Official Wolverine And The X-men, Episode 12, "eXcessive Force"

[Syncos]

I agree that Wolverine was hypocritical in that scene and I have a hard time believing he wouldn't be equally as eager to find Jean either, but whatever. Cyclops kicked arse, end of story.

Superman had to wait a season to become a character again in JUSTICE LEAGUE, at least Cyclops didn't have to wait that long.

I think Logan believes Jean is honestly dead. All this time and no psychic can find trace of her? They found Xavier's body pretty quickly.

 

[Dread]

I think Logan believes Jean is honestly dead. All this time and no psychic can find trace of her? They found Xavier's body pretty quickly.

Fair enough.

Considering Wolverine was willing to abandon the team simply to explore some random flashback he had, it did come off a little hypocritical. So Logan was afraid he'd killed someone a decade ago? Too bad; that had NO impact on the current rag-tag team he was leading or the conflicts they were aware of; if anything, his return got the Weapon X people to start moving stuff again. Logan left the team all the time in the past and is more the well known for chopping up scenery. Yet Cyclops does it, and he's the worst X-Man ever. It was sheer hypocrisy and if anything, you'd think Wolverine would have some leeway for solo adventures for personal reasons.

He clearly had a higher standard for Cyclops than himself, which was where the issue got into play. It was odd seeing a hypocritical Logan. Usually he is one who the audience will easily agree with and is CALLING OUT against a hypocritical leader. That was my major beef.

Plus, Cyke just caves, which makes him look weak and undoes some of the last 15 minutes of butt-kick. Not all of it, thankfully.

 

[Syncos]

Fair enough.

Considering Wolverine was willing to abandon the team simply to explore some random flashback he had, it did come off a little hypocritical. So Logan was afraid he'd killed someone a decade ago? Too bad; that had NO impact on the current rag-tag team he was leading or the conflicts they were aware of; if anything, his return got the Weapon X people to start moving stuff again. Logan left the team all the time in the past and is more the well known for chopping up scenery. Yet Cyclops does it, and he's the worst X-Man ever. It was sheer hypocrisy and if anything, you'd think Wolverine would have some leeway for solo adventures for personal reasons.

He clearly had a higher standard for Cyclops than himself, which was where the issue got into play. It was odd seeing a hypocritical Logan. Usually he is one who the audience will easily agree with and is CALLING OUT against a hypocritical leader. That was my major beef.

Plus, Cyke just caves, which makes him look weak and undoes some of the last 15 minutes of butt-kick. Not all of it, thankfully.

In all seriousness, Logan though it may be hypocritical, should have a higher standard for Scott than himself. He's seen Scott be a great leader, and now he's just a fraction of what he used to be. I think it was more of an attempt at a wake up call than an ultimatum.

Scott did take it like a chump, though.

In fairness to Logan, yeah, he might leave on occasion on some wild goose chases. But he's not in the middle of a town demolishing crap to take out one dude. He's not putting the X-Men in the public eye, especially when they're already a target thanks to what they were tricked into doing at the mayors speech.

Oh well.

 

[TheVileOne]

Wolverine didn't abandon the team.

He also didn't start a wildly dangerous fight in the public for a selfish agenda. They are too totally different situations. Wolverine was being more rational than Scott.

 

[Dread]

In all seriousness, Logan though it may be hypocritical, should have a higher standard for Scott than himself. He's seen Scott be a great leader, and now he's just a fraction of what he used to be. I think it was more of an attempt at a wake up call than an ultimatum.

Scott did take it like a chump, though.

In fairness to Logan, yeah, he might leave on occasion on some wild goose chases. But he's not in the middle of a town demolishing crap to take out one dude. He's not putting the X-Men in the public eye, especially when they're already a target thanks to what they were tricked into doing at the mayors speech.

Oh well.

Aside for the time when Wolverine very clearly led the X-Men into a fight with soldiers on live TV when the Brotherhood suckered him. No one told Logan off on that.

At least we agree that Scott took it like a gutless chump, which didn't mesh with the earlier part of the episode. Worse, it gave the impression that Scott ONLY has a backbone when it means Jean.

Wolverine didn't abandon the team.

He also didn't start a wildly dangerous fight in the public for a selfish agenda. They are too totally different situations. Wolverine was being more rational than Scott.

Wolverine did abandon the team, against Xavier's objections, to explore some mundane thing about his past. It was a character journey, yes, but it had nothing to do with the X-Men or their plight against Trask & Co. If anything, it merely got Weapon X stirring again. They might have milked Rogue for information on the Brotherhood had Logan been there. He wasn't.

Wolverine was being a tad stubborn; when Emma even hinted at the concept of Scott being right, Logan was very adamant against it. The thing is, I wouldn't mind Logan being stubborn or a hypocrite or all that if other characters would react in kind rather than sulking and/or going "Yes Logan," etc. They don't need to oversell Logan too much here.

