them onto film) to both the LOTR and Hobbit films, were there any that you guys were a fan of?

Was there even something that you actually liked more on how it was done on film than what was presented in the books?

 

[regwec]

I don't object to the storm on Caradhras being conjured by Saruman rather than raised by the spirits of the mountain, though the original has its own merits.

Though not really necessary to the core of the story, the expansions to Arwen's and Eowyn's roles do bring some feminine balance to the tale.

I'm sure there are others. I will try to recall some more.

 

[regwec]

It is nearly impossible to fight multiple opponents with a medieval broadsword and no shield or dagger for defence. It was a good idea to give Boromir a round shield.

 

[Iceman]

I liked the addition of Elves to Helms Deep.

 

[regwec]

We should have seen the bullet train they used to get there, though.

 

[Iceman]

That'll be in the extended Extended Edition. Tauriel will be driving.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That'll be in the extended Extended Edition. Tauriel will be driving.

 

[Victarion]

We should have seen the bullet train they used to get there, though.

Bullet wurm.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Of the three, I thought this one was the best of them. It still had its problems (Alfrid, the Smaug stuff which should have been in the last film rather than this one), but it felt more like a complete story and it didn't drag on forever like the first two. There was a lot more that kept my attention this go around.

 

[The Joker]

^ Glad to hear that. I am seeing this tomorrow, and the previous two didn't impress me much.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I agree the third is easily the best of the lot.

 

[MrMaooz]

I personally think that DoS was the best one. Honestly though, I change up which one I think is the best.

 

[C. Lee]

There were so many moments where my theatre (myself included) laughed at parts that shouldn't have been funny. Bard killing Smaug was downright comical. I still laugh at that ridiculous set-up with his kid. Why was that necessary? There were so many decisions made in this movie that puzzle.

To me....that was one of the least funny moments of the film...the set of Bard talking his son out of being overcome by fear and trusting in him was a beautiful moment.