Official Young Avengers Discussion Thread

[TheCorpulent1]

This series makes me wish someone would just kill Wolverine already. More than anything else, I want to see someone break Wolverine's face in half and toss him into the sun. What a giant, raging *****ebag.

 

[runawayboulder]

Wolverine's actions would make sense if this mini was released when it was supposed to.......back in 07. Because of that, I can never take this book seriously.

 

[Dread]

This series makes me wish someone would just kill Wolverine already. More than anything else, I want to see someone break Wolverine's face in half and toss him into the sun. What a giant, raging *****ebag.

Wolverine's actions would make sense if this mini was released when it was supposed to.......back in 07. Because of that, I can never take this book seriously.

At best, I think Wolverine is being written a bit out of character. Or if he is, he's simply "a giant, raging *****e bag" as Corp said.

My own thoughts on him from this issue:

[The] Avengers still consider her [Wanda] a reality warping threat who should be put down - Wolverine especially. The ol' Canucklehead comes off about as simplistic as Darth Maul within this issue, only without any of the charisma. He's out to not only kill Wanda in revenge for M-Day, but he relishes doing so. He says things like, "If I was as big a threat as you, I'd expect you to do the same thing to me" - has ANY superhero gotten as many innocent women or men killed as Wolverine? How many people across the past 100-150 years have murdered so many people as Wolverine, sometimes for no better reason than a temper? He helped create some maniacs, like Nuke, in the past. Yet if a task force showed up with a mountain of evidence on why Wolverine needs to be put down (least of all because he is frequently brainwashed or possessed by Satan and turns on his allies), Wolverine would fight them to the death and probably only argue if an ally stole a kill from him. Rather than blame maniacs like Stryker or Selene or Bastion, he blames Wanda.

Part of me has always wondered if a lot of this is Logan venting frustration at finding out his life wasn't pretty. When Wanda, who was psychologically traumatized, was manipulated by Pietro into creating HOUSE OF M, she did so by granting many heroes, including the X-Men and Spider-Man, their "hearts desires". In the process, Wolverine regained all of his lost memories. This made him the one who knew HOM was a sham first, but it also allowed him to learn that, among other things, he'd been a giant jackass for a good long time before Weapon X. Least of all finding out that he had an abandoned son, Daken, who has become a bigger jackass. For a guy who has always resented being turned into a weapon, he didn't complain too much when Cyclops recommended X-23 for his "kill squad" X-Force, and kept her around even after Cyclops wanted them to disband. At any rate, the general gist of a lot of his recent revelations was that before WEAPON X blanked his memories, Logan was not a particularly nice guy. It has been implied that he'd likely killed people with little quarrel with him just because they were in his way, or he was angry. He was personally responsible for turning Frank Simpson into the maniac who would one day become Nuke (even carving the U.S. flag into his face). He once tried to kill Cap & Bucky during WWII (which neither of them seem to recall now), although he later helped Cap during the same war. None of this was Wanda's fault; she was just the one who allowed Logan to finally remember it all. He's no Sabretooth, but sometimes the lines between them blur, now more than in the 80's or 90's thanks to those ORIGINS "revelations".

In recent years, I have detected a pattern of Wolverine wanting to furiously punish other people for their sins, while expecting endless excuses for his own. While he will hardly admit to being a saint, I doubt he'd simply allow someone with a perfectly morally justified reason to end him. Given how many women he's been involved with who have died, for all we know he could have some very angry grandchildren or relatives out there somewhere. Do the surviving Slingers even know he was the guy who decapitated Hornet? He was brainwashed for that by Gorgon, but as I said, this happens fairly often - almost as often as Hulk on a rampage. Right now, his body is being possessed by Satan and he is on another rampage.

If anything, Logan should be angrier at Pietro; he was the one who set HOM into motion by exploiting Wanda. Or even Magneto; his thrashing of Pietro at the end is what motivated Wanda to erase the x-gene. To be fair, Wolverine's made his contempt of Magneto apparent here, and I can buy it. Although it is poorly timed, as Magneto has been an ally of Utopia a lot lately (and saved Kitty Pryde when no one else could). While Wanda was responsible for the depowering, she wasn't responsible for the actions of others. If he is angry at all the depowered cadets who died, maybe the X-Men shouldn't have shipped them all off on buses the moment their powers were gone, where they could be blown up. Maybe Cyclops should try to embrace assistance from other heroes, not throwing the medal of honor into the ocean 5 minutes after Steve Rogers helps him get it. Maybe Wolverine should use his Avengers membership for more than an opportunity to stab extra people.