The point is that Logan wasn't at all understanding towards Scott at all when he clearly should know better as he has been in similar situations in the past, presumably before the pilot.

 

[TheVileOne]

No he hasn't. He never draws the X-men into it .

Cyclops said, "You've started wars over less."

And Logan says, "Yeah, but I keep the X-men out of it."

 

[Dread]

No he hasn't. He never draws the X-men into it .

Cyclops said, "You've started wars over less."

And Logan says, "Yeah, but I keep the X-men out of it."

Cyclops went on his own. He was trying to get Logan involved, because of the mutual love of Jean, not the rest of the team. Cyclops was perfectly fine with going alone. Emma Frost was the one who convinced the X-Men to go rescue him, because for some reason that makes no human sense based on what we've seen, she genuinely likes Scott.

Quite why is unknown. Scott isn't even aware of her feelings and only sees her as a tool to find Jean. Going on your presumptions of him, when he hasn't been mute, he's been endangering civilians or the rest of his team with his own vendetta. There's nothing attractive about him except maybe his face, which is a pretty shallow reason for someone like Frost to be smitten with him. None of the attractive character traits Cyclops seemingly has he has had in this show, and never will because it would make less sense that he submits to Logan's "judgment" (which is "follow Xavier" and "slash stuff").

It was Logan's own talent for abandoning the team at random intervals that got Rogue to lose interest and betray them. Not one character throws that up. Again, my problem really is how Logan is Robin from TEEN TITANS here; portrayed as being impossibly perfect and always right, even when he does things where any reasonable character would either challenge him or stand up for themselves. It sucked some potential for characterization out of TEEN TITANS and it threatens to do the same with WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN.

Captain James T. Kirk was among the best leaders of the STAR TREK universe. He was questioned by his close friends CONSTANTLY. It helped all of them involved; it made Kirk a better leader that he could withstand it and it allowed his allies to not seem like mindless sheep. I just want to see a little more of that here. Especially since the show's writers have foolishly kept Xavier as the main leader figurehead, which reduced Logan to simply following his orders, which any X-Man could do. Even Iceman could lead them if he had Future Xavier telling him what to do. That's a narrative flaw, not a character one for Logan. Hopefully it gets better as the season goes on and is solved by Season 2. I can forgive growing pains in a first season so long as they are improved on.

 

[TheVileOne]

Scott's fight implicates the X-men and mutants like them. Not to mention he endangered the public and innocent civilians. Wolverine goes out of his way to avoid that.

 

[Dread]

Scott's fight implicates the X-men and mutants like them. Not to mention he endangered the public and innocent civilians. Wolverine goes out of his way to avoid that.

We didn't see any ramifications to that Cyclops fight outside, though. No news reports or whatnot against the X-Men. For a TV viewer, the destruction was about as mundane as Superman willing to sacrifice about a dozen city blocks in Metropolis to save Lois & Jimmy from the threat of the week. While I agree those are concerns, the show didn't show that context.

I just don't like seeing Wolverine be the greatest leader ever, when he isn't, or Cyclops have to be the biggest sissy in the universe, which he isn't, as this episode showed. That was my only caveat with the episode. It was a big one, but it didn't undo the rest.

 

[CyclopsSummers]

I like Iceman playing IronMan! I really enjoyed this moment!

 

[Cyma]

I enjoyed this episode. The only thing I disliked was the ending, the one before Jean was shown being alive. Logan and Scott were both out of character. Especially Scott. Of course this being a Wolvie show, something like this shouldn’t be surprising.

Cyclops went on his own. He was trying to get Logan involved, because of the mutual love of Jean, not the rest of the team. Cyclops was perfectly fine with going alone. Emma Frost was the one who convinced the X-Men to go rescue him, because for some reason that makes no human sense based on what we've seen, she genuinely likes Scott.

Quite why is unknown. Scott isn't even aware of her feelings and only sees her as a tool to find Jean. Going on your presumptions of him, when he hasn't been mute, he's been endangering civilians or the rest of his team with his own vendetta. There's nothing attractive about him except maybe his face, which is a pretty shallow reason for someone like Frost to be smitten with him.

Lol. You can’t understand WHY Emma is smitten over Scott? t: Besides his good looks, he’s been utterly loyal and devoted to Jean throughout. Everything he has done was to find her. Even after Emma wasn’t able to track her, he still didn’t lose hope. What woman wouldn’t want to be in Jean’s place? To be genuinely loved and cared for? And know she wouldn't be abandoned or forgotten if she mysteriously disappeared.

