First Avenger "Over There"....The USO plot point thread

[Webhead2006]

well this will probably be a big darn sticking point for us fans to debate over for the next yr. I cant wait to we have more details to get a closer feel on what will likely be happening in these scenes. But we fans here are probably not going to agree 100% over this whole USO plot. And for me yea i could see it working like some of us been discussing about. But then also on the other hand things could totally go a 180 degrees and it could be an aspect that screws up the film. But i will remain more optimistic and hope for the best out of this.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I am not denying that the USO was important in this era. The issue man of us have is that it shows the governments shortsightedness. It makes the creation of Captain America the legend an accident instead of something that was created on purpose. The creation of Cap isnt tied in to the Red Skull

How would it be seen as an accident? I see it as the US not being able to improvise and, yeah, shortsightedness like you said after a key loss (the scientist and his data), but I wouldn't see it as an accident. And imo Captain America could still be created in response to the Red Skull.

I know what you're thinking "Why would you still keep Captain America on the sideline instead of fighting the Red Skull? It shows the governments incompetence." Well you're right in a nutshell though the government wouldn't be incompetent as much as it would just be confused. They want more supersoldiers and they have no idea on how to create another nor if the one they have would survive.

So to be safe, they put him in a USO show. Johnston never said how long he would be in the show it could even just be for a few days before he decides to fight.

 

[roach]

How would it be seen as an accident? I see it as the US not being able to improvise and, yeah, shortsightedness like you said after a key loss (the scientist and his data), but I wouldn't see it as an accident. And imo Captain America could still be created in response to the Red Skull.

I know what you're thinking "Why would you still keep Captain America on the sideline instead of fighting the Red Skull? It shows the governments incompetence." Well you're right in a nutshell though the government wouldn't be incompetent as much as it would just be confused. They want more supersoldiers and they have no idea on how to create another nor if the one they have would survive.

So to be safe, they put him in a USO show. Johnston never said how long he would be in the show it could even just be for a few days before he decides to fight.

I just dont see The US Government putting him on the sidelines even after finding out they cant make anymore...it would be like Gen Ross giving the SSS to Blonksy and then no having him fight the Hulk and putting him on American Idol.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I just dont see The US Government putting him on the sidelines even after finding out they cant make anymore...it would be like Gen Ross giving the SSS to Blonksy and then no having him fight the Hulk and putting him on American Idol.

I wonder how that went.......

There's a huge difference between American Idol and a USO show though.

And they're putting him in the USO shows to

- Keep him close
- And run tests so they could get clues on how to recreate the SSS. After seeing the incredibly Hulk this could be the way they get recreated version of the SSS.

 

[roach]

There's a huge difference between American Idol and a USO show though.

Yes I know..I've been to a few USO shows

And they're putting him in the USO shows to

- Keep him close
- And run tests so they could get clues on how to recreate the SSS. After seeing the incredibly Hulk this could be the way they get recreated version of the SSS.

you are adding to it again. The only thing we know is that the put him in the USO show because they dont want to risk losing him in the war.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Well I am thinking of these things as I write.

 

[roach]

nothing wrong with thinking of the possibilities but your possibilities may not be in the film

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Of course, we are all thinking of what could happen but at this point only the people working on the film knows what will happen.

 

[Rage]

you are adding to it

JJ himself said that Cap goes AWOL to save a friend... that's not adding to it, but extrapolating JJ's meaning of a Friend in need.

I think that you are being a little to confined by your "inside the quote" thinking. Just because JJ said this is how the movie is going to be...doesn't mean it is how the movie will end up... or... that is the only thing that will be in the movie. So when people speculate on the way the USO fits in the the "bigger picture" of the movie... you really shouldn't say, "NO! JJ SAID THIS... NOT THAT... SO THAT WILL NOT BE IN THE MOVIE."

We are talking about a quote from the director who has yet to be on a set with a finished script and cameras rolling... ANYTHING can change up till that point.... so why are you being stuck on an early quote that JJ threw out there during his Wolfman Press Junket?

 

[Webhead2006]

totally rage we really dont know what joe said back during wolfman release will be what is ultimately shot and is in the script at that point. Sure we are still more then liking going to have the uso thing since it has its purpose. But we dont know how many scenes it will be, how long it will be, and all the aspects that will be going on in said scenes.

 

[Punisher_MAX]

this is why the USO plot point makes perfect sense:

1. as a Cap fan i honestly think the costume is dumb, why would ANYONE run out infont of German Artillery and Firepower, regardless if theyre super solider or not, in a blue flag costume? He's a super soldier but he's not immortal and if the US Govt wanted to use him as a Super Soldier it wouldnt have been to be running around in a costume that makes him a huge bullseye, hes not immortal. Steve Rogers was designed to be a Super SOLDIER, not Captain America, so making him a symbol of American Perfection and Patriotism vs the US Govt trashing their only untested subject( in the field) that cannot be recreated makes perfect sense.