I do agree, though, that the timing for the script is not good. Some of it has been edited to relate to post-SIEGE, but the rest is obviously 2006-2007 fare.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Wolverine's actions would make sense if this mini was released when it was supposed to.......back in 07. Because of that, I can never take this book seriously.

I can still understand his hatred for Wanda. But I still think he's being written as a 1-dimensional stabbing machine in this book.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, the 1-dimensionality is the main thing that's pissing me off. If Wolverine would just stop and be like, "Look, Wanda's near and dear to me too, but we've gotta think of the bigger picture here," I might at least be able to tolerate him. But instead, every single page with him is just, "BLAAARGH, gotta kill Wanda, gotta kill Wanda!! Wiccan has similar powers? BLAAAARGH, gotta kill Wiccan too!" It's ridiculous.

 

[runawayboulder]

I can still understand his hatred for Wanda. But I still think he's being written as a 1-dimensional stabbing machine in this book.

I can't. I know their paths haven't crossed much but she's not just Magneto's daughter. She is also one of the greatest Avengers that ever lived. She's served as team field leader a few times. Logan is no dummy, he's gotta be aware that she's done more good than bad in her life. A lot of the bad is because of an unstable mental state. He, of all people should no what that's like......

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Logan apparently adopts a mentality that a few bad deeds, if bad enough, override all the good deeds in your life.

Which, when you think about it, makes you wonder why he hasn't killed himself yet. Dude's more of a bastard than virtually anyone else who claims to be a hero.

 

[chamber-music]

I actully like crazy stabby wolverine simply because I find his overzealous bloodthirst amusing. He almost makes Ultimate Captain America seem like a pleasant guy.

Also am I the only one who wants Amadaeus Cho to join the Young Avengers. They could use a big brain on the team (vision don't count because his an andriod)

 

[Colossal Spoons]

I can't. I know their paths haven't crossed much but she's not just Magneto's daughter. She is also one of the greatest Avengers that ever lived. She's served as team field leader a few times. Logan is no dummy, he's gotta be aware that she's done more good than bad in her life. A lot of the bad is because of an unstable mental state. He, of all people should no what that's like......

I didn't just mean Logan's grudge against her. I could see why any mutant who survived Decimation would wanna strangle her on-sight. Kinda hard to forgive and forget what she did due to her mental instability.

 

[Dread]

I can still understand his hatred for Wanda. But I still think he's being written as a 1-dimensional stabbing machine in this book.

Agreed.

Yeah, the 1-dimensionality is the main thing that's pissing me off. If Wolverine would just stop and be like, "Look, Wanda's near and dear to me too, but we've gotta think of the bigger picture here," I might at least be able to tolerate him. But instead, every single page with him is just, "BLAAARGH, gotta kill Wanda, gotta kill Wanda!! Wiccan has similar powers? BLAAAARGH, gotta kill Wiccan too!" It's ridiculous.

It's actually a little more than that; Wolverine doesn't just want to kill Wanda, he gives every impression that he'll enjoy it. In prior issues, he claimed he'd kill (and enjoy killing) Wiccan if he got in his way, too. This is the guy Iron Man HAD to make an Avenger? This is the guy Cyclops allows to mentor children? No wonder the mutant race is ****ed up.

Oh, I get it. Logan's only nice if they're young girls, preferably Asian.

Logan apparently adopts a mentality that a few bad deeds, if bad enough, override all the good deeds in your life.

Which, when you think about it, makes you wonder why he hasn't killed himself yet. Dude's more of a bastard than virtually anyone else who claims to be a hero.

If he does operate under that mentality, then for half his earlier life he's done more than a few "bad deeds". As a character he wasn't always that way, but the endless nasty revelations about his past, coupled with Romulus retcons as well as the abandonment of his "wanting to control his rage" demeanor for "stab at all costs" acts of the last decade or so have taken their toll on him. Over exposure and popularity were ruining him as a character nine years ago, and I think things have gotten worse. If anyone needs to take a break for 3-4 years like Thor, it may be him.

I didn't just mean Logan's grudge against her. I could see why any mutant who survived Decimation would wanna strangle her on-sight. Kinda hard to forgive and forget what she did due to her mental instability.