So Emma liking Scott, does make human sense, if you see it from the POV of a woman

 

[Dread]

I enjoyed this episode. The only thing I disliked was the ending, the one before Jean was shown being alive. Logan and Scott were both out of character. Especially Scott. Of course this being a Wolvie show, something like this shouldn’t be surprising.

True. Yeah, I'm glad some other people agree with me about there. That last scene was just flawed.

Lol. You can’t understand WHY Emma is smitten over Scott? t: Besides his good looks, he’s been utterly loyal and devoted to Jean throughout. Everything he has done was to find her. Even after Emma wasn’t able to track her, he still didn’t lose hope. What woman wouldn’t want to be in Jean’s place? To be genuinely loved and cared for? And know she wouldn't be abandoned or forgotten if she mysteriously disappeared.

So Emma liking Scott, does make human sense, if you see it from the POV of a woman

Well, to be fair, if I could see things from the POV of a woman, I might date more.

So, Emma is smitten with Cyclops because he is completely devoted to another woman? That makes no logical sense. It isn't like we have seen anything so far that hints that Scott would be willing to put Frost in that role. Besides, wouldn't that defeat the attraction. If Frost is attracted to Scott's devotion to Jean, wouldn't that mean that quality would be diminished if he suddenly went, "oh, well, guess she's dead, time to move on"?

I mentioned this in another topic but I may as well mention it here, that these writers sort of keep touching on the same themes with Scott in terms of relationships between this show and EVOLUTION, which they also worked on. In EVOLUTION, Scott was so distracted with the tension he had with Jean or Taryn or whatnot that he never even seemed to notice that Rogue was seriously crushing on him. They had a lot of chemistry together and I was probably a shipper for both of them when the show was originally airing in 2000-2003. But, of course, both had to go to "default" comic relationships with Jean and Gambit.

In some ways that is going on here in WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN only in less of a high school way (naturally). Part of me is even wondering if the fact that we really never saw much of Jean before she vanished and what little we did see gave the impression that she cared more for Logan than for Scott. The impression is that perhaps Scott loves Jean far more than she loves him. That perhaps while Jean is seemingly "perfect" for Scott and all that, she represents that Idealized Flawless Woman who usually exists as a fleeting mirage for most men, something to strive for but can never be attained. Emma Frost is of course not perfect; she has a malicious, manipulative side and is very arrogant. But she's available and she has interest in Scott; despite all of his faults and flaws she sees something to care about in that messed up mutant, and he doesn't even notice because he's busy chasing someone off camera. It is sort of like how Peppermint Patty was the only girl who saw something to like in that awkward mess Charlie Brown, but he never even acknowledged it because he was busy pining for a "little red haired girl" off panel.

But considering this show's writers can't even properly demonstrate Logan's leadership properly and all the best ways to deal with that from a few angles, I am probably making too much of this.

 

[gkokujin]

so um...where ep 13?

 

[Cyma]

True. Yeah, I'm glad some other people agree with me about there. That last scene was just flawed.

Yup. Surprised so many people are on Logan’s side.

Scott left on his own once and for Jean. The thought of Jean in Sinister’s labs should make anyone horrified enough to search for her. With the exception of one episode in which Logan is haunted by flashes of a screaming little girl, taking off is a habit of his as Rogue has quoted many times. And Logan tells Scott he won’t stand him going off like that? And threatened to kick him out? I was expecting Scott to yell hypocrite, but he seemed physically and emotionally exhausted to

Well, to be fair, if I could see things from the POV of a woman, I might date more.

So, Emma is smitten with Cyclops because he is completely devoted to another woman? That makes no logical sense. It isn't like we have seen anything so far that hints that Scott would be willing to put Frost in that role. Besides, wouldn't that defeat the attraction. If Frost is attracted to Scott's devotion to Jean, wouldn't that mean that quality would be diminished if he suddenly went, "oh, well, guess she's dead, time to move on"?

I mentioned this in another topic but I may as well mention it here, that these writers sort of keep touching on the same themes with Scott in terms of relationships between this show and EVOLUTION, which they also worked on. In EVOLUTION, Scott was so distracted with the tension he had with Jean or Taryn or whatnot that he never even seemed to notice that Rogue was seriously crushing on him. They had a lot of chemistry together and I was probably a shipper for both of them when the show was originally airing in 2000-2003. But, of course, both had to go to "default" comic relationships with Jean and Gambit.

