The Dark Knight Rises Penguin or Black Mask?

[griffolyon12]

there really should be an option for both, but penguin has been done before and other than two face and joker, i really dont want rehashed villains, give me something new!

I agree with those sentiments.

 

[SUPERSEBAS]

Black Mask would be a similar thing like Scarecrow. for me see a good pinguin version is more interesting,and Bob Hoskins is the perfect fisical actor to do it, but Nolan is not to much interested in the actors look a like, so in order to keep collecting best actor from the Oscars, Philip Seymour Hoffman would be perfect, and he show to be in a similar villian line of the Joker in Mission: Impossible III

 

[The Guard]

I read some of these responses, and I just wonder how many people who are bashing The Penguin's villain potential even realize his actual role in the larger Batman mythology. I wonder how many Penguin stories they've actually read, or if they really think he's just the guy who owns a lounge. Even as a cheesy supervillain, The Penguin was fantastic. And as a mob boss, he's grown into a far more interesting, and far more relevant character.

Again, Black Mark could work...and has worked in spurts, but he's basically a thug. Not terribly intelligent, not terribly clever, and not terribly interesting beyond his visual appearance. Almost every major character element he possesses is one that The Penguin also has, sans the False Face Society and the torture.

The Penguin is a far, far more interesting character. Black Mask, to me, just often feels derivative of other characters. Fine as a standalone, but gimmicky in a way that doesn't add a whole lot to the overall mythology itself. And yeah, The Penguin is gimmicky too, but at least his gimmicks are interesting, and varied. Black Mask has...a black mask.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

What about his ties to Bruce Wayne? He is basically a evil Bruce Wayne. I think it could make for an interesting dynamic to see Roman Sionis targeting Wayne Industries and Black Mask targeting the rest of the mob and Batman himself. Batman has to figure out who this Black Mask is, but at the same time contend with Roman Sionis trying to discredit his company and therefore, his family name. The whole time not knowing they are the same person, and Black Mask/Roman Sionis doesn't realize Bruce Wayne is Batman. Could be very interesting. Both of them think they are fighting seperate entities but really, they are fighting the same person.

 

[The Guard]

What about them? Ties to Bruce Wayne alone don't exactly make him interesting as a character. If we're talking about "comparisons" to Bruce Wayne, then The Pengun wins in that department as well. The contrast is far more interesting.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Did you read the rest of my post?

 

[The Guard]

Yes. I did. I didn't respond because it's not a particularly brilliant concept. It's not even all that interesting to me.

I'll break it down, though.

What about his ties to Bruce Wayne? He is basically a evil Bruce Wayne.

Not really. How's he like Bruce Wayne? Because he's rich? That makes him yet another "evil socialite". Which, interestingly enough is also an element Cobblepot has, with elements that allow for even more contrast between them, making him the better choice in that regard.

I think it could make for an interesting dynamic to see Roman Sionis targeting Wayne Industries and Black Mask targeting the rest of the mob and Batman himself.

It could be a decent angle to play. This is also an element Penguin could have, and has had, in the comics.

Batman has to figure out who this Black Mask is, but at the same time contend with Roman Sionis trying to discredit his company and therefore, his family name.

Maybe, but we essentially saw that already in BATMAN BEGINS with Earle.

Unless there's a relevant theme behind it, the "duality"/"I don't know I'm fighting this guy" thing just isn't that interesting to me.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Where did we see any of that in BB? Ra's wasn't trying to attack W.E and Batman or discredit the family name. Ra's just wanted to cleanse Gotham.

Duality is a big part of the Batman mythos. Black Mask/Roman Sionis is the evil version of Batman/Bruce Wayne. There could be an interesting story made out of that.

I do like Penguin, but what more could he offer other than being a arms dealer who owns a club and has delusions of grandeur? He could be an interesting supporting character, I like the idea of him thinking he is an aristocrat when in reality he is just another crim. But I couldn't see him as a main villain or a nemesis to both Bruce and Batman like Black Mask can be.