Although if she got her powers and her stability back, she could end M-Day in a heartbeat. Hard to do that if she's dead. I mean, who else do you trust to try to fix it? High Evolutionary (HE)? Apocalypse? Dark Beast? Mr. Sinister? HE is probably the best of that lot, and even he's often an antagonist.

In the "Marvel editors don't take things to conclusions" department, during CIVIL WAR and after during THE INITIATIVE, Tony Stark used Skrull-Pym's "genomech payload", basically nanobots, to give humans super-powers for a year. They assembled a team of them in California and called them THE ORDER, which was one of Matt Fraction's first big solo works at Marvel. One of the Order was Mulholland Black, who was a mutant depowered on M-Day. The "genomech payload" restored her powers, or at least granted her abilities that were very similar. If this worked on one depowered mutant, why not more? While Skrull-Pym is gone, surely Reed and/or Stark kept notes or could find his. Why not see if this technique could be applied to other depowered mutants? Oh, right, we can't take things to logical conclusions. Sorry.

To be fair, Wolverine is the type of guy who found out that the Agents Of Atlas weren't bad guys during an X-Men adventure, and declined to tell his Avengers team mates when they ran into them for no good reason besides, "It didn't come up."

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Also am I the only one who wants Amadaeus Cho to join the Young Avengers. They could use a big brain on the team (vision don't count because his an andriod)

Organicist.

I'd much rather see Cho, a few of the Young Avengers, and some other young heroes form a new New Warriors team. The Young Avengers, however you slice it, are always gonna be derivative of the Avengers. It's right there in their name. I think the New Warriors would be a great banner to turn around after Civil War and that random-ass reboot and turn into Marvel's answer the Teen Titans.

 

[Dread]

Organicist.

I'd much rather see Cho, a few of the Young Avengers, and some other young heroes form a new New Warriors team. The Young Avengers, however you slice it, are always gonna be derivative of the Avengers. It's right there in their name. I think the New Warriors would be a great banner to turn around after Civil War and that random-ass reboot and turn into Marvel's answer the Teen Titans.

I wouldn't mind that either, but the market would not support it. YOUNG ALLIES was very close to being a spiritual ancestor to NEW WARRIORS and it was dead by issue six. AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE had so many former Warriors that it may as well have been a NW comic in all but name, and it was relaunched into AVENGERS ACADEMY, which in terms of sales will itself struggle to see a 13th issue (issue 12 has been confirmed, at least).

Besides, Amadeus, Stature, and Vision Jr. were all official Avengers during the Slott run on Mighty. Why a junior team?

 

[Specter313]

Logan apparently adopts a mentality that a few bad deeds, if bad enough, override all the good deeds in your life.

Which, when you think about it, makes you wonder why he hasn't killed himself yet. Dude's more of a bastard than virtually anyone else who claims to be a hero.

Exactly. I mean, I know it's a running plot point that he rightly accepts all the bad he's done in the past and why he'd rather he get his hands dirty again rather than let someone else fall down his old path, but the way he's written here, by his logic, he should be ex-communicated from the superhero community altogether.

 

[Specter313]

I wouldn't mind that either, but the market would not support it. YOUNG ALLIES was very close to being a spiritual ancestor to NEW WARRIORS and it was dead by issue six. AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE had so many former Warriors that it may as well have been a NW comic in all but name, and it was relaunched into AVENGERS ACADEMY, which in terms of sales will itself struggle to see a 13th issue (issue 12 has been confirmed, at least).

Besides, Amadeus, Stature, and Vision Jr. were all official Avengers during the Slott run on Mighty. Why a junior team?

Heck, if the sales were what I remember, it was dead by issue 1. I'd love to see them do more with the majority of the young teams out there. I'd especially like to see them dig up the Loners again. And of course, the Runaways are still jumping around in limbo.

 

[Dread]

Exactly. I mean, I know it's a running plot point that he rightly accepts all the bad he's done in the past and why he'd rather he get his hands dirty again rather than let someone else fall down his old path, but the way he's written here, by his logic, he should be ex-communicated from the superhero community altogether.

