Official Young Avengers Discussion Thread

[Colossal Spoons]

Hot damn! Wiccan finally cast a non-verbal spell last week. Glad that dumb crutch is gone; even though he said it helps him focus.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I like his mantra spells. They're a nice limit on him. Dude's already supposedly more powerful than most other magic users as it is. Take off the few limits he has--his inexperience, his inability to cast without repeating the words, etc.--and you may as well just knock off Dr. Strange and Dr. Voodoo and make Billy the Sorcerer Supreme.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

yeah i think his verbal stuff actually makes him unique. almost like a catch phrase... or something. i like it

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Quicksilver's point was valid though. There's no surprise when he announces what he's going to do to you. What happens when he's fighting a quick opponent? He needs to learn spells like Strange, Voodoo, etc if he has to verbalize something.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I agree. Someone should totally be teaching him how to actually use magic rather than just make s*** happen during bouts of panic.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Strange offered to train him and nothing ever happened. If he was smart, he'd sit in on Voodoo's SS training. He prob knows more than him anyway

 

[TheCorpulent1]

If only Agatha Harkness were still around...

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Didn't you hear, Doom's marrying her next month.

 

[chamber-music]

I'm liking blood thirst savage Wolverine all stab happy.

This Wonderman having Sentry level strength is a new one to me.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Didn't you hear, Doom's marrying her next month.

What, now?

 

[Colossal Spoons]

J/k, he's only marrying Wanda

 

[Colossal Spoons]

I'm liking blood thirst savage Wolverine all stab happy.

This Wonderman having Sentry level strength is a new one to me.

All the Avengers are being written horribly in this book. They're either *****ebags or murderers who have no prob killing kids. I mean I love killing and all but it's no fun when everybody is on board lol.

I call BS on Simon being anywhere near as strong as Sentry

 

[TheCorpulent1]

J/k, he's only marrying Wanda

Oh, fun, so she's still crazy.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Oh, fun, so she's still crazy.

Not so much crazy, but suffering from super-amnesia or most likely brainwashing by Mr. Von Doom

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's Dr. Von Doom. He didn't get kicked out of college for blowing s*** up just to be called "Mr."

 

[NightBeetle]

Heinberg Continues the "Crusade"

CBR News: Allan, so far the search for the Scarlet Witch has generated some extreme emotions. Wanda’s family members want to rescue her. Most of her friends on the Avengers want to take her into custody and try to help her deal with her mental problems. Yet there are few Avengers that view her as too dangerous to help. What is it about Wanda that you think generates such powerful emotions? Is it simply the nature of her powers or is there something about her personality as well?

Allan Heinberg: I think Wanda's backstory is the key to the character and a large part of her appeal. After all, she and Quicksilver started out in the Marvel Universe as terrorists -- disciples of Magneto. But in the end, they had the moral fiber -- and the compassion -- not only to leave Magneto, but to prove themselves as Avengers. That transformation -- the idea that two villains from the X-Universe could not only become heroes, but that they could do so in a completely different arena of the Marvel Universe was groundbreaking at the time. Marvel Comics basically revolutionized comic book storytelling by essentially telling readers that their characters can -- and will -- change. Since then, the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver have continuously and openly wrestled with the darker parts of their natures even as they strive to obey their nobler instincts. Theirs is a very human, very relatable and very compelling struggle.

The big revelation in “The Children’s Crusade” #2 was Doctor Doom's involvement and the revelation in #3 that Doom also has some strong feelings about Wanda, and in fact intends to marry her. What's it like writing Doctor Doom? What made you want to include him in this story? Is Doom only marrying Wanda because of the power he'll gain or do you think there's part of his personality that might actually care for her?

I have really enjoyed exploring the possibility of Doom in love. Especially the idea of his having fallen in love with someone who is not only his enemy, but a woman who is inarguably more powerful than he is. Love can be enormously tricky even under the best circumstances, but how is Doom going to be able to handle being subordinate to his wife? I think everyone involved in the story is questioning Doom's motives, including Doom himself.