 

[The Guard]

Duality is a part of the mythology, but there needs to be a more interesting angle than "We are both fighting each other and we just don't know it". Again, Black Mask could work on some level. Almost any villain could.

I do like Penguin, but what more could he offer other than being a arms dealer who owns a club and has delusions of grandeur?

Off the top of my head?

-Much better contrast of character elements with Wayne than Sionis
-Intelligence, and via this intelligence, great dialogue
-Freaking awesome gadgets and gimmicks
-Political character and story elements, not just mob or "freak" ones
-A far more interesting and varied relationship with Batman, the mob, and the freak population of Gotham

 

[Mutagen]

This Black Mask is far more interesting IMO;

 

[Rasputin911]

What about his ties to Bruce Wayne? He is basically a evil Bruce Wayne. I think it could make for an interesting dynamic to see Roman Sionis targeting Wayne Industries and Black Mask targeting the rest of the mob and Batman himself. Batman has to figure out who this Black Mask is, but at the same time contend with Roman Sionis trying to discredit his company and therefore, his family name. The whole time not knowing they are the same person, and Black Mask/Roman Sionis doesn't realize Bruce Wayne is Batman. Could be very interesting. Both of them think they are fighting seperate entities but really, they are fighting the same person.

All Batman villains are basically evil Bruce Waynes.

You could say that about Joker, Two-Face, Penguin, Riddler, Scarecrow, Ras al Ghul, BM, or whoever...that's why he has the best rogues gallery

 

[Rasputin911]

The penguin supporters seem to have much better reasoning than the Blackie Maskies

 

[Spider-Bat]

They could easily have both the way they have balanced the villians so well, but I'd rather see Penguin, played by Jack Black, or maybe even Eddie Izzard.

I started a Pengy thread not seeing one in existance and ofcourse all the whiners had to complain and complain about my choice of Jack Black. Give him a chance. No one thought of Ledger as a good choice right away. Then some had to say Black is nothing compared to Heath but that's not what I meant, it had nothing to do with one being a great actor next to another it's just that Jack's done some good work and can pull off a dramatic/action roll.

Some people need to chill out and stop being such tight assed ******s.
We're talking about something fun here people, not a reason to start arguments all the time, this is why I stopped really talking on SHH it's nothing but negative B.S.!

 

[Mutagen]

While I agree in wanting to see the Penguin, I have to disagree with your casting choice. Black has too much high energy to play Penguin imo, I see Penguin as a classy, slower paced (at least compared to Black) villain, and if he tried to be serious, I'd see a Carrey / Riddler related theme going.

As for Izzard, not as much energy as Black, but still the Carrey / Riddler theme happening, seeing as how I've only seen him in comedies.

That's just my thoughts.

 

[Melkior]

My knowledge on Penguin isn't as extensive as others, but I do know a good deal about him to vouch for the character. I think he's interesting, I like the complex that he has, I like his intelligence, and he has a much less menacing appearance than a lot of people in Batman's rogue's gallery that sort of adds to the element of surprise. All of this would work fine in a Batman movie. I wouldn't mind seeing the Penguin, but in all honesty, I much prefer Black Mask. Whether Bruce Wayne will know it or not, he would have to contend with(I know this has probably been brought up a dozen times) Roman and his alter ego. And this has been offered throughout these boards because this concept IS a good and interesting concept, and this is something Batman in the Nolan series has never encountered.

Each villain has pushed Batman to a level he had never encountered. For BB, it was obviously fear, facing his own, facing Gotham's, and also he was facing an enemy who "knew" better than any other villain. Who knew his identity, who had the skills to challenge Batman physically. In TDK he had to face the unpredictability of the Joker, his madness, and his influence on Gotham and its white knight, "Two Face." If the rumors are true, then Batman will be dueling with his morals via Catwoman, will be pushed to the brink of his intelligence, Riddler, but nothing has really CHALLENGED his family name, his business. Roman can fit PERFECTLY with this, in ways the Penguin absolutely can't.