The funny thing? Wolverine being so readily accepted by "the superhero community" is all very recent. During the 90's and even into the start of the Joe Q era, not all superheroes were fond with Wolverine. Most, such as Spider-Man or Capt. America, or even Daredevil, were disturbed that he often killed opponents. They saw him as not too many steps removed from Punisher. And half the time Wolverine didn't even get along with Punisher, or Ghost Rider, or other lethal vigilantes of the time. Now? The lethal vigilantes are probably the only heroes still adversarial with Logan. Spider-Man shares beers with him now. The rest of the Avengers accept him. Even Rogers seems to have forgotten during his year of "death" that he initially opposed having him be an Avenger. He's merrily showing up for Avengers BBQ's along with Jarvis and D-Man.

It's sort of like in the SPIDER-MAN or SHREK film universes, where the characters in a fictional universe decide to react to a figure in a way similar to how fans in real life do even when it makes no sense in terms of the narrative and in fact robs some appeal from the stories, eliminates conflict or opinion clashes. At what point did the fact that Wolverine shamelessly killed every enemy he faced become acceptable to the rest of the heroes? The same ones that condemned Hulk to space once? Anyone who doesn't think Wolverine is equally dangerous has never seen ENEMY OF THE STATE. Mark Millar seems to believe he could take the entire Marvel Universe, only unlike the Punisher, he sometimes does it in continuity.

Namor, for all his hot-headedness, once accepted punishment for his crimes against humanity. He walked into the electric chair and took it's volts. It didn't do a damn thing, but the gesture was nice. I doubt we'd ever see Logan do the same. But it's nice that he can be self righteous with other mutants.

Heck, if the sales were what I remember, it was dead by issue 1. I'd love to see them do more with the majority of the young teams out there. I'd especially like to see them dig up the Loners again. And of course, the Runaways are still jumping around in limbo.

The sales for YOUNG ALLIES were not healthy in it's debut, but it sold within the Top 100. After that, though, things got ugly. It at least made it to issue six, which some launches didn't. SPIDER-GIRL's debut isn't much healthier.

The Runaways have probably gotten the biggest and longest push as a new franchise of young heroes than anything else in Marvel. They got three volumes and some 4-5 years worth of stories. The rest just sort of enter limbo and bounce around as guest characters. The problem is fans and retailers know very well these newer characters are not very important and for all of Marvel's spin and bluster, they will cancel their titles and abandon them to rot at the first sign of adversity, at least 1 out of every 5 times. This isn't DC where it seems every launch makes it about 2 years. The era where any Marvel ongoing limped a year has been dead since about 2008.

There's actually a lot of potential in many of Marvel's newer, younger characters. The problem is nothing they do gets them to sell, or seem important (which would allow them to sell). Not even slapping Bendis on it may help; he couldn't make SPIDER-WOMAN sell, and SCARLET is hardly making KICK ASS 2 break a sweat.

 

[chamber-music]

Organicist.

I'd much rather see Cho, a few of the Young Avengers, and some other young heroes form a new New Warriors team. The Young Avengers, however you slice it, are always gonna be derivative of the Avengers. It's right there in their name. I think the New Warriors would be a great banner to turn around after Civil War and that random-ass reboot and turn into Marvel's answer the Teen Titans.

That would be cool but the Avengers brand is what sells so sticking avengers name on stuff is what they are doing until they decide that their are too many avengers titles and cancel a bunch of them like they did with the X-Men ten years ago. Young Avengers isn't an ongoing anyway.

 

[sideburnking]

I still need to get 'Children's Crusade' #4, when did it come out?
I am liking the series for the most part. Just a couple problem areas:
1. The bad guys they were fighting in the beginning of part 1 were so lame and stupid. I mean, how long are comics going to keep featuring ultra- stereotypical far- right redneck terrorists as villains before they realize it's getting old? The Civil War storyline proved Marvel can handle political commentary in a subtle, effective way, but this has all the subtlety of a sledgehammer. I'm just glad they were taken out quickly and never acknowledged again beyond the realization of how powerful/ unstable Wiccan's abilities proved to be when fighting them.
2. I know Wiccan's the star of this comic, but they could really stand to do more with the other members of the Young Avengers in this, especially Patriot and Stature.
3. As others have noted, they made Wolverine way too much of a jerk in this.
Other than that, though, it works. The writing's good, the artwork's GREAT (I'll be getting my issues signed by Cheung and Morales at Megacon in a couple months), and the twists keep me guessing.