Magneto has worked very hard to turn over a new leaf in the pages of “Uncanny X-Men” and it seems like in this series he's being confronted by a lot of his past misdeeds, especially in the way he raised his children. What's his emotional state going into #4? How important is it for him to find Wanda, and how important is it for him to reconnect with Quicksilver who clearly hates him?

Magneto is absolutely determined to rescue his daughter -- and his grandson -- at all costs. However, like Doom, Magneto's motives are always going to be questionable. Does Magneto want to find Wanda for her sake or for his own? Does he want to mend fences with her and make up for his own misdeeds? Or does he want to possess and control her? Or, more realistically, is it a bit of both? The same is true of Magneto's attitude about Quicksilver. Magneto recognizes that, in addition to restoring familial peace, any kind of alliance he forges with Pietro -- even a temporary one -- will only serve him in the future.

One character who seems to be profoundly impacted by Wanda's reemergence is Wolverine. He seems very angry and it's almost like he's acting the way he was when he first joined the X-Men; making snarky comments towards anyone who didn't agree with him. Why do you think he's acting this way? Is Wolverine simply upset over what Wanda's powers did to mutantkind or is there something more going on?

Wolverine's attitude toward the Wanda situation was actually established in "House of M" #1. After "Avengers: Disassembled," when the Avengers and the X-Men were debating what to do about Wanda, Wolverine came down very clearly on the side of eliminating her altogether. And that was before she stole his life and his memories and transported him to the World of M. After which, of course, she wiped out an entire species. I do think he's angry. I think he's absolutely haunted by what Wanda did to him -- and by what Wanda did to all of mutantkind -- but in the end, I think he thinks he's being pragmatic.

Brian Bendis hinted that Wonder Man was in direct opposition to the Avengers reforming in early issues of the current “Avengers” series. In “The Children’s Crusade” #3 you brought Wonder Man into the story and definitely implied that Simon was not happy to be in the presence of the Avengers. What can you tell us about Simon's motivation and role in future issues? How does he feel about looking for a woman who he's had a very complex and complicated relationship with?

As longtime Avengers fans know, Simon has been devoted to Wanda for many years, and now he owes his very existence to her. I don't think there's anything Simon wouldn't do for Wanda at this point, including having to deal with the Avengers, if need be.

One of the reasons why Wonder Man's relationship was so complicated with the Scarlet Witch was because of the Vision. The Vision on the Young Avengers is not exactly the Vision of old, but we have to wonder what does he make of all of this? He's been quiet, but Jim Cheung's facial expressions for the character seem to suggest that there's a lot on the new Vision's mind.

Because "Avengers: The Children's Crusade" is not strictly a Young Avengers book -- and because it has such a large cast of characters -- the Young Avengers (apart from Wiccan, whose story it is) will be taking turns in the narrative spotlight. The Vision's role in the story grows with every issue, and his relationship to the Scarlet Witch will definitely be addressed.

"The Children's Crusade" is a nine issue miniseries and you're about to launch #4, which would seem like it would be the start of the second act. In terms of plot and themes, what is Act Two of “The Children's Crusade" about?

For me, Act One was about Wiccan's (and the Young Avengers') idealism and good intentions with regard to finding the Scarlet Witch. Act Two is about what happens when their good intentions come up against the very complicated reality of the situation. Act Three is about their struggle to find a way to live with -- and take responsibility for -- the devastating consequences of their actions.

In the first three issues you introduced a lot of the major players in this story. As the story moves forward, can we expect appearances by any surprise heroes or villains? Or is the cast of the story all pretty much on the table?

At this point in the story we've met all the principal players, but there are many, many more cameos and surprise appearances in store.

How important an element is setting in this next phase of the story? It seems like all roads lead to Latveria?