2. Now this adds conflict to Steve who WANTS to fight, who wants to be out there fighting alongside his brothers and he's stuck performing in the USO, wasted away. Him going AWOL and realizing how important being Cap was to the morale of US Soldiers and of the American people inspires him to don a more battle ready costume to lead his men to victory.

i dont see what the damn problem with the plot point is.

 

[Rage]

This is obviously going to end up being the "mechanical vs. organic" debate of the Captain America movie.

 

[afan]

This is obviously going to end up being the "mechanical vs. organic" debate of the Captain America movie.

More analogous for me would be the......"is Superman the father"....."why the kid at all"..... bruhaha, as that was a plot point.

 

[marcvader]

I couldn't compare the creation of a character that effects continuity with creating a reason for the costume. Completely different magnitude of change.

 

[Dragon]

this is why the USO plot point makes perfect sense:

1. as a Cap fan i honestly think the costume is dumb, why would ANYONE run out infont of German Artillery and Firepower, regardless if theyre super solider or not, in a blue flag costume?

So how does the USO plot point help solve this? Regardless he winds up in the "dumb" costume. And if you think he looks dumb fighting in it, he'll look even dumber singing and dancing in it.

But your point isn't valid anyway, since most people, including Johnston don't think the red-white & blue costume looks dumb. Otherwise he'd be rallying to have it completely removed. You can find someone who thinks every costume on every hero is "dumb". And you can find someone who thinks its great. Cap's 70 year run reflect that there are more in the latter camp.

As for German artillery and fire power. Fireproof costume. Indestructible shield. Battle-trained enhanced reflexes. Supreme fghting skills. The USO plot point doesn't effect this in anyway.

He's a super soldier but he's not immortal and if the US Govt wanted to use him as a Super Soldier it wouldnt have been to be running around in a costume that makes him a huge bullseye, hes not immortal. Steve Rogers was designed to be a Super SOLDIER, not Captain America, so making him a symbol of American Perfection and Patriotism vs the US Govt trashing their only untested subject( in the field) that cannot be recreated makes perfect sense.

If you're a Cap fan, then you'd know that Steve was quite proud to be Captain America. And while America is far from perfect, it beats the hell out of a country that was a police state engaged in ethnic cleansing. Certainly the film should address the downside of Steve's being a symbol. And of course it should shine the light on America's ills. But never should it be ashamed of it. That's his story.

And how does the gov't ever become confident in this "untested subject"? BY TESTING HIM. Not by wasting more time by putting him on a USO stage.

2. Now this adds conflict to Steve who WANTS to fight, who wants to be out there fighting alongside his brothers and he's stuck performing in the USO, wasted away. Him going AWOL and realizing how important being Cap was to the morale of US Soldiers and of the American people inspires him to don a more battle ready costume to lead his men to victory.

i dont see what the damn problem with the plot point is.

So he goes out in the "dumb" costume anyway. Tell me- what makes it less dumb now? As for his wanting to fight but can't, the USO plot point isn't the only way to go. Steve could be stuck in a testing facility being poked and prodded ad nauseum. Same result, but via a more believable and far less silly path.

 

[TikkiEXX]

how do we know they dont test him? i dont recall anyone saying that they dont. and is a fireproof costume gonna stop a bullet? can he block a mortar shell with that shield without getting blown to bits? who knows maybe they wont test him, but we dont know that yet. dont even know if the suit is gonna be fireproof and all that. dont know much of anything actually. and please dont post those quotes from JJ again like its the final script or something

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

So he goes out in the "dumb" costume anyway. Tell me- what makes it less dumb now? As for his wanting to fight but can't, the USO plot point isn't the only way to go. Steve could be stuck in a testing facility being poked and prodded ad nauseum. Same result, but via a more believable and far less silly path.

Both are completely believable. Sure, you can go that path, but its more straightforward. The USO plot point is a more creative way of doing things while taking further look into the era before Cap goes off to fight. It not only gives him a costume, but gives him a reason to keep to the costume as it boosts soldiers morale by the sight of him leading them. Plus doesn't matter if the costume's blue as long as it's capable of withstanding gunfire.

And the Costume is not dumb. God, people keep looking into these things a little too realistically.