 

[Dread]

I still need to get 'Children's Crusade' #4, when did it come out?
I am liking the series for the most part. Just a couple problem areas:
1. The bad guys they were fighting in the beginning of part 1 were so lame and stupid. I mean, how long are comics going to keep featuring ultra- stereotypical far- right redneck terrorists as villains before they realize it's getting old? The Civil War storyline proved Marvel can handle political commentary in a subtle, effective way, but this has all the subtlety of a sledgehammer. I'm just glad they were taken out quickly and never acknowledged again beyond the realization of how powerful/ unstable Wiccan's abilities proved to be when fighting them.
2. I know Wiccan's the star of this comic, but they could really stand to do more with the other members of the Young Avengers in this, especially Patriot and Stature.
3. As others have noted, they made Wolverine way too much of a jerk in this.
Other than that, though, it works. The writing's good, the artwork's GREAT (I'll be getting my issues signed by Cheung and Morales at Megacon in a couple months), and the twists keep me guessing.

1. To be fair, the Sons Of The Serpent are a very old band of villains who have clashed with superheroes many times, including the Avengers. They recently popped up in TASKMASTER #1, seeking the bounty on him. As for your question - when will comics stop using "ultra- stereotypical far- right redneck terrorists as villains" because "it's getting old" - there are two answers. The first is when liberals stop writing comic books, or at least when politics become less polarized and the idea of a "moderate" emerges again. The second is when there stop being ultra-stereotypical, far right lunatics who make news in the U.S. (or who appear as political pundits; there are extreme lunatics on both sides of the political commentary angle - so much so that it is easy to relate to pre-WWII Europeans, stuck between Fascists and Communists). I do agree that the metaphor was blunt, but many avenues of America have long had issues with homosexuals for reasons that to younger people in more blue-state areas seem bizarre. You'd think gay marriage would be legal in New York and California, the most gay-friendly states in the union, but they're not. "Don't Ask Don't Tell" was JUST reversed, and it only took 15+ years. There are far too many people out there who care more about what two men (or women) do in the privacy of their own homes than how their local and federal politicians are robbing them blind and dooming their economic future.

In terms of politics, most people write as if they're preaching to the choir.

2. I agree with you about Wiccan hogging the book. These characters are now 5-6 years old and many of them have not evolved past the cipher stage. Speed/Tommy especially needs to get some additional focus. The rest of the characters are just lost in a sea of the plot and other characters that only Billy is rising to the fore. True, Stature and Jonas got to be MIGHTY AVENGERS a while, but that leaves the rest. Hulkling doesn't do much but interact with Billy. Kate doesn't do much but be bossy to show that she's a better leader than Patriot is. I think the fundamental problem is that the YOUNG AVENGERS are not so much "the next generation of Avengers" but a gang of side-kicks that no hero wants (because Marvel heroes would rather teenage wards kill themselves, endanger the public with inexperience and then whine about it than dare inconvenience themselves taking them under their wings - the adult Avengers were just as clueless with Rick Jones back in the 60's)

3. I haven't seen Wolverine written this poorly since "X-MEN ORIGINS: WOLVERINE".

The rest of the book isn't bad, but some of these flaws are major. I've still seen nothing here that screams, "ONLY Allen Heinberg could have written this, so it was worth the wait." I imagine Christos Gage, Zeb Wells, Chris Yost, Jeff Parker, Fred Van Lente, or any number of writers could have worked from a general plotline from editorial and produced something that was, at worst, just as "good" as what Heinberg has penned.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Civil War was subtle?

 

[JewishHobbit]

Organicist.

I'd much rather see Cho, a few of the Young Avengers, and some other young heroes form a new New Warriors team. The Young Avengers, however you slice it, are always gonna be derivative of the Avengers. It's right there in their name. I think the New Warriors would be a great banner to turn around after Civil War and that random-ass reboot and turn into Marvel's answer the Teen Titans.

I'd have loved that but I think it'd need to be a blend of young characters from all over the Marvel Universe for it to work.