We are going to be in Latveria for the next little while, but the principal setting changes rather dramatically after that.

The end of “The Children's Crusade” is still a ways off, but I imagine it's very much on your mind. Can you hint at what kind of impact this story will have on the Avengers and the Young Avengers?

Because this story was built on the incredible foundation Brian Michael Bendis created in "Avengers: Disassembled" and "House of M" (as well as its aftermath, "Decimation"), the outcome of "Avengers: The Children's Crusade" will have a profound and lasting impact on the future of the Avengers, the Young Avengers and the X-Men.

 

[Dread]

The problem is...WHY would Dr. Doom fall in love with Wanda? They barely met 5 times in over 40 years. I mean I think he wanted Storm at one point, but everyone wants to make her their queen...just ask Chris Claremont. I can understand Doom being attracted to manipulating her power to shape the world, like Quicksilver did, but I don't quite buy love as the reason he hasn't utilized her to that end, honestly. Doom loves only two things; his mother, and himself. I certainly don't trust the "GREY'S ANATOMY" guy to try to tell a legitimate Doom love story.

I always am amazed at how thrilled comic book companies are to "score" writers who write for network TV. Network TV shows often have some of the worst writing outside of men's bathroom walls. A computer program could write a typical episode of a CSI spin off. Joss Whedon's inability to last on network TV long these days is precisely because he is too clever for them. He'd be advised to launch his next show on cable. The audience would be smaller, but it might actually get a second season (look how long FARSCAPE lasted, and that seemed to have an episodic budget in the five digits). Virtually every halfway intelligent TV show of the last half decade was launched on cable, not network TV. I mean, even "LOST" was in many ways more confusing then good.

I digress. The art looks very lovely. But to be honest, while AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE is by no means a BAD comic, it isn't a terribly exceptional one. Heinberg does a better job explaining Wolverine's motivation in an interview than he does in the story itself, which is trademark Bendis Bad Writing Syndrome (BBWS). His treatment of some characters, especially the ones he didn't co-create, sometimes borders on decent to "WTF" level emotional flips. The story has had moments of narrative brilliance wrapped around a bun of mediocrity or shoddy characterization, topped with perfectly good art. It's not worth 9 issues over 18 months at $4 a pop, in all honesty. Not unless the end game is so much better than the build up, and quite frankly, very few writers at Marvel have any idea of the difference between an ending and an advertisement for another comic. Or if they do, their editors do not.

 

[NightBeetle]

Avengers: The Children's Crusade #4 Preview

 

[Dread]

I totally don't buy that Dr. Doom just wants to marry Wanda because he loves her. If he does, you can add Heinberg to the pile of writers who have no clue how to write Doom. He loves nothing but himself, his dead mother, and power. His feelings for Reed are at best respect, not any fondness.

On the other hand, it totally makes sense that Doom would marry Wanda to hopefully exploit her power, even if he has taken a damn long time to try.

The dialogue is snippy, and at least the preview cuts off before a major incident.

Ironically, Doom's defeat of Wiccan is perhaps his first victory over any named opponent in about four years.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Issue #4 was pretty good. The Avengers were bloodthirsty nuisances as usual and we even got an Iron Lad appearance at the end. I'm sure there's an illusion or 2 at work here though.

 

[Aesop Rocks]

The Avengers as in Wolverine and Ms. Marvel?

 

[runawayboulder]

More Wolverine than anybody else.

 

[Aesop Rocks]

Yeah, I just read it. lol

Fantastic issue!

 

[Aesop Rocks]

He loves nothing but himself, his dead mother, and power.

Not calling you wrong or anything, but Doom did say that Wanda reminded him of his mother a lot, so maybe he's marrying her on a 50/50 deal. Because of his mommy issues and because he wants her power.

 

[Dread]

Not calling you wrong or anything, but Doom did say that Wanda reminded him of his mother a lot, so maybe he's marrying her on a 50/50 deal. Because of his mommy issues and because he wants her power.