In some ways that is going on here in WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN only in less of a high school way (naturally). Part of me is even wondering if the fact that we really never saw much of Jean before she vanished and what little we did see gave the impression that she cared more for Logan than for Scott. The impression is that perhaps Scott loves Jean far more than she loves him. That perhaps while Jean is seemingly "perfect" for Scott and all that, she represents that Idealized Flawless Woman who usually exists as a fleeting mirage for most men, something to strive for but can never be attained. Emma Frost is of course not perfect; she has a malicious, manipulative side and is very arrogant. But she's available and she has interest in Scott; despite all of his faults and flaws she sees something to care about in that messed up mutant, and he doesn't even notice because he's busy chasing someone off camera. It is sort of like how Peppermint Patty was the only girl who saw something to like in that awkward mess Charlie Brown, but he never even acknowledged it because he was busy pining for a "little red haired girl" off panel.

But considering this show's writers can't even properly demonstrate Logan's leadership properly and all the best ways to deal with that from a few angles, I am probably making too much of this.

You should start dating more! *Ahem* With the extent of his love for Jean, it’s obvious Scott won’t forget her instantly and move on. The process would be slow. And so what if Scott hasn’t given any indication to Emma he’ll let her fill the void in his life? There’s no law which bans people from liking those who don’t like you in the same way or making them like you.

I find it quite natural for Emma to be impressed and awed by his devotion towards the woman he loves and secretly hope she could be that woman. We all do that. See someone’s loving boyfriend or husband and wish we had someone like him or…him It also would be perfectly natural to try and get close to them if they're suddenly single

If it still doesn't make sense then that's ok. Things like relationships, love, crushes usually aren't supposed to

The whole crush thing does sort of remind me of Evo with Scott being clueless. The only difference is that Emma is the exact opposite of Evo Rogue. Let's see how everything plays out.

 

[CyclopsSummers]

Episode 13, 22,23,24,25,26 kick ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Syncos]

Yup. Surprised so many people are on Logan’s side.

Scott left on his own once and for Jean. The thought of Jean in Sinister’s labs should make anyone horrified enough to search for her. With the exception of one episode in which Logan is haunted by flashes of a screaming little girl, taking off is a habit of his as Rogue has quoted many times. And Logan tells Scott he won’t stand him going off like that? And threatened to kick him out? I was expecting Scott to yell hypocrite, but he seemed physically and emotionally exhausted to

I don't know how many people are on Logans side here, more like trying to make sense of the way the show decided to do things. Rationalizing. Which is common.

The way I see it, is Logan doesn't know how to lead. He's put in a position where he's not only uncomfortable, but lacking. So he's acting like leaders he's previously seen before. That's what makes the role reversal between Scott and Logan soo good. Logan's trying to be Scott in order to keep the team together. Scott's just too full of his own issues to give a damn. Which has essentially turned him into Logan.

Sure, Logan's was acting a bit out of character, but he's gotta control a team. He can't do that and act the same way he would normally. I didn't really have an issue with Wolverine's characterization in this episode. The only problem I had was Scott caving so easily.

 

[TheVileOne]

gkokujin:

The show is on a brief hiatus on Canada's YTV because of the holiday season. It returns with new episodes in January.

It premieres on Nicktoons in the US on January 23rd. Good news is I now have Nicktoons.

 

[Dread]

Yup. Surprised so many people are on Logan’s side.

Scott left on his own once and for Jean. The thought of Jean in Sinister’s labs should make anyone horrified enough to search for her. With the exception of one episode in which Logan is haunted by flashes of a screaming little girl, taking off is a habit of his as Rogue has quoted many times. And Logan tells Scott he won’t stand him going off like that? And threatened to kick him out? I was expecting Scott to yell hypocrite, but he seemed physically and emotionally exhausted to

Precisely!

Out of anyone, you would think that Logan would know that one could go on occasional solo adventures, chase after personal quests, and still be an X-Man. It simply looked like a case of Logan doing to Scott what he would NEVER accept if someone did to him. If Xavier or Scott had given Logan such an ultimatum, he certainly wouldn't have sulked in bed and said, "Yes sir" or words to that effect. I mean if the effect was to show Scott caving after 15 minutes of being an optic blast rebel, mission accomplished.

You should start dating more!

Verbose comic book nerds without cars or six pack abs are not in high demand in this economy. Least in NY.

*Ahem* With the extent of his love for Jean, it’s obvious Scott won’t forget her instantly and move on. The process would be slow. And so what if Scott hasn’t given any indication to Emma he’ll let her fill the void in his life? There’s no law which bans people from liking those who don’t like you in the same way or making them like you.

I find it quite natural for Emma to be impressed and awed by his devotion towards the woman he loves and secretly hope she could be that woman. We all do that. See someone’s loving boyfriend or husband and wish we had someone like him or…him It also would be perfectly natural to try and get close to them if they're suddenly single

If it still doesn't make sense then that's ok. Things like relationships, love, crushes usually aren't supposed to

That's true. Human emotions and stuff rarely make logical sense. It just sort of strikes me as odd; if one is attracted to another man due to devotion to another woman, won't that quality seem diminished if he suddenly ended that devotion for some reason?