Amadeus Cho
Stature
Vision 2.0
Phobos
Stonewall
Quake
Nico Minoru
Victor Mancha
Rockslide
Anole
Hellion
Wind Dancer/Reniscence
Chamber/Decibel
Gravity
Scarlet Spider (one of the MVP ones)
Komodo

Pick 6 or 7 of these characters and I think it'd be a very interesting book. But to sell it'd need a key player, perhaps as a trainer or leader that's a somewhat popular character. I'd be curious if maybe Professor Xavier expanded his dream to include all mankind and began teaching a team of young mutant/non-mutant heroes.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I think that the Young Avengers should add in Spider-Girl, Amadeus, and keep Iron Lad. I think the biggest problem with the team that it has simply remained Patriot, Hawkeye, Wiccan, Stature, Vision, Speed, and Hulkling for way too long. Let some new blood in. Spider-Girl would fit in because she isn't a direct sidekick to Spider-Man, but has that vague connection like Patriot/Captain America. I think Amadeus could really spice things up. And I think Teen Kang would just be plain awesome.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Keep Iron Lad but I'm iffy on the other two. I'd rather see Kristoff, the adopted son of Doom who was fairly heroic in the 90's FF comics. He has history with Cassie and her father (a crush on Cassie actually) and I think there could be some good stories there.

I've not been reading Thunderstrike but the son of the original Thunderstrike could be interesting as well.

 

[Dread]

Civil War was subtle?

I think he meant that it was capitalizing on a then current political environment.

It was subtle if you thought the Bush Administration in general and Conservatism in particular are/were evil.

I'd have loved that but I think it'd need to be a blend of young characters from all over the Marvel Universe for it to work.

Amadeus Cho
Stature
Vision 2.0
Phobos
Stonewall
Quake
Nico Minoru
Victor Mancha
Rockslide
Anole
Hellion
Wind Dancer/Reniscence
Chamber/Decibel
Gravity
Scarlet Spider (one of the MVP ones)
Komodo

Pick 6 or 7 of these characters and I think it'd be a very interesting book. But to sell it'd need a key player, perhaps as a trainer or leader that's a somewhat popular character. I'd be curious if maybe Professor Xavier expanded his dream to include all mankind and began teaching a team of young mutant/non-mutant heroes.

Professor X would never do that. The moment M-Day happened and half the Academy X cadets lost their powers, they were kicked off the mansion lawn and onto buses in 5 minutes. Where they subsequently got blown up. It was a great example of "co-existence". Preach about living together in peace with human beings, but only holing up in a mansion with your own kind and limiting interactions to only emergencies. Cyclops has kept that going, only become more militaristic.

I'm iffy on the notion of breaking up certain teams like the Runaways or the Secret Warriors, even if it may have to happen for them to move on. You know that if any character broke away from the Runaways, it would be Molly and no one else. That's the one Marvel's pushed the most outside the rest of them. Nico had a one-shot for MYSTIC ARCANA, but that was only by obligation to the premise.

All of that sort of speculation is moot when books like YOUNG ALLIES can't see a 7th issue and AVENGERS ACADEMY may limp to a 12th.

I think that the Young Avengers should add in Spider-Girl, Amadeus, and keep Iron Lad. I think the biggest problem with the team that it has simply remained Patriot, Hawkeye, Wiccan, Stature, Vision, Speed, and Hulkling for way too long. Let some new blood in. Spider-Girl would fit in because she isn't a direct sidekick to Spider-Man, but has that vague connection like Patriot/Captain America. I think Amadeus could really spice things up. And I think Teen Kang would just be plain awesome.

The problem is those are long term plans for the YA as a franchise, and Marvel has refused to make them without Allen Heinberg, and will continue to fail to make any until this CRUSADE is over and he either commits to more or officially backs off and says, "I'm done" and someone else can come in. Assuming that Axel Alonso has more backbone about that sort of thing than Joe Quesada.

Spider-Girl may not be a bad fit, nor a few of her allies from YOUNG ALLIES.

One fundamental problem is in order for YOUNG AVENGERS to really work as a premise, you need to genuinely believe these are the Avengers of the future. And they're not. They may be fine characters, but while Kate Bishop may call herself Hawkeye, no one treats her as the next Hawkeye. No one will confuse Hulkling for either Hulk or Capt. Marvel. Wiccan's connection to the Scarlet Witch is a scarlet letter. Some writers confuse this new Vision with the old one (like Ed Brubaker). The only one of them with a decent legacy connection is Stature, but she hasn't done much since MIGHTY AVENGERS ended. Instead the YA often feel like sidekicks in a world where no one wants them. Like virtually every young hero. Marvel is so eager to be the opposite of DC that their adult heroes are incredibly inconsiderate to anyone under drinking age in a costume. Even the X-Men these days treat their cadets like canon fodder, completely expendable if an older character must be saved.