In the story, Doom merely mentioned that his mother was into magic to try to relate to Wiccan and get him to agree to demands to not cause more of a fuss for his new bride. Doom likely would have slew the boy if Wanda wasn't so concerned, and stunned from his ruthless side.

It is interesting that these days, the fact that Dr. Doom is a scientist whose genius is second only to Reed Richards (or about even, depending on who you ask) is completely forgotten aside for his robots and armor, and he's just known as a sorcerer these days. Even though magic spells tend to blow up in his face, literally, when he tries some of them.

It isn't like Doom wouldn't try to wed some woman for her power; I believe he was once into Storm because of that (and because EVERYONE wants to make Storm their queen, according to countless Chris Claremont stories). If Doom wants to try to "reawaken" Wanda's power when he feels it is best or figures out how, that's fine and perfectly within Doom. But to convince me that Doom has genuinely fallen for her despite who she was and who he is, Heinberg is going to have to come up with a lot more than Doom claiming even he is stunned. Love, like insanity, can sometimes be used as shorthand to get characters to do things out of character without needing to explain it one whit, as in, "oh, he's crazy" or "oh, he's in love". That doesn't cut it outside of prime time TV.

Imagine if someone wrote a story in which Superman falls in love with Catwoman and all he's said about it is, "I'm just as surprised as you are" and would just continue on. That's not professional writing. That's mediocre fan-fiction, and I don't pay $4 for that. Many writers feel that acknowledging in-story how absurd a plot point is makes it acceptable. No, it doesn't. You have to actually write it so it isn't absurd.

May as well repost my review, with spoilers:

AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE #4: While not as big seller now as it was back in the heyday of 2005, what is essentially YOUNG AVENGERS SEASON TWO chugs along at it's bi-monthly pace. To give credit to the creative team of Allen Heinberg and Jim Cheung, while it took nearly five years to get this project published, at least they've maintained their bi-monthly schedule (a feat that the ASTONISHING books cannot claim). While things are better than the second issue (which was the series' low point thus far), this remains a frustrating series. There are many things to like about it. The artwork by Cheung, alongside Mark Morales' inks and Justin Ponsor's great colors, is very strong (so long as you don't mind everyone having the same face, a la' Mark Bagley). Cheung seems to take extra relish with battles and drawing Dr. Doom himself. Allen Heinberg's issues always have memorable moments and some amusing or interesting conversations, or lines. The dilemma is that for every memorable moment, there is another moment that is awkward or mediocre.

Spoiler

For every character who is handled well (Wiccan), there are those written jaw-droppingly terrible (Wolverine). Virtually every adult in this story is portrayed as some sort of fanatic or otherwise barely reasonable figure aside for the teenage heroes, who are being shuffled amongst the plot, and sympathetic villains like Magneto and Doom. The angle, for those who don't mind spoilers, is that after HOUSE OF M, Wanda (formerly the Scarlet Witch) lost her memories along with her powers when she de-powered over 90% of the world's mutant population. Dr. Doom found her and apparently fell in genuine love of her, setting out to woo and attempt to wed her, while planting a robotic duplicate in Transia to fool anyone looking for her (such as Hawkeye). Wiccan and Speed of the Young Avengers are seemingly the lost spirits of her dead twins, somehow reborn into new bodies (akin to reincarnation). They are seeking her out, while the Avengers still consider her a reality warping threat who should be put down - Wolverine especially. The ol' Canucklehead comes off about as simplistic as Darth Maul within this issue, only without any of the charisma. He's out to not only kill Wanda in revenge for M-Day, but he relishes doing so. He says things like, "If I was as big a threat as you, I'd expect you to do the same thing to me" - has ANY superhero gotten as many innocent women or men killed as Wolverine? How many people across the past 100-150 years have murdered so many people as Wolverine, sometimes for no better reason than a temper? He helped create some maniacs, like Nuke, in the past. Yet if a task force showed up with a mountain of evidence on why Wolverine needs to be put down (least of all because he is frequently brainwashed or possessed by Satan and turns on his allies), Wolverine would fight them to the death and probably only argue if an ally stole a kill from him. Rather than blame maniacs like Stryker or Selene or Bastion, he blames Wanda. Like just about everything the Avengers do, it degenerates into a mindless brawl, with a character familiar to Young Avengers fans popping up in the cliffhanger. I thought Iron Lad killed Kang and then went back to time so he could eventually become Kang and the time-line would remain intact (even if Kang's time-line is such a mess he can literally meet and fight three versions of himself).