Yes, it's probably the same old reasoning for putting him in the movie, but it's a damn good one. And also add Black Mask running the mob, or somehow developing his false face society, with Batman on the run and his family legacy being endangered, is compelling IMHO. I can't really see Penguin pulling this off and representing the kind of dangers BM can. To each his own I guess. I gotta' start posting here more often, geez.

 

[Majik1387]

Great post.

 

[The Guard]

Am I to understand that Penguin somehow couldn't threaten Wayne's name/business?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

All Batman villains are basically evil Bruce Waynes.

You could say that about Joker, Two-Face, Penguin, Riddler, Scarecrow, Ras al Ghul, BM, or whoever...that's why he has the best rogues gallery

What so those people you mentioned are rich socialites who own a rival corporation to Wayne Enterprises?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Am I to understand that Penguin somehow couldn't threaten Wayne's name/business?

Well not in the way that his has his own multi billion dollar corporation.

Penguin is ok. But I can't see him being the main villain for the whole film. I don't see how he could actually threaten Gotham itself, or Bruce Wayne for that matter. The best way to portray Penguin is something similar to how he was in NML IMO. But that would make him more of a nuisance rather than an actual threat to the citizens.

Black Mask could pose a much greater threat. To Gothams biggest corporation, Wayne Enterprises. To Batman himself. To the police. To the remaining, fractured and dis-organised mob. And to the citizens of Gotham by further fueling the madness on the streets with his cult.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Early 80s Black Mask was cool. But he wouldn't work on screen.

 

[batman11]

But I can't see him being the main villain for the whole film.

Can you see Black Mask as a main villain for the whole film?

 

[The Guard]

Well not in the way that his has his own multi billion dollar corporation.

He has a multi billion dollar crime empire, many businesses, and political ties. I fail to see the real difference in terms of story potential.

Penguin is ok. But I can't see him being the main villain for the whole film.

I don't really know that he needs to be. Although I'm sure he very well could be if need be.

I don't see how he could actually threaten Gotham itself, or Bruce Wayne for that matter.

You don't see how a growing crime empire could threaten Gotham City?

As for threatening Bruce...anything that threatens Batman or the safety of the people of Gotham threatens Bruce Wayne.

Black Mask could pose a much greater threat.

How so?

To Gothams biggest corporation, Wayne Enterprises. To Batman himself. To the police. To the remaining, fractured and dis-organised mob. And to the citizens of Gotham by further fueling the madness on the streets with his cult

Maybe. What sort of threat would he pose Wayne Enterprises? And would you really want to see Black Mask do something even Joker couldn't?

 

[bunk]

What about his ties to Bruce Wayne? He is basically a evil Bruce Wayne. I think it could make for an interesting dynamic to see Roman Sionis targeting Wayne Industries and Black Mask targeting the rest of the mob and Batman himself. Batman has to figure out who this Black Mask is, but at the same time contend with Roman Sionis trying to discredit his company and therefore, his family name. The whole time not knowing they are the same person, and Black Mask/Roman Sionis doesn't realize Bruce Wayne is Batman. Could be very interesting. Both of them think they are fighting seperate entities but really, they are fighting the same person.

Meh. Odds are this will already be happening with Tony Stark and Justin Hammer in Iron Man 2 to a certain extent. I don't need to see this played out in two different movies.

 

[Rasputin911]

What so those people you mentioned are rich socialites who own a rival corporation to Wayne Enterprises?

Penguin could fit that bill easily...and that's not what i meant.

You said Black mask was an evil bruce wayne. I'm saying all Batman villains (almost) could be called "evil bruce waynes", so that argument doesen't hold much water.

 

[Deaths Head II]

This Black Mask is far more interesting IMO;

If that Black Mask was the one we were voting on, I would go with him.