To her credit, Emma has tried hinting once or twice that Jean may be gone for good, Cyclops usually just refuses to accept that. Considering the world of the X-Men is hardly cut and dry, it isn't completely illogical. Frost is hardly the pro with Cerebro that Xavier or maybe even Jean herself were.

In the comics I believe Frost was attracted to the concept of getting Scott to cut loose since he is usually fairly repressed. In this cartoon Frost at least has sympathy for Scott being, to paraphrase, a "good person" who life has tried to crush and is on the verge of becoming quite bitter in the process. As one of the most fleshed characters beyond Logan and Beast, Frost herself comes off as someone with her own dark past and motives, who is rarely afraid to assert herself or even outright manipulate someone, but she does care about the greater cause. She is the only one on the team who doesn't blindly follow Logan or says nothing when he is being headstrong, even if I feel she is sometimes too subtle (Logan needed a good, "YOU of ALL X-MEN are getting on someone ELSE's case for going on a solo quest for personal reasons without warning!? YOU!?", but whatever; she mildly hinted at it).

Of course, there was a history before the show started. Maybe Frost just likes Scott's darker side now. He's wearing a trench-coat, after all.

The whole crush thing does sort of remind me of Evo with Scott being clueless. The only difference is that Emma is the exact opposite of Evo Rogue. Let's see how everything plays out.

Well, Rogue fell for Scott in EVOLUTION for a completely different reason. Scott often showed her genuine kindness and understanding, even after she joined with Mystique and was one of the Brotherhood for a time. He often was there to defend her. He stood up for his friends and what he believed in, while she saw the Brotherhood be more disloyal and cruel. Scott also wasn't out to exploit her for her power, which nearly everyone else in her life tried doing. Left unspoken was probably the fact that Scott also had a power that effected his everyday life and made relations difficult. In Evolution, Scott was a well rounded character. He came into his own as a leader of the X-Men, and could be awkward when he wasn't an X-Man. He could be stiff but he also knew how to be a teenager, and even would make the occasional joke with Kurt.

Evolution Jean was naturally also more fleshed but had some similarities with Rachael from FRIENDS. She almost never had any romantic interest in Scott unless someone else did. She didn't even admit he was "cute" until Kitty claimed to have a minor crush on him (which went nowhere). She didn't consider a relationship until Scott was dating Taryn. Some fans of the show online saw Evolution Jean as having a philosophy of, "She only wants Scott if and when someone else wants him." I saw it as Jean having been "friends" with Scott for so long that she couldn't see him as anything more easily. But it may have been a bit of both. I read some fansites created by female fans (Evolution was very popular among girls) and many were hardly considerate of Jean.

In WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN, though, Cyclops has usually been a man buried in self pity. Not quite as much as, I don't know, Cloud Strife in FF VII (who women also like for some reason), but very close. He would have abandoned the X-Men to their fate several times if someone didn't either mention Xavier, Jean, or guilt him in some manner. The only person Cyclops has stood up for is Jean, who is off camera and he almost obsesses over. As I mentioned in an earlier post, whether intentional or not, this show has seemed to imply that Cyclops needs Jean a lot more than she needed him. Losing both her and Xavier pretty much left him an empty sad sack of a mutant and little inspires him to fight but those aforementioned two. He never would have gotten off his duff to help save Storm if Kitty hadn't guilted him. Some would say it's within his character and all that, but it made him boring and one-sided at times, and aside for the devotion to a woman, it isn't very attractive. Unless Frost is the type who gets attracted to a guy who seems quiet and sullen.

That all said, I can imagine having him run into Mr. Sinister was no accident by the writers. The two have history. Sinister is especially obsessed with Jean Grey. Perhaps it was a sort of moral of how far Cyclops could go if he didn't get a grip on the present.

It will be either interesting or disappointing seeing what Cyclops does or doesn't do in future episodes. It could be a turning point, or he could fade back into the background after having gotten his episode. We'll see.

Episode 13, 22,23,24,25,26 kick ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will take note. Honestly, this is a show that has improved as it went along, which is healthy and what good shows do.

I don't know how many people are on Logans side here, more like trying to make sense of the way the show decided to do things. Rationalizing. Which is common.

The way I see it, is Logan doesn't know how to lead. He's put in a position where he's not only uncomfortable, but lacking. So he's acting like leaders he's previously seen before. That's what makes the role reversal between Scott and Logan soo good. Logan's trying to be Scott in order to keep the team together. Scott's just too full of his own issues to give a damn. Which has essentially turned him into Logan.

Sure, Logan's was acting a bit out of character, but he's gotta control a team. He can't do that and act the same way he would normally. I didn't really have an issue with Wolverine's characterization in this episode. The only problem I had was Scott caving so easily.