 

[Punisher_MAX]

i sometimes wonder if fanboys listen to any sort of reason.

please explain to me the logic behind the united states government fighting a WAR creating a costumed hero to take out the opposition? sounds pretty damn stupid right? im pretty sure that the scientists werent thinking "man he'd look GREAT in a costume while hes out there fighting". Steve isnt ashamed of the costume, hes ashamed of the way hes being used, as propaganda instead of actually getting down and dirty and fighting alongside his brothers. The most logical way they were thinking of using Steve was as an Elite Commando used for undercover missions or as a platoon leader, he was made to be a SOLDIER.

like really, is that SO damn hard to understand?

so he takes a costume that became a symbol of hope, a symbol that inspired people and modified it to fight.

oh and it doesnt matter how amazing Cap is he can still DIE if a damn mortar shell hits him square in the chest.

if the government tests Steve and it fails then theyre screwed, they have no possible way to POSSIBLY" reverse engineer him. you dont just test something without a back up, did you fail a basic science course?

The USO makes sense because it WAS big during a time when many people were facing hardships and having Cap there as a symbol works.

He didnt just become Captain America, he earned it.

As for thinking the costume is "dumb", yeah its dumb to take a costume like that into a battlefield, lets think practicality here. I'm willing to believe a man has been enhanced to beyond human potential but doing it in a blue costume thats screaming "fire at me!" that isnt modified to be used in warfare is a bit much.

 

[Dragon]

Both are completely believable. Sure, you can go that path, but its more straightforward. The USO plot point is a more creative way of doing things while taking further look into the era before Cap goes off to fight. It not only gives him a costume, but gives him a reason to keep to the costume as it boosts soldiers morale by the sight of him leading them. Plus doesn't matter if the costume's blue as long as it's capable of withstanding gunfire.

And the Costume is not dumb. God, people keep looking into these things a little too realistically.

I didnt say the costume was dumb. Punisher_MAX did.

And the USO thing doesn't increase the morale of the soldiers. Seeing Cap on the battlefield does. So it still isn't needed.

And the test facility thing is far more logical. If Johnston's secondary reason for the USO thing is the government's fear that Cap would get killed on the battlefield, putting him on a USO stage wouldn't solve that. Testing and training him would.

 

[roach]

There are two trains of thought when some sits down to make a superhero movie. The first is taking the world of the superhero and bring us to it. This was demonstrated in Spider-man, Fantastic Four, X-men and Iron Man. In Spider-man's world being bitten by a genetically enhanced spider will give you spider powers. Being exposed to cosmic rays gives you the powers of the FF.Super powered mutants compete with humans for the title of alpha sapien. The various tech and equip that Tony Stark invents is beyond the capabilities of current technology. These world greatly resemble ours save for the people running around in brightly colored costumes....cause lets face it anyone who does this in our world is considered a nutcase.
The other way of doing a superhero movie is by taking the hero and bringing it to our world. This was demonstrated in the movie Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. In this world the fantastical elements are removed. Mr Freeze, Killer Croc, Robin and Penguin as they appear in the comics will never grace the Nolan universe without modifications to make them real.
What does this have to do with Captain America??? Well its my belief that some people think this movie is going to be set in the real world...much like TDK. This gives way to the thinking that in no way would the US Government dress someone in the Cap costume and set him loose in WW2. Almost as if this movie is going to be Saving Private Ryan with Captain America in it. However they are correct. In no way would the US Government ever dress someone in the costume in real life.
It is my belief that this movie will be set in Captain America's world or even better the Marvel Universe. A world of super science discoveries, thunder gods and hulks. It is in this universe that the government would make a supersoldier ,give him a costume and an indestructable shield and send him against a Nazi with a red skull mask.

So can we please stop bringing up realism????

 

[TikkiEXX]

well id say its set in the Marvel Movieverse, which while still not completely realistic is a bit more grounded in reality than the comic universe. and i know theres nothing realistic about hulks or thunder gods but they make an effort to make it feel realistic in the context of their movies. we can debate til the cows come home wether or not the USO thing makes it more realistic but apparantly the people in charge of the movie think it helps. and i remember when the Cap movie was first announced someone actually did say they wanted it to be like Saving Private Ryan with superheroes and they wanted it to be kind of gritty and all that. maybe theyre making a mistake and will fall flat on their faces but im not gonna judge it until i know more.

 

[Dragon]

i sometimes wonder if fanboys listen to any sort of reason.

Me too. But so far that hasn't worked with you guys.

please explain to me the logic behind the united states government fighting a WAR creating a costumed hero to take out the opposition? sounds pretty damn stupid right? im pretty sure that the scientists werent thinking "man he'd look GREAT in a costume while hes out there fighting".

Here's the logic:

In this FICTIONAL REALM where super soldiers can exist the Nazis have a man in costume called The Red Skull. He's a propaganda tool used to generate terror. The US Government, realizing that there will be ONLY ONE super soldier think they need to get as much bang for their buck- and turn him into a propaganda tool as well. But rather than creating a figure that will generate fear, they want one that will generate pride and present the American Way as being one of righteousness. Also, they don't want this single super soldier to become a celebrity in his own right. So he wears a mask. He doesn't represent himself, he represents ALL of America.