Keep Iron Lad but I'm iffy on the other two. I'd rather see Kristoff, the adopted son of Doom who was fairly heroic in the 90's FF comics. He has history with Cassie and her father (a crush on Cassie actually) and I think there could be some good stories there.

I've not been reading Thunderstrike but the son of the original Thunderstrike could be interesting as well.

Kristoff last appeared in SPIDER-MAN AND THE FANTASTIC FOUR #4, and it was actually a damn good story (by Christos Gage). I expect no one else to jump on it, though. He apparently has his own armor again and wants to completely depose and destroy Dr. Doom. He also was angry at the Fantastic Four for seemingly abandoning him, although he relented his attack when it was shown they hadn't. It was about 12 years since he was last seen before then and I'll be stunned if he shows up in less than another 12 years. I do agree about the potential, but it will likely remain untapped.

The Avengers Academy has been noted as the ideal place for Thunderstrike Jr. to go to in his own mini. But, again, that was presume that it lasts beyond a year and Gage wants to share a character with DeFalco.

The fundamental problem with these "youngsters", even characters that have been around over 6 years now, and why they fail to connect to audiences and retailers and last a while, is because they rely on a premise that can never be achieved. The ideal of "these are the new blood of the Marvel U." is a fraud, a lie, and a sham, and everyone knows it. The old guard will never retire, never die, never go away. That's purely for commercial reasons of course, but it is still there. So long as there is a Spider-Man, a Spider-Woman, a Madam Web even, there is really no reason for Spider-Girl to exist, no void to fill. Night-Thrasher in some ways could have been the Tony Stark of the 90's, only Tony Stark was still alive and well. Ever since the end of the 90's, when two New Warriors were Avengers, Marvel has done a poor job of having some of these characters rise through ranks. Sure, Nova was a SECRET AVENGER, for all of 4 issues and he did NADA. Justice & Firestar were Avengers for YEARS, and had MANY ADVENTURES with them. Dan Slott, bless his heart, genuinely tried to do that with Stature and Vision Jr. as Avengers.

I think if Marvel were genuinely serious about their newer characters, they would do as an event a longer version of DC's "world without grown ups" thing. DC used that to help promote and launch YOUNG JUSTICE, which was such a bad comic it only lasted 50 issues (sarcasm). Something would happen and every well known, established super hero and heroine would be GONE. Poof. Vanished. Staff writers for 6-12 months would basically be handled whatever younger characters they wanted and would roll from there. It would be a huge gamble and even sales suicide, but to be honest Marvel is "eating themselves to death" like Pizza The Hut from "SPACEBALLS" in terms of comic sales anyway. And it would take nothing short of that to make retailers and fans give a **** about any of these younger characters. They could even get cheeky about DC and go, "They bring you the SILVER AGE, we bring you the NEW AGE" or whatever. And that's the premise. The adults are all gone. Now it's your time to put up or shut up, Young Marvel Heroes. You up for it? And not even the readers have a choice. The dilemma is that all of the fans may just jump off, but maybe, just maybe, if Marvel lowered prices and didn't write garbage (and hide their gems among it), that might not happen. Daffy idea, I know. But I honestly feel that is the only way you are ever going to get any hype around any character made after the year 2000, or even 1995.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I think that the Young Avengers should add in Spider-Girl, Amadeus, and keep Iron Lad. I think the biggest problem with the team that it has simply remained Patriot, Hawkeye, Wiccan, Stature, Vision, Speed, and Hulkling for way too long. Let some new blood in. Spider-Girl would fit in because she isn't a direct sidekick to Spider-Man, but has that vague connection like Patriot/Captain America. I think Amadeus could really spice things up. And I think Teen Kang would just be plain awesome.

Really? You think the roster is the biggest problem? Not that they were effectively put on hold for like 4 years by Heinberg's ego and Joe Q's desperation for big TV names, only to return with a thoroughly underwhelming series so far?

 

[Dread]

Really? You think the roster is the biggest problem? Not that they were effectively put on hold for like 4 years by Heinberg's ego and Joe Q's desperation for big TV names?

That was the other problem, yes.

So far at least, the sales for CHILDREN'S CRUSADE have remained steady around 35k. Which isn't the biggest audience, and maybe half what it was in 2005, but it's better than some. Most new launches would kill for 35k and to stay there.