Indeed. Scott did cave too easily. If the scene couldn't work naturally with so little time left, it needed to be rewritten. I am fine with Logan struggling as a leader. He has, even when all he has had to do is obey whatever Future Xavier tells him. That's great character stuff. But we never see the warts of it. No one questions Logan or tells him to his face when he is being a hypocrite or stubborn. Out of anyone, Storm or Cyclops, who have led the team in the past, should.

All the discussion about Scott's romances have got me thinking; it's been a damn long time since we've seen Logan date anyone in a cartoon! He had some past lovers show up in the 90's series, but naturally Evolution had nothing since most of the cast were kids. But now we're with a show where Logan is supposed to be the star. How about some romantic tension somewhere for the Canucklehead? Mariko's been waiting a long time to be animated. There's always been that tension with Storm in the comics; Chris Claremont wrote them making out during the Outback era and of course a weird 3-4 way "triangle" during his last run on Uncanny X-Men some years ago. But considering Mariko could lead for an excuse for a good rendition of Silver Samurai, it may be cool. I mean, hey, this IS Logan's show, and while Sabretooth looked like a joke, he has other enemies. I'd love to see Cyber.

In the 90's series, Wolverine came off as someone whose ex girlfriends were all out to kill him for some reason or another (Lady Deathstrike, Silver Fox), and his jealously of Scott for being Jean's boyfriend and later husband reached near psychotic levels. He spends their wedding day slaughtering clones of Cyclops in the Danger Room IN A TUX!? Talk about not letting go, buddy! It made good drama, though.

Then there was that alternate reality episode where Xavier was blown up by Fritzroy and Logan was married to Mohawk Storm, and he said, "I love ya, darlin'" about every 5 minutes. The less said about that, the better.

Logan isn't the mushy, sentimental type, which is why it might be interesting to watch.

 

[Cyma]

That's true. Human emotions and stuff rarely make logical sense. It just sort of strikes me as odd; if one is attracted to another man due to devotion to another woman, won't that quality seem diminished if he suddenly ended that devotion for some reason?

You’ll drive yourself crazy trying to figure out the female psyche (though you astoundingly figured out Evo Rogue’s)

Just simply think of it this way: When you like something, you usually want to have it at some point in time right? So if Emma likes Scott’s characteristic of devotion towards a woman and in the future she wants a relationship with him, she would be much happier if he would get over Jean and concentrate all that love on her instead of a ghost.

So no, the quality wouldn’t be diminished. And it’s been over a year. Emma hasn’t been able to locate Jean, but she found Professor Xavier. And the condition Professor had been found in, people would obviously assume the worst for Jean. And as seen in this episode(and also in 20) it would be healthier and safer for Scott to try and move on(considering if we didn’t see Jean alive).

Of course, there was a history before the show started. Maybe Frost just likes Scott's darker side now. He's wearing a trench-coat, after all.

Wolverine seemed to be the only who knew Frost. Otherwise the other males wouldn’t be so…..surprised at seeing her, Scott included. So trust me, its Scott’s determination and devotion towards Jean and finding her which quirked Emma’s interest If you noticed, all of his conversations with Emma are about Jean. He’s locked up in the Cerebro room everyday with a half-dressed attractive woman doing what? Using her to search for his girlfriend! I’m certain most men would forget their supposedly dead girlfriend after they’ve seen Emma

In WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN, though, Cyclops has usually been a man buried in self pity. Not quite as much as, I don't know, Cloud Strife in FF VII (who women also like for some reason), but very close. He would have abandoned the X-Men to their fate several times if someone didn't either mention Xavier, Jean, or guilt him in some manner. The only person Cyclops has stood up for is Jean, who is off camera and he almost obsesses over. As I mentioned in an earlier post, whether intentional or not, this show has seemed to imply that Cyclops needs Jean a lot more than she needed him. Losing both her and Xavier pretty much left him an empty sad sack of a mutant and little inspires him to fight but those aforementioned two. He never would have gotten off his duff to help save Storm if Kitty hadn't guilted him. Some would say it's within his character and all that, but it made him boring and one-sided at times, and aside for the devotion to a woman, it isn't very attractive. Unless Frost is the type who gets attracted to a guy who seems quiet and sullen.

Judging by how Emma behaves(and Logan mentioning that she taught her students to bully), it’s like she mostly hung around with people who wouldn’t give a damn about things like feelings or genuinely caring for others other than if it brings financial benefits; the rich and powerful types for whom everything is a business affair. An example of Emma’s type of men I could think of is the billionaire Xanatos in the Gargoyles series. This is how he proposed to his girlfriend, Fox:

Xanatos: Marry me.

Fox: Are you serious?

Xanatos: We're genetically compatible, highly intelligent, and have the same goals. It makes perfect sense to get married.