Despite being part of the famed "family", and despite being the Young Avenger most in need of focus, Speed is falling by the wayside along with the rest of his team in service to the plot. Not only is Wiccan the star, he overshadows everyone; if one is a fan of his, terrific. Eli Bradly/Patriot gets in an obligatory two lines of whining, Kate Bishop/Hawkeye gets in her obligatory lines of "proving she is a more assertive leader than Eli is", and Quicksilver still doesn't trust Magneto. I don't know if Vision or Stature have said anything since issue two. After making a big deal of heading off to find Wanda alone last issue, Wonder Man quickly aligns with the rest of the (New) Avengers (circa 2006) and shifts into the background, just ahead of Luke Cage. The story attempts to sell the reader on the idea that Dr. Doom in no way is seeking to exploit Wanda for her power one day, and has genuinely fallen in love with her. "Even I find it difficult to believe," Doom says at one point; if not even HE can buy it, what hope is there for the rest of us? Dr. Doom hasn't loved or cared for anyone genuinely since his mother went to Hell. Reed Richards was his best friend, and he's literally used the man's daughter as a magical familiar. Heinberg is going to have to do better to convince me that Doom has fallen in love with Wanda and make it feel any more genuine than sub par fan fiction (where characters are paired up for no reason or explanation all the time).

Wanda Maximoff, since 2004, has become a very damaged character. Despite being an Avenger and long time heroine longer than she was anything else, she was chosen to suddenly go crazy over a trauma she got over in the 1990's and provide the spark for the first line-wide event of Joe Quesada's tenure as editor in chief - DISASSEMBLED. She proved to be a walking, ranting plot device to break up the Avengers (so they could be reassembled into a new roster) and eliminate what Joe Quesada felt were too many mutant characters (which he had no problem with from 2001-2004 when Grant Morrison wrote X-MEN and was landing Top 10 sales on it). Amnesia is a common method for having a damaged, formerly fanatical character return and seem pure and innocent, and ripe for redemption. It is almost as if a prime TV writer were utilizing every over done cliché possible - didn't Heinberg write "GREY'S ANATOMY"? Just like any cheap soap, nothing sparks a dangerous new storyline for a female character quite like a wedding. What next; will Dr. Doom's father return from a car accident? Will the camera show some extreme close ups for an awkward period of time? At any rate, AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE remains neither brilliant nor horrific, a frustrating sort of "just about average". At best, as the second half is told this year, things pick up.

When Wiccan summarizes the story where Wanda lost the twins, he either wasn't aware of the full reasoning, or Heinberg wasn't. Master Pandemonium didn't simply absorb the twins' souls to rebuild Mephisto. He said they were fragments of Mephisto's soul that Wanda had unconsciously transformed into babies via her chaos magic because she wanted to have Vision's kids, and not even synthesoids have sperm. That they were NEVER "real". That's a bit different from what Wiccan said. Apparently they were "real" and were reincarnated into new lives somehow.

This series has shown me nothing in the writing department that justifies Marvel waiting five years for this. Which is a shame, because the art is out of the park. A few exciting parts of an otherwise average parade aren't an effective story.

At the very least, this story reminds people that Mephisto was interested in destroying families long before he wanted Spider-Man's marriage.