Then- of course, the suit offers him protection. It's fire-resistent. The shield protects him from impact, but the suit protects him from heat and also offers some padding against falls and shrapnel.

And, being that comic books and movies are art- there's a need for the suit to present style. If you're going to argue against Cap's costume, you have to argue aganist every cotume in not just comic book films but sci-fi films, fantasy films- hell even in the real world.

Steve isnt ashamed of the costume, hes ashamed of the way hes being used, as propaganda instead of actually getting down and dirty and fighting alongside his brothers.

No he wasn't. Point to a reference to this in the source material. WW2, unlike Vietnam or Iraq was supported by most Americans. So US propaganda was welcomed. That's why the comic book character of Captain America was created in the first place.

The most logical way they were thinking of using Steve was as an Elite Commando used for undercover missions or as a platoon leader, he was made to be a SOLDIER.

And he is. Being a soldier has nothing to do with the color of uniform you wear. It isn't as if standard US soldier gear offered any particular protection.

like really, is that SO damn hard to understand?

so he takes a costume that became a symbol of hope, a symbol that inspired people and modified it to fight.

Exactly. Only in the source material, the gov't guys make it for battle FROM THE BEGINNING. They never send him out in just a flag suit. Steve doesn't have to redesign it. So the USO plot point is completely unnecessary.

oh and it doesnt matter how amazing Cap is he can still DIE if a damn mortar shell hits him square in the chest.

Thus the INDESTRUCTIBLE SHIELD. I mean, I don't know where you're going with this, because he's never outfitted with Iron Man type armor.

if the government tests Steve and it fails then theyre screwed, they have no possible way to POSSIBLY" reverse engineer him. you dont just test something without a back up, did you fail a basic science course?

And Peter Parker could've died from the radioactive Spider venom. Bruce Banner could've been vaporized by the gamma bomb blast. Tony' Stark's weakened heart could fail regardless of the chest plate. Superman could be shot through the heart with a kryptonie bullet. They all could die, and yet they don't. And again- the USO thing changes none of this.

The USO makes sense because it WAS big during a time when many people were facing hardships and having Cap there as a symbol works.

A synbol of what? He's a guy in a costume singing and dancing. He hasn't been in battle. He's just a clown.

He didnt just become Captain America, he earned it.

Right. On the battlefield. Not singing and dancing on a stage.

As for thinking the costume is "dumb", yeah its dumb to take a costume like that into a battlefield, lets think practicality here. I'm willing to believe a man has been enhanced to beyond human potential but doing it in a blue costume thats screaming "fire at me!" that isnt modified to be used in warfare is a bit much.

Uh.. who said it isn't made for battle? Even the POS '91 Cap movie said within seconds of showing him in costume that it was fireproof. The scaling on the upper body has always been described as chainmail. I thought you said you were a Cap fan.

The only one talking about putting Steve in just a suit of unprotective red white and blue fabric is Johnston and you.

 

[roach]

Why would the US Government put Steve in a costume:

1) During his reign Alexander the Great dressed some of his soldiers in armor to make them seem 7-8 ft tall. It demoralized his enemies as they were afraid to battle giants.
2) Vlad Tepes would impale his enemies in hideous ways which he ended up getting known as Vlad the Impaler. His infamy rose to the point that people thought he was avampire and wouldnt fight against him...inspiring Bram Stoker to make him Dracula
3) In fuedal Japan the Samurai would rid into battle with demon masks on which would demoralize their enemies
4) In WW1 Manfred von Richthofen painted his plane a bright color red and became known as the Red Baron. He is documented as having more kills than any other pilot in WW1 and many times it was against superior numbers and superior aircraft

there are many more.....

 

[Punisher_MAX]

I give up, theres no real damn point arguing. Either you agree with the USO thing or you dont, i personally think it adds more depth to the character and its a great way to explain the meaning and importance of the costume, if you feel otherwise then its your loss, i'll be enjoying the movie when it comes out.

 

[roach]

well id say its set in the Marvel Movieverse, which while still not completely realistic is a bit more grounded in reality than the comic universe. and i know theres nothing realistic about hulks or thunder gods but they make an effort to make it feel realistic in the context of their movies. we can debate til the cows come home wether or not the USO thing makes it more realistic but apparantly the people in charge of the movie think it helps. and i remember when the Cap movie was first announced someone actually did say they wanted it to be like Saving Private Ryan with superheroes and they wanted it to be kind of gritty and all that. maybe theyre making a mistake and will fall flat on their faces but im not gonna judge it until i know more.

I was discussing the realism in terms of the costume. It is believeable that the US would stick him on the USO circuit...we are debating if its logical. Yes people say they want SPR but there is no way to do that with this type of movie. Cap is not gritty. Cap's movie should be done more in the lines of Indiana Jones and the Rocketeer(which is how JJ got the job).