Fox: True, but what about…..love?

Xanatos: I think we’ll love each other. As much as two people like ourselves are capable at emotion. (He then presents her with a necklace)

Fox: For me?

Xanatos: To seal the bargain

Fox: It’s beautiful. Proposal accepted.


t:t:t:

If those were the kind of men Emma had to deal with, then I’m not surprised she had resorted to secretly watching Scott through the window and gotten snuck up by Wolverine. Scott would be a dove among the crows to her

 

[Dread]

You’ll drive yourself crazy trying to figure out the female psyche (though you astoundingly figured out Evo Rogue’s)

Fair enough. Yeah, guys in contrast are usually simple.

Also, to be fair, figuring out Evolution Rogue was as difficult since she, along with Scott, got the lion's share of focus on X-MEN EVOLUTION until maybe season 4, and even there they got plenty. Especially in Season 1, those two were essentially the stars. Evolution was a show that focused quite a lot on character interaction so it was easier to get into their heads. That isn't to say WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN doesn't have character focus; they do. It just also focuses more on storylines and action than Evolution usually did, especially by 19 episodes in.

Just simply think of it this way: When you like something, you usually want to have it at some point in time right? So if Emma likes Scott’s characteristic of devotion towards a woman and in the future she wants a relationship with him, she would be much happier if he would get over Jean and concentrate all that love on her instead of a ghost.

So no, the quality wouldn’t be diminished. And it’s been over a year. Emma hasn’t been able to locate Jean, but she found Professor Xavier. And the condition Professor had been found in, people would obviously assume the worst for Jean. And as seen in this episode(and also in 20) it would be healthier and safer for Scott to try and move on(considering if we didn’t see Jean alive).

A good point, and one that gets lost in a lot of the episode discussion; that it has been a year since the explosion at the Mansion, and some time, weeks at least, have passed since the pilot started.

As I stated above, the fact that Mr. Sinister was the villain of the episode was likely very intentional. Most of his schtick is being obsessed with Jean Grey; her DNA and his feeling she will lead to his race of super-mutants or whatever. He's obsessed with both her and Scott, but this show outright mentioned the past with Jean, so it fits. It put Scott in direct conflict with someone who was equally obsessed with her, but to the point of villainy. This show doesn't do subtle very well, but it was probably some sort of allegory of not taking the obsession too far that it twists ideals and whatnot. Of course, I always saw Mr. Sinister as someone who had few ideals, even before he became an outright menace, which helped contrast him with Magneto for me. Magneto was all about the cause, it was his methods that made him a villain. Mr. Sinister was just nasty. He wants to make genetically perfect beings just to prove his own genius.

The only problem, as you mentioned, is that the audience knows Jean Grey is alive and well, even if the X-Men don't. I say this is a problem because TV shows, especially cartoons, don't usually do complicated romantic triangles well. Usually shows like to stick with the idea of one defined couple. Scott & Jean, Lois & Clark, Kitty & Lance, etc. Even SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, with all of Peter's flirting with other girls, has made it very clear his "destined love" is Gwen Stacy.

I mention this because the idea of someone's "destined love" being away for a long period of time off camera and pre-pilot and them moving on to someone else hasn't been done too often. Or at least I don't recall it. The upside of it is that it gives Scott a shot an a more unique romance in this show, rather than the last two that ALWAYS end with he and Jean together, which is predictable and stifling. In real life, of course, there is usually little of a notion of "destined love". People break up and move on for all sorts of reasons, both trivial and tragic. It might be very interesting, and dare I say mature, if Scott actually manages some romance with Emma Frost, it is handled in a better, less extreme way than Morrison handled it (Morrison admitted in interviews that he literally wrote Jean as his ex, who he clearly hated) and we get some climax where Scott kind of says, "Y'know, Jean, a part of me may always love you, but I've moved on. In Emma I at least have someone who needs me as much as I need them, rather than someone like you who always has half an eye at Logan." Or words to that effect.

In fact the only downside is that to most viewers, the idea of Scott dating Emma is still foreign, especially since they know via foreshadowing that Jean is alive. It makes Scott seem unintentionally like an impatient cad. I say unintentionally because, yes, it has been a year, and he has exhausted every lead. But viewers can react in illogical ways, too. Like if there was some alternate JLA show where Lois was presumed dead and Superman waits a year searching fruitlessly and then the moment he decides to get something going with Wonder Woman, we learn Lois really is alive. The average viewer will think, "Superman is an impatient cad."

In fact, "Excessive Force" literally ends with Logan sort of shoving down Scott's neck the idea of "moving on" without Jean as, presumably, the rest of them have after being unable to find them. Although I will say it was Scott and no one else who thought of asking Emma to find Jean after they found Xavier. And as soon as that message is hammered at Scott rather forcefully, guess what we learn? Jean's alive and well. Awkward, soap opera style!

Wolverine seemed to be the only who knew Frost. Otherwise the other males wouldn’t be so…..surprised at seeing her, Scott included. So trust me, its Scott’s determination and devotion towards Jean and finding her which quirked Emma’s interest If you noticed, all of his conversations with Emma are about Jean. He’s locked up in the Cerebro room everyday with a half-dressed attractive woman doing what? Using her to search for his girlfriend! I’m certain most men would forget their supposedly dead girlfriend after they’ve seen Emma

Well, Jean was rather cute herself, she just wore more clothes than Emma does.

Yeah, Wolverine seemed to have the most experience with her, as well as the most tension with her from that past. But I sort of took that for granted since Logan is the starring, titular character. OF COURSE he would know things more so than some other X-Men.

I don't know. While it is nice or refreshing for Frost that Scott remains focused on Jean, there were moments where he would get obsessed or too wallowing to get off his duff and help out in missions. After all, Frost would be just as willing to go on missions as Iceman despite not being much of a combatant (she has some moves, but nothing like a lot of the others; telepathy and turning to diamond sort of remove the need). Of course, maybe Scott reminds her of her repressed noble side.

Judging by how Emma behaves(and Logan mentioning that she taught her students to bully), it’s like she mostly hung around with people who wouldn’t give a damn about things like feelings or genuinely caring for others other than if it brings financial benefits; the rich and powerful types for whom everything is a business affair. An example of Emma’s type of men I could think of is the billionaire Xanatos in the Gargoyles series. This is how he proposed to his girlfriend, Fox:

Xanatos: Marry me.

Fox: Are you serious?

Xanatos: We're genetically compatible, highly intelligent, and have the same goals. It makes perfect sense to get married.

Fox: True, but what about…..love?

Xanatos: I think we’ll love each other. As much as two people like ourselves are capable at emotion. (He then presents her with a necklace)

Fox: For me?

Xanatos: To seal the bargain

Fox: It’s beautiful. Proposal accepted.


t:t:t:

If those were the kind of men Emma had to deal with, then I’m not surprised she had resorted to secretly watching Scott through the window and gotten snuck up by Wolverine. Scott would be a dove among the crows to her

Yeah, while the Hellfire Club hasn't been shown yet, that was her crowd before joining the X-Men in the comics and they funded her Hellions, and they're hardly the sentimental type.

I have to admit that while I am an animation fan, I never caught much of GARGOYLES. When all the DVD's are out, I may give it a try. But, yeah, I am aware that Xanatos was a complicated villain.

Yeah, Scott is someone who genuinely cares for others. Or at least Jean. Again, he would have left Storm to get possessed in Africa if Kitty hadn't guilted him. He never would have helped Wolverine with the X-Men if he hadn't found out where Xavier was and that he needed a rescue. I would argue this version of Cyclops has hardly come off as genuinely compassionate as the Evolution one did. Different situations and all that. But in some ways he comes off as the cliche of the comic stereotype; someone who really only cares about Xavier or Jean and anyone else is just a teammate or a means to an end. Without them to prop up his ego, he's nothing. Whedon in AXM once devoted a whole issue to claiming that Xavier pretty much handed Scott the default leadership position to keep him on the team because he had nothing else beyond a typical "point and shoot" power. The one time he had to defend his leadership role, he lost to a powerless Storm (even if Maddie Pryor was telepathically distracting him because she knew he'd just abandon her to be with the X-Men, which he kind of did anyway).

Again, it will be interesting to see where Cyclops goes after this episode. He either will become a more interesting character or will go back into the background now that he's had his "obligatory focus episode".

And I still say considering this is Logan's show, it would be nice to see him in some sort of relationship. All we got in the 90's were a few ex's who wanted to kill him. It would at least give Storm something to do.

 

[Nature's Rising]

I freaking swear, I've spent days with Emma's voice in my head saying "How infantile." with the exact tone and pitch. I swear, I unconsciously blurt it out sometimes in replacement to other derogatory terms. Good god.

 

[Dread]

I freaking swear, I've spent days with Emma's voice in my head saying "How infantile." with the exact tone and pitch. I swear, I unconsciously blurt it out sometimes in replacement to other derogatory terms. Good god.

Yes, it was delivered quite well.

 

[TheVileOne]

Gargoyles won't be out completely on DVD anytime soon.

Disney kind of put it off since the earlier episodes of the show didn't sell very well on DVD.

 

[Dread]

And then big companies wonder why the bootleg market continues to thrive.

 

[Superhero 101]

wow sinister looks pretty cool funny how its the Lex Luthor Voice i was like "that voice sounds